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On June 11 2020 23:42 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2020 23:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 11 2020 23:29 micronesia wrote:On June 11 2020 23:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 11 2020 21:52 micronesia wrote:On June 11 2020 21:49 Mohdoo wrote:On June 11 2020 21:41 micronesia wrote:
The problem with the mindset of destroying statues made based on racist views, rather than preserving them (outside of town squares and the like) is it helps to erase the history which allowed for 60 foot statues of Robert E Lee to remain prominent for a hundred years. If we erase inconvenient history we will simply repeat it. no one is saying remove it from history books, just break a bunch of stone. Nothing I learned about the civil war was relayed to me from that statue. I completely reject the idea that a statue actually existing in some museum accomplishes anything. Without a physical statue the lesson of that statue will be lost from the history books... it's inevitable. Wait, this wasn't sarcasm? No, I actually think the "why those statues popped up" will be conveniently forgotten over time. It's bizarre to me that you think taking down statues is erasing history. I agree it is important to understand the history of the racists that helped lead us into our bloodiest conflict, or Columbus' genocidal terror campaign, but I think it is nonsensical to believe that will be diminished to any significant degree by removing these ugly eyesores. The biggest help they've been is drawing attention to the people that don't want to remove them imo. I agree with taking them down. I just am questioning the wisdom of destroying them entirely.
I don't know anyone that I know of because of a statue or wouldn't without one. If it is the history (and wisdom gained from it) you're worried about, I'd advise taking a look at the actual educational curriculum around this stuff. The way we teach these people and events does far more to erase history than destroying a reactionary statue ever could.
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Did we discuss Trump holding his first rally in Tulsa?
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On June 12 2020 00:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Did we discuss Trump holding his first rally in Tulsa?
Using Juneteenth to rally a bunch of white supremacists at the site of a famous terror campaign by white Amerika is a little on the nose if you ask me.
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On June 12 2020 00:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2020 00:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Did we discuss Trump holding his first rally in Tulsa? Using Juneteenth to rally a bunch of white supremacists at the site of a famous terror campaign by white Amerika is a little on the nose if you ask me.
Just after referring to the Secret Service as the SS too. We're at the point where the mask is off and in the trash, but pretending it's just to upset folks and not because they're actual white supremacists.
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On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once.
Columbus is like Italian American pride these days. I think the nasty comparisons is just like telling people "fuck these immigrants," and you might as well just go through every revered figure from Irish americans to German americans telling them everybody they looked up to should be remembered just for their shitty parts. Let's spray every MLK statue with "was an adulterer" "was a Christian hypocrite" and see how that goes over.
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It's almost like the message you add to a statue derives its meaning from what the person stood for.
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On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Columbus is like Italian American pride these days. I think the nasty comparisons is just like telling people "fuck these immigrants," and you might as well just go through every revered figure from Irish americans to German americans telling them everybody they looked up to should be remembered just for their shitty parts. Let's spray every MLK statue with "was an adulterer" "was a Christian hypocrite" and see how that goes over.
How would you compare the moral failings of Columbus to those of MLK? MLK half as bad, 10% as bad? When I think about genocide and I compare it to adultery, I have a hard time seeing the situations as comparable. Are you saying the extent of the moral failing is irrelevant, and that it is as simple as doing bad things or not? In my eyes, the extent of the moral failings by Columbus/REL are extreme. Could you elaborate on your comparison?
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Are people really talking about taking down Columbus' statues currently? I don't think there are many proponents of 17th century Spanish ideology.
I'm not really certain it's the same type of problem as the confederacy ones (which were mostly put up as a "FUCK YOU" to black people whenever they started making noise demanding equal rights in the 1900s).
Btw, on this topic, the proposal to rename bases named after confederate soldiers has passed in GOP Senate committee. This is hours after Trump said he'd never do it.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/502218-senate-panel-votes-to-require-pentagon-to-rename-bases-named-after
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Northern Ireland27346 Posts
On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Columbus is like Italian American pride these days. I think the nasty comparisons is just like telling people "fuck these immigrants," and you might as well just go through every revered figure from Irish americans to German americans telling them everybody they looked up to should be remembered just for their shitty parts. Let's spray every MLK statue with "was an adulterer" "was a Christian hypocrite" and see how that goes over.
Teach the history then, if formal education as well as the wider media culture actually taught the complexities of what formed our respective nations then statues can remain as monuments for important historical figures.
The Irish I’ve spoken to on the subject don’t care nearly so much noted friend of the Irish Oliver Cromwell stands outside the Houses of Parliament in London as they do that vast swathes of British people don’t know what brutality he unleashed on this island.
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On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once.
Thanks to the internet, you can clean it up quickly.. The picture allready is everywhere.
Your comparison to MLK... The fuck?
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On June 12 2020 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Columbus is like Italian American pride these days. I think the nasty comparisons is just like telling people "fuck these immigrants," and you might as well just go through every revered figure from Irish americans to German americans telling them everybody they looked up to should be remembered just for their shitty parts. Let's spray every MLK statue with "was an adulterer" "was a Christian hypocrite" and see how that goes over. Teach the history then, if formal education as well as the wider media culture actually taught the complexities of what formed our respective nations then statues can remain as monuments for important historical figures. The Irish I’ve spoken to on the subject don’t care nearly so much noted friend of the Irish Oliver Cromwell stands outside the Houses of Parliament in London as they do that vast swathes of British people don’t know what brutality he unleashed on this island.
On June 12 2020 01:47 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Thanks to the internet, you can clean it up quickly.. The picture allready is everywhere. Your comparison to MLK... The fuck?
Around these parts, nobody deeply thinks about whether it stays or goes until you bring up something that they do think represents only the best of the man. Then they might ask hard questions on who gets to decide if it's the triumphs or the failures, a cultural icon or a reprobate. We already agree on teaching the history, and "the picture already is everywhere," so that isn't really an interesting part of the discussion, if we're being brutally honest with each other.
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On June 12 2020 01:47 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Thanks to the internet, you can clean it up quickly.. The picture allready is everywhere. Your comparison to MLK... The fuck?
I'm relieved others noticed this. It was a very aloof, backhanded way of saying "well MLK was an adulterer" and thinking it was some sort of tit-for-tat. The situations are not nearly the same, and I would join him in seeing how putting such a message over MLK statues would play out. I think it would be illuminating.
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On June 12 2020 02:07 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2020 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Columbus is like Italian American pride these days. I think the nasty comparisons is just like telling people "fuck these immigrants," and you might as well just go through every revered figure from Irish americans to German americans telling them everybody they looked up to should be remembered just for their shitty parts. Let's spray every MLK statue with "was an adulterer" "was a Christian hypocrite" and see how that goes over. Teach the history then, if formal education as well as the wider media culture actually taught the complexities of what formed our respective nations then statues can remain as monuments for important historical figures. The Irish I’ve spoken to on the subject don’t care nearly so much noted friend of the Irish Oliver Cromwell stands outside the Houses of Parliament in London as they do that vast swathes of British people don’t know what brutality he unleashed on this island. Show nested quote +On June 12 2020 01:47 Velr wrote:On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Thanks to the internet, you can clean it up quickly.. The picture allready is everywhere. Your comparison to MLK... The fuck? Around these parts, nobody deeply thinks about whether it stays or goes until you bring up something that they do think represents only the best of the man. Then they might ask hard questions on who gets to decide if it's the triumphs or the failures, a cultural icon or a reprobate. We already agree on teaching the history, and "the picture already is everywhere," so that isn't really an interesting part of the discussion, if we're being brutally honest with each other.
This feels like you trying hard not to substantiate your comparison to MLK
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On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Columbus is like Italian American pride these days. I think the nasty comparisons is just like telling people "fuck these immigrants," and you might as well just go through every revered figure from Irish americans to German americans telling them everybody they looked up to should be remembered just for their shitty parts. Let's spray every MLK statue with "was an adulterer" "was a Christian hypocrite" and see how that goes over.
Last time you and I went back and forth on statues, I recall you eventually landing on something like “the communities where those statues are should get to decide what stays or goes.” I recall filling you in on how local communities are prohibited from doing so by things like the Tennessee Heritage Protection Act which leaves communities like Memphis powerless to decide whether statues of confederate generals and klansmen should stand over their parks and streets.
After years of being denied any legal avenue to remove them, doesn’t the present moment feel like the inevitable conclusion of denying the community that right for decades? I have to say, the symbolism of a fed-up community finally throwing the remnants of entrenched white supremacy is hard not to like. Like farv, I’d like to see the statues (or what’s left of them) assembled in a museum to remember all the times we felt the need to summon these men’s ghosts, why we thought we needed them once more, and finally, when and why we put them back to rest.
It seems your tactic this time, much like last time, is to try to demonstrate the error of removal by extending the argument to more popular, yet still flawed historical figures. Washington? Jefferson? MLK? Should we tear them down, too? Perhaps examining our feelings on removal of those statues could help us parse what we do and don’t think merits removal, but like the last time, you’re being accused of whataboutism, false equivalencies, etc.
So I’d like to put the question back to you. What do you think we gain from stationing those men over our cities? What does it mean to us, and what do you think we would lose with their removal? Then extend to the confederate generals. What do we gain from stationing them over our cities? What would we lose by removing them?
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On June 12 2020 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2020 02:07 Danglars wrote:On June 12 2020 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Columbus is like Italian American pride these days. I think the nasty comparisons is just like telling people "fuck these immigrants," and you might as well just go through every revered figure from Irish americans to German americans telling them everybody they looked up to should be remembered just for their shitty parts. Let's spray every MLK statue with "was an adulterer" "was a Christian hypocrite" and see how that goes over. Teach the history then, if formal education as well as the wider media culture actually taught the complexities of what formed our respective nations then statues can remain as monuments for important historical figures. The Irish I’ve spoken to on the subject don’t care nearly so much noted friend of the Irish Oliver Cromwell stands outside the Houses of Parliament in London as they do that vast swathes of British people don’t know what brutality he unleashed on this island. On June 12 2020 01:47 Velr wrote:On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Thanks to the internet, you can clean it up quickly.. The picture allready is everywhere. Your comparison to MLK... The fuck? Around these parts, nobody deeply thinks about whether it stays or goes until you bring up something that they do think represents only the best of the man. Then they might ask hard questions on who gets to decide if it's the triumphs or the failures, a cultural icon or a reprobate. We already agree on teaching the history, and "the picture already is everywhere," so that isn't really an interesting part of the discussion, if we're being brutally honest with each other. This feels like you trying hard not to substantiate your comparison to MLK
Comparing MLK cheating on his wife to Native genocide is one of the crazier whataboutisms I've read on this forum recently.
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I guess it's the christian values that tend to creep up in republicans when it suits them.
Pretty disgusting.
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On June 12 2020 05:47 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2020 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:On June 12 2020 02:07 Danglars wrote:On June 12 2020 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Columbus is like Italian American pride these days. I think the nasty comparisons is just like telling people "fuck these immigrants," and you might as well just go through every revered figure from Irish americans to German americans telling them everybody they looked up to should be remembered just for their shitty parts. Let's spray every MLK statue with "was an adulterer" "was a Christian hypocrite" and see how that goes over. Teach the history then, if formal education as well as the wider media culture actually taught the complexities of what formed our respective nations then statues can remain as monuments for important historical figures. The Irish I’ve spoken to on the subject don’t care nearly so much noted friend of the Irish Oliver Cromwell stands outside the Houses of Parliament in London as they do that vast swathes of British people don’t know what brutality he unleashed on this island. On June 12 2020 01:47 Velr wrote:On June 12 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On June 11 2020 23:24 Velr wrote:
The "fuck you" confederate and similar Statues that were put up in "newish" times can be demolished.
The Colombus ones? I don't get it, thats just destroying actual history. Was he a bad Person? Yes... And? Comparing it to destroying Lenin/Stalin statues right after the USSR went down and similar stuff is plain dishonest.
Same with the statue of that guy in London (?), thats just stupid activism that achieves absolutely nothing. There would be ways to use these statues to spread awarnes of the good/interesting/important and bad/horrible stuff these people have done/achieved.
They could be used to teach actual history, what does throwing them away actually accomplish aside from scoring some internet points?
Can't wait until you bomb Mount Rushmore beacuse the people depicted there were not woke enough by nowadays standards.
Btw: The Churchill statue was sprayed with "was a Racist" - Imho thats fine. It actually made people discuss Churchills deeds, good/important and bad/cruel whiteout trying to make people forget about him.
Sure, leave the "was a racist" up for a few weeks to remind people. Churchill should be remembered for much more than that, and the pros column is big enough to keep a statue calling attention to those things. History books are the proper place to put stuff like his colonial views and WW1/WW2 idiot moves, because you can discuss them at length in context. No one person is going to be revolutionary in every aspect of social and political norms, all at once. Thanks to the internet, you can clean it up quickly.. The picture allready is everywhere. Your comparison to MLK... The fuck? Around these parts, nobody deeply thinks about whether it stays or goes until you bring up something that they do think represents only the best of the man. Then they might ask hard questions on who gets to decide if it's the triumphs or the failures, a cultural icon or a reprobate. We already agree on teaching the history, and "the picture already is everywhere," so that isn't really an interesting part of the discussion, if we're being brutally honest with each other. This feels like you trying hard not to substantiate your comparison to MLK Comparing MLK cheating on his wife to Native genocide is one of the crazier whataboutisms I've read on this forum recently.
Though IIRC - legitimately haven't read the bible lately so I could be wrong - I do think that in strict religious terms the adultery would be worse. The bible's a-ok with genociding heretics.
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The bible is also ok with fucking your daughter if the circumstances are right.
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God also considered it okay to kill Job's family as long as he gave him a new one afterwards. Funny guy. ;p
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It's almost like some bs-artist was in trouble and knew a guy that owed him something and was in a position of power wrote a certain book (thats the "nice" explanation").
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EPT
