EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2412
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
micronesia
United States24777 Posts
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farvacola
United States18863 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 11 2020 21:41 micronesia wrote: The problem with the mindset of destroying statues made based on racist views, rather than preserving them (outside of town squares and the like) is it helps to erase the history which allowed for 60 foot statues of Robert E Lee to remain prominent for a hundred years. If we erase inconvenient history we will simply repeat it. no one is saying remove it from history books, just break a bunch of stone. Nothing I learned about the civil war was relayed to me from that statue. I completely reject the idea that a statue actually existing in some museum accomplishes anything. | ||
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micronesia
United States24777 Posts
On June 11 2020 21:49 Mohdoo wrote: no one is saying remove it from history books, just break a bunch of stone. Nothing I learned about the civil war was relayed to me from that statue. I completely reject the idea that a statue actually existing in some museum accomplishes anything. Without a physical statue the lesson of that statue will be lost from the history books... it's inevitable. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 11 2020 21:52 micronesia wrote: Without a physical statue the lesson of that statue will be lost from the history books... it's inevitable. all you've done is restate your post. We have pictures of it. We have books that include it. Please describe toe what I learn by seeing it in person rather than in pictures and text description | ||
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farvacola
United States18863 Posts
And yes, that includes thorough explication of complicating factors like how reliant Northern industry was on the productivity of enslaved black bodies. | ||
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micronesia
United States24777 Posts
On June 11 2020 21:55 Mohdoo wrote: all you've done is restate your post. We have pictures of it. We have books that include it. Please describe toe what I learn by seeing it in person rather than in pictures and text description Without the effort by society to maintain the statue (or at least, a recognizable portion that verifies the original scale) and continually put it into historical context, the pictures and descriptions related from the original statue will fall out of all practical history books and be effectively erased. Your request for me to describe what you learn by seeing the statues in person is a red herring when compared to your previous position rejecting the idea that the statues actually existing in some museum accomplishes anything. Farvacola also makes excellent points about preservation of this history. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
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micronesia
United States24777 Posts
On June 11 2020 22:15 Longshank wrote: To come whine about it now and expect protesters to preserve them seems silly. I'm not sure if pointing out the long-term unintended consequences of protesters tearing down historical statues is "whining" even if the local authorities failed to act in the years leading up to the 2020 protests. To be clear, I'm not specifically blaming protesters, but I would hope people in a politics discussion thread at least would stop and understand the argument why destroying (vice removing) some of these statues in anger may not be the best way to improve society in the long-term. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 11 2020 21:56 farvacola wrote: Museums don't accomplish anything as a matter of course, but they can accomplish things if they are well-curated. I think basically anyone that visits the Holocaust Museum, for example, comes away having learned something that they'd otherwise have a very difficult time accessing (the sheer volume and systematic nature of the Nazi death machine being the big one that stands out). Many, many people in the US are strikingly unfamiliar with just how integral slavery and subjugation were and are to the American Way, so fighting that awareness battle on all fronts seems like a good idea. And yes, that includes thorough explication of complicating factors like how reliant Northern industry was on the productivity of enslaved black bodies. I agree with everything you are saying. There is a certain level of understanding/comprehension that can only come from seeing something in person. This is particularly true of art. However, this statue of Robert E Lee does not allow people to better understand how integral slavery and subjugation were. From my understanding, you are saying since there is such a deficiency of empathy/understanding regarding the slave era, we should check every box we can in pursuit of getting more people up to speed. In general, I agree with that sentiment. But when I try to think about SPECIFICALLY this statue, we are able to see that Robert E Lee was a commander. We are able to see he was very well regarded and that he was a big rallying point at the time. This statue does not highlight the extent to slavery, the suffering it imparted, the ways our economy was 100% reliant on slavery. It doesn't do any of that. This specific statue is more valuable as something to be destroyed as a "fuck you" to that entire shit-head culture that is still pushing for MORE confederate monuments and retaining the confederate flag. The dynamics you are describing are not new to me, and I used to agree in a much more absolute way. In this instance, no, I do not think the insight this statue gives is significant in ways that matter. I think its destruction is much more important, given how important REL was to their cause. On June 11 2020 22:06 micronesia wrote: Without the effort by society to maintain the statue (or at least, a recognizable portion that verifies the original scale) and continually put it into historical context, the pictures and descriptions related from the original statue will fall out of all practical history books and be effectively erased. Your request for me to describe what you learn by seeing the statues in person is a red herring when compared to your previous position rejecting the idea that the statues actually existing in some museum accomplishes anything. Farvacola also makes excellent points about preservation of this history. I'm not trying to create a red herring and I'm sorry it came across that way. My point is that people aren't actually examining the specifics of this situation to see what exactly this is helping to articulate, how well it does that, and whether or not that actually justifies preserving such an ENORMOUS statue that represents such extreme admiration for such a terrible dude. I explained my position in more detail in response to Farvacola's post. I think you are both using generally good logic that applies to a wide variety of situations, but I'm not convinced that a deeper analysis yields the typical result of "we ought to preserve this" | ||
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farvacola
United States18863 Posts
That's why I said let's collect the statues even if they're in bits and pieces, if we can tell a true story about an America that got so frustrated with Confederate apologia that folks smashed Lost Cause statues to bits following George Floyd's murder, then there's hope left for this country. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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farvacola
United States18863 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 11 2020 22:24 farvacola wrote: To be clear, I don't think putting statues in a museum and celebrating a moment in history via public acts of condemnation are mutually exclusive, an appropriate historical narrative describing the cultivation and subsistence of Lost Cause ideas relative to public heroification via statues can and should include reference to this moment in time, where maybe public consensus had arrived at recognizing that pretending or implying that Confederate war criminals were anything but is yet another way that US society has tried to sweep its regressive character beneath a rug. That's why I said let's collect the statues even if they're in bits and pieces, if we can tell a true story about an America that got so frustrated with Confederate apologia that folks smashed Lost Cause statues to bits following Geroge Floyd's murder, then there's hope left for this country. Yeah, we can agree on that. Put a big tub of rubble on display and use it to show how justice was eventually served. I don't think anything else is appropriate or sufficiently valuable. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10904 Posts
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest. Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved. They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points? Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards. Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24025 Posts
On June 11 2020 21:52 micronesia wrote: Without a physical statue the lesson of that statue will be lost from the history books... it's inevitable. Wait, this wasn't sarcasm? | ||
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micronesia
United States24777 Posts
No, I actually think the "why those statues popped up" will be conveniently forgotten over time. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
That's just... Gutter level politics ? a grade-school complain ? I shouldn't be surprised anymore but... For the record, 32% of the polled identified as democrats, 25% as republicans, and 44% as independants or from another party. This is the only complaint that could be somewhat relevant (though it seems pretty usual), the other issues listed are bullshit or just wrong (they argue that it was an "adult" poll and not registered or likely voters for example, but the poll clearly separate registered voters stats from the pool of adults, and we are pretty far from the election so likely voters is not very useful yet, and in any case, duly mentioned in the poll results...) https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/politics/trump-campaign-cnn-poll/index.html the poll itself is here : http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/06/08/rel6a.-.race.and.2020.pdf | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24025 Posts
On June 11 2020 23:29 micronesia wrote: No, I actually think the "why those statues popped up" will be conveniently forgotten over time. It's bizarre to me that you think taking down statues is erasing history. I agree it is important to understand the history of the racists that helped lead us into our bloodiest conflict, or Columbus' genocidal terror campaign, but I think it is nonsensical to believe that will be diminished to any significant degree by removing these ugly eyesores. The biggest help they've been is drawing attention to the people that don't want to remove them imo. | ||
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micronesia
United States24777 Posts
On June 11 2020 23:38 GreenHorizons wrote: It's bizarre to me that you think taking down statues is erasing history. I agree it is important to understand the history of the racists that helped lead us into our bloodiest conflict, or Columbus' genocidal terror campaign, but I think it is nonsensical to believe that will be diminished to any significant degree by removing these ugly eyesores. The biggest help they've been is drawing attention to the people that don't want to remove them imo. I agree with taking them down. I just am questioning the wisdom of destroying them entirely. | ||
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