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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On June 06 2020 06:00 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 05:55 Mohdoo wrote:On June 06 2020 05:45 travis wrote:On June 06 2020 05:23 Nevuk wrote:On June 06 2020 05:06 OmniEulogy wrote:To back Travis up a bit here, full video can be seen here: https://www.facebook.com/jared.richert/videos/10222653771794061/?d=n and it seems like the shop owner herself posted on social media asking for people to come and protect her store because she had heard it would be targeted by vandals. (she didn't follow the coronavirus lockdown and tried to open early) People jumping to a whole lot of conclusions based on a 20 second clip which looks pretty bad in the 20 second edit but the full thing makes way more sense and seems much less sinister. Honestly, it doesn't matter that she asked for them to be there. It just means they weren't trespassing. The issue is that police treated a group of armed proto-Nazis much better than they did peaceful protestors a block or two away. How do you know that? It seems we have stumbled onto the issue in this discussion. Proudboys involvement as neonazis is well understood to many people on this board Proudboys involvement with Oregon police is well understood to many people on this board Oregon police interactions with Oregon protestors is well understood to many people on this board You are clearly extremely uninformed and have no context. Because of that, you are wildly confused by what feels like an assumption to you. It is not our job to spoon feed you basic information that has been discussed not only here but many other places for quite some time. I believe in proving guilt, not the other way around. I find most of you disturbing.
Just days ago you claimed there are Antifa mercenaries paid by Soros at the protests without providing anything and got upset when Seeker (I think) asked you to source it.
If your standards for proof have drastically improved in the last couple of days, I applaud you. Though even if that were the case, it's far too early for you to use a high horse attitude against people making far shorter leaps than you did then. To me, the subtopics alone in which you and a few others have chosen to interject on and be riled up about in this past week speak the loudest about what your priorities are.
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On June 06 2020 06:15 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:00 travis wrote:On June 06 2020 05:55 Mohdoo wrote:On June 06 2020 05:45 travis wrote:On June 06 2020 05:23 Nevuk wrote:On June 06 2020 05:06 OmniEulogy wrote:To back Travis up a bit here, full video can be seen here: https://www.facebook.com/jared.richert/videos/10222653771794061/?d=n and it seems like the shop owner herself posted on social media asking for people to come and protect her store because she had heard it would be targeted by vandals. (she didn't follow the coronavirus lockdown and tried to open early) People jumping to a whole lot of conclusions based on a 20 second clip which looks pretty bad in the 20 second edit but the full thing makes way more sense and seems much less sinister. Honestly, it doesn't matter that she asked for them to be there. It just means they weren't trespassing. The issue is that police treated a group of armed proto-Nazis much better than they did peaceful protestors a block or two away. How do you know that? It seems we have stumbled onto the issue in this discussion. Proudboys involvement as neonazis is well understood to many people on this board Proudboys involvement with Oregon police is well understood to many people on this board Oregon police interactions with Oregon protestors is well understood to many people on this board You are clearly extremely uninformed and have no context. Because of that, you are wildly confused by what feels like an assumption to you. It is not our job to spoon feed you basic information that has been discussed not only here but many other places for quite some time. I believe in proving guilt, not the other way around. I find most of you disturbing. Just days ago you claimed there are Antifa mercenaries paid by Soros at the protests without providing anything and got upset when Seeker (I think) asked you to source it. If your standards for proof have drastically improved in the last couple of days, I applaud you. Though even if that were the case, it's far too early for you to use a high horse attitude against people making far shorter leaps than you did then. To me, the subtopics alone in which you and a few others have chosen to interject on and be riled up about in this past week speak the loudest about what your priorities are.
Louder for the people in the back, they might not have heard you.
I feel bad picking on travis for it though since he did save my ass when people were lying about me.
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United States10097 Posts
On June 06 2020 06:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:15 Dan HH wrote:On June 06 2020 06:00 travis wrote:On June 06 2020 05:55 Mohdoo wrote:On June 06 2020 05:45 travis wrote:On June 06 2020 05:23 Nevuk wrote:On June 06 2020 05:06 OmniEulogy wrote:To back Travis up a bit here, full video can be seen here: https://www.facebook.com/jared.richert/videos/10222653771794061/?d=n and it seems like the shop owner herself posted on social media asking for people to come and protect her store because she had heard it would be targeted by vandals. (she didn't follow the coronavirus lockdown and tried to open early) People jumping to a whole lot of conclusions based on a 20 second clip which looks pretty bad in the 20 second edit but the full thing makes way more sense and seems much less sinister. Honestly, it doesn't matter that she asked for them to be there. It just means they weren't trespassing. The issue is that police treated a group of armed proto-Nazis much better than they did peaceful protestors a block or two away. How do you know that? It seems we have stumbled onto the issue in this discussion. Proudboys involvement as neonazis is well understood to many people on this board Proudboys involvement with Oregon police is well understood to many people on this board Oregon police interactions with Oregon protestors is well understood to many people on this board You are clearly extremely uninformed and have no context. Because of that, you are wildly confused by what feels like an assumption to you. It is not our job to spoon feed you basic information that has been discussed not only here but many other places for quite some time. I believe in proving guilt, not the other way around. I find most of you disturbing. Just days ago you claimed there are Antifa mercenaries paid by Soros at the protests without providing anything and got upset when Seeker (I think) asked you to source it. If your standards for proof have drastically improved in the last couple of days, I applaud you. Though even if that were the case, it's far too early for you to use a high horse attitude against people making far shorter leaps than you did then. To me, the subtopics alone in which you and a few others have chosen to interject on and be riled up about in this past week speak the loudest about what your priorities are. Louder for the people in the back, they might not have heard you. I feel bad picking on travis for it though since he did save my ass when people were lying about me.
I agree with this sentiment. Why do we continue to move off the topic of what we actually want to see from the protests? What solutions should we be striving for? Instead, people want to focus on the looters or these other small issues that have nothing to do with the protesting. Generally, these people are more inclined to attempt to derail the movement on the small issues rather than address the core issue this country faces.
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So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far).
Here's their founder describing them.
The scary music is unnecessary IMO, as they're frightening enough in the first place. Also note the cops literally ignoring them beating people in some clips.
The reason "boys" is in the name is because they deny membership to all women. Imagine a mixture of skinheads, homophobes, islamophobes, misogynists, and trump super-fans (a person can be a super-fan without being the others), but better dressed. When we call them Nazis, that's not hyperbole. They're possibly more extreme than the average neo-nazi. If you ask one if liberals should be put into a holocaust, they won't just say yes, they'll offer to help and ask where they should start.
When people scaremonger about Antifa, the most outlandish of those claims are actually TRUE of the proud boys. Remember Charlottesville? That was organized by a proudboys member (since disavowed, for obvious pr reasons). They're basically an admitted right wing terrorist group, who only barely escaped classification as a hategroup in 2018 after the FBI abruptly reversed course on the announcement.
(This is just a brief summary of them. There's a whole list on wikipedia of 19 known incidents they've been involved in within the past 3 years).
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Rasmussen reports - Black voter approval of Trump surges above 40% - (compared to 26% in August 2019)
When you've got BLM mobs destroying businesses often owned by black people is anyone surprised?
So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far).
Who even are they? Really, in terms of numbers and actual disruption caused there is no comparison to what ANTIFA has 'achieved'.
Meanwhile the head of the CDC is warning that the protests/riots could be a seeding event for coronavirus.Please, do not gather in large group during a global pandemic.Especially in major cities which were already the hotspot for the virus.Pretty basic stuff guys....
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/04/health/cdc-protesters-tested-coronavirus-trnd/index.html
If you've marched in any recent protests, you may want to consider getting tested for the coronavirus.
That's the recommendation of the director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, who said during a House Appropriations hearing on Thursday that anyone who participated should "highly consider" getting tested.
"I do think there is a potential, unfortunately, for this to be a seeding event," Dr. Robert Redfield said during Thursday's hearing on the coronavirus response. He said the risk of infection is higher in major cities where there's been significant transmission.
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On June 06 2020 06:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far).
Who even are they? Really, in terms of numbers and actual disruption caused there is no comparison to what ANTIFA has 'achieved'.[/QUOTE]
Silly straw man. The issue is that police are collaborating with the group. The size of the group does not change the discussion. The issue is the overall culture of police and how that is shown by collaboration with proud boys.
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On June 06 2020 06:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Rasmussen reports - Black voter approval of Trump surges above 40% - (compared to 26% in August 2019) https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1268919228855451654When you've got BLM mobs destroying businesses often owned by black people is anyone surprised? Show nested quote +
So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far).
Who even are they? Really, in terms of numbers and actual disruption caused there is no comparison to what ANTIFA has 'achieved'.
LOL you can’t be serious? Antifa is not even a real group. It’s a rightwing scapegoat for all left wing activism both violent and nonviolent.
As far as I can tell the only times you can really attribute something to Antifa is when they counter protest far right protests/rallies
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On June 06 2020 06:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Rasmussen reports - Black voter approval of Trump surges above 40% - (compared to 26% in August 2019) https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1268919228855451654When you've got BLM mobs destroying businesses often owned by black people is anyone surprised? Show nested quote +
So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far).
Who even are they? Is this a whataboutism - comparing them to ANTIFA? Really, in terms of numbers and actual disruption caused there is no comparison.
You're looking for false equivalency, not whataboutism.
Antifa is a disorganized set of groups whose only commonality is a stated goal is to oppose fascists. They don't have a leader and could probably not be trusted to reliably disrupt a dinner party. It's like referring to the far right as the proud boys. Refer to the specific group and the difference becomes a lot clearer.
Proud boys are an actual organized group with a stated mission of violence to get their political desires.
Compare the documented actions of the two :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Notable_actions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys#Events
Note how each of the antifa events is done by a totally different group, different set of people, and is done on wildly varying scales. From a dozen people to about a hundred. The worst thing listed is using slingshots against police. On the plus side, they've defended clergy members from white supremacists.
Meanwhile, the proud boys events have ended with deaths, maimings, and general violence, and almost always had arrests occur for violence.
(Sidenote: I was being sarcastic earlier, but one of the antifa "events" is disrupting Tucker Carlson's dinner with chanted threats and spray painting his driveway. Which yes, bad, but not the same as driving a car into a group of people).
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Northern Ireland24423 Posts
On June 06 2020 06:00 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 05:55 Mohdoo wrote:On June 06 2020 05:45 travis wrote:On June 06 2020 05:23 Nevuk wrote:On June 06 2020 05:06 OmniEulogy wrote:To back Travis up a bit here, full video can be seen here: https://www.facebook.com/jared.richert/videos/10222653771794061/?d=n and it seems like the shop owner herself posted on social media asking for people to come and protect her store because she had heard it would be targeted by vandals. (she didn't follow the coronavirus lockdown and tried to open early) People jumping to a whole lot of conclusions based on a 20 second clip which looks pretty bad in the 20 second edit but the full thing makes way more sense and seems much less sinister. Honestly, it doesn't matter that she asked for them to be there. It just means they weren't trespassing. The issue is that police treated a group of armed proto-Nazis much better than they did peaceful protestors a block or two away. How do you know that? It seems we have stumbled onto the issue in this discussion. Proudboys involvement as neonazis is well understood to many people on this board Proudboys involvement with Oregon police is well understood to many people on this board Oregon police interactions with Oregon protestors is well understood to many people on this board You are clearly extremely uninformed and have no context. Because of that, you are wildly confused by what feels like an assumption to you. It is not our job to spoon feed you basic information that has been discussed not only here but many other places for quite some time. I believe in proving guilt, not the other way around. I find most of you disturbing. Show nested quote +
To further iterate: It is not our job to bring you up to speed. You are not our pupil. It isn't appropriate for you to sit here demanding information be given to you.
Demanding? You mean when I ask questions like normal people do in debate and discussion? Just as all of you have done for literally thousands of pages of posts? There seems to be very little good faith discussion to be found here. I suspect you will all continue to confirm your beliefs with each other indefinitely. It's clear that most who disagree with the various consensuses have realized it's a waste of time to be here (or have been banned). I do wish you all well though!
There’s plenty of healthy debate here and asking questions is pretty prevalent far as I’m concerned.
Some things, are proving questions really necessary?
Fine lines of course, but regardless of one’s intent ‘innocent until proven guilty’, which is of course a fundamental and important value can spill over into ‘excessively giving the benefit of the doubt.’
The far right are emboldened and actively seek being stuck in the latter camp, it’s how they walk alongside other groups who are seemingly oblivious to who they’re enabling.
The specifics of this instance aside, it comes in a wider context with police with ‘questionable’ tattoos and links to groups, a President with ‘good people on both sides’ and innumerable video evidence of the police violently escalating with peaceful protestors in this wave while happily letting armed white guys protest they can’t get a haircut.
Perhaps this specific instance the officer was being judicious/pragmatic in wanting to convince people with guns to abide by curfew.
In the wider context it is difficult to go against the belief that the velvet glove is extended to right wing groups and the iron fist for everyone else
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NPR, PBS, and Marist did a polling this past week. Covers everything from the protests, his job as president, and his head to head vs Biden. He's clearly falling in the ratings and is going to have a difficult hill to climb come November should the protests and the pandemic not be resolved by then.
Coinciding with Trump's handling of race relations are the ongoing coronavirus pandemic and the downward turn of the economy. And the poll found that Trump is suffering politically.
The number of people disapproving of the job he's doing as president is near a record; the intensity of the opposition against him — how many people strongly disapprove — is the highest it has ever been. To boot, he's losing by a substantial margin to presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden, according to the poll.
Trump's approval rating is 41% in the poll. That's about where it has been since he took office. It's down 2 points since March, the last time the poll measured his overall approval rating, but his overall disapproval number jumped 5 points to 55%.
His fairly consistent approval number masks significant movement beneath the surface. Almost half the country now — 47% — strongly disapproves of the job he's doing.
It was remarkable when earlier in Trump's presidency, some 40% strongly disapproved of him, but 47%? To put that in context, that's a point higher than the percentage of the popular vote that he got in the 2016 presidential election.
That movement comes largely from independents. Overall, 56% of them disapprove of the job Trump is doing, up from 50% in March. The number of independents now strongly disapproving has jumped 10 points, from 33% to 43%.
Source
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Northern Ireland24423 Posts
Will Nettles respond to a post in response to one of his infrequent visits? Place your bets now
Edit - Fucked up the quoting somehow and didn’t bother to fix.
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On June 06 2020 04:02 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 02:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 06 2020 02:23 Sr18 wrote:On June 06 2020 02:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 06 2020 02:03 Sbrubbles wrote:On June 06 2020 01:11 Simberto wrote:On June 05 2020 23:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2020 23:39 Sr18 wrote:
GH, how would you go about law enforcing without law enforcement? It seems impossible to me. First, law enforcement and police aren't synonymous, as we see criminal cops literally all over the country right now. I don't understand the questions because they presume a relationship between police, crime, and society that doesn't exist. Like the "why don't you peacefully protest instead" assumes a relationship between politicians actions and the people protesting that simply doesn't exist. Okay, i think i see where you are coming from, and also why people are really confused. If i understand you correctly, when you say "the police", you mean the organisation which is currently called police in the US, with all its structural problems on so forth. So if you say "abolish the police", you mean to get rid of this organisation, and come up with another organisation without these problems to do law enforcement (but not some of the additional stuff that police in the US tend to do, and especially not the racist and/or overly violent parts) Is that how you use that word? Meanwhile, when people you are discussing with say "police", they mean "a law enforcement agency of some sort". Which leads to lots of confusion, because a society without any law enforcement agency whatsoever sounds like a very utopian concept which doesn't really fit with reality very well. But getting rid of the currently problem-riddled US police organisations and replacing them with something else is not that absurd. This is my interpretation of GH's argument as well. It's the closest I've seen. Which is why I suggested people that want to better understand my position (and police/prison abolition generally) start with this and this so that fruitful discussion can be had. Otherwise I'm not seeing a point. Honestly, I've provided a very simple and concrete example of one of the vital roles that the police perform and have asked you how this role will be performed in the absence of a police force. Your questions regarding the definition of police are not relevant to answering my question, because it is clear that the police play a role in enforcing civil verdicts. So again, in your desired future, where the police has been abolished, who performs this function? And note that this is just an example of one of the many vital functions of a police force. We can go over the other ones next if you'd like, but I'm starting to wonder if you even have an answer to the question. Have you tried googling it? I'm just curious if you've put more effort into badgering me for that answer than actually looking for it. You've put a lot of effort into evading questions while casting aspersions about lack of effort. I mostly see good faith questions being posed to you that you don't seem to know how to answer. I don't know why this is, and I don't expect you to write a treatise, but you could at least provide a limited answer that advances the discussion rather than repeating the same statements. If people don't understand those statements, repeating them won't help. If you don't want to talk about it then stop responding to all these people. I want to see your answers but I don't want to see 3 pages of people going back and forth saying "what do you mean tho." I take your reluctance to link an easily obtainable google result to be a reluctance to endorse any of the popular google results. And if that's the case, then googling a popular result won't help them figure out what your views are, will it? I for one think "abolish the police" is a stupid slogan to use in a popular campaign for sociological and political reasons. It might have a well-defined meaning in narrow contexts but tossing it around casually is just a way to stoke conflict and misunderstanding. Consider: you and others have already pointed out how little (suburban, educated, home-owning, white) people know about "real police work." That implies that "police" already has a flexible semantic content, and that just because people support "the police" there is no logical connection between unqualified support for the determinable content "police" and unqualified support for the determinate content "police" that you want to abolish. So people supporting the "police" (determinable) does not mean they support the "police" (determinate) and the conflation of these two has only led to (sometimes violent) misunderstandings. Look at the limited support libertarian-leaning republicans have given to reducing police budgets and limiting police mission statements recently.
We are all still waiting for a response to this.
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On June 06 2020 06:26 Nevuk wrote:So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far). Here's their founder describing them. https://twitter.com/RationalDis/status/1267171557845151744The scary music is unnecessary IMO, as they're frightening enough in the first place. Also note the cops literally ignoring them beating people in some clips. The reason "boys" is in the name is because they deny membership to all women. Imagine a mixture of skinheads, homophobes, islamophobes, misogynists, and trump super-fans (a person can be a super-fan without being the others), but better dressed. When we call them Nazis, that's not hyperbole. They're possibly more extreme than the average neo-nazi. If you ask one if liberals should be put into a holocaust, they won't just say yes, they'll offer to help and ask where they should start. When people scaremonger about Antifa, the most outlandish of those claims are actually TRUE of the proud boys. Remember Charlottesville? That was organized by a proudboys member (since disavowed, for obvious pr reasons). They're basically an admitted right wing terrorist group, who only barely escaped classification as a hategroup in 2018 after the FBI abruptly reversed course on the announcement. (This is just a brief summary of them. There's a whole list on wikipedia of 19 known incidents they've been involved in within the past 3 years).
They hit big on misogyny, jingoism, and whatever you want to call violence in the name of "defense of western civilization."
But I wouldn't really cite a video mashup, because people do these with just enough clips about Antifa, and you'll hear them advocating for outright justifying murder (similarly to stop an imminent fascist overthrow of Democracy). So I wouldn't link videos of that nature in order to make some broad comparison of how dangerous one group is to another. You can do the same video with Antifa, because they have outlandish members that will say the same kind of shit on camera for a mashup. The danger is membership numbers, willingness to put thought into action, arsenals, expectation of consequences, and other statistics. Not a jump-cut video.
We'll see if any claims about Antifa's involvement in the more violent looting events and splinters off from the main protests when the people arrested are investigated and charged. It's not worth putting all the blame on them, or whitewashing the blame.
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On June 06 2020 06:51 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Rasmussen reports - Black voter approval of Trump surges above 40% - (compared to 26% in August 2019) https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1268919228855451654When you've got BLM mobs destroying businesses often owned by black people is anyone surprised?
So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far).
Who even are they? Really, in terms of numbers and actual disruption caused there is no comparison to what ANTIFA has 'achieved'. LOL you can’t be serious? Antifa is not even a real group. It’s a rightwing scapegoat for all left wing activism both violent and nonviolent. As far as I can tell the only times you can really attribute something to Antifa is when they counter protest far right protests/rallies
I've heard a lot about a far right 'resurgence' in the USA but if you look at actual group membership.... No more than a few thousand.And any time these nutjobs go out they're outnumbered 40-1 by ANTIFA agitating for violent confrontation.It's not an issue at this time.People just like mentioning these nobody far right groups that most people haven't heard of to take heat off ANTIFA.
Newsflash if you want to build a wall doesn't necessarily make you far right.You've just (attempted) to move the overton window so far left the past 25 years that things that used to be centrist (go rewatch Clintons 1995 SOTU) is now far right.Which is a huge part of why ANTIFA has become so dangerous now.Trump was right in naming them a terrorist organisation.
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On June 06 2020 07:33 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:26 Nevuk wrote:So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far). Here's their founder describing them. https://twitter.com/RationalDis/status/1267171557845151744The scary music is unnecessary IMO, as they're frightening enough in the first place. Also note the cops literally ignoring them beating people in some clips. The reason "boys" is in the name is because they deny membership to all women. Imagine a mixture of skinheads, homophobes, islamophobes, misogynists, and trump super-fans (a person can be a super-fan without being the others), but better dressed. When we call them Nazis, that's not hyperbole. They're possibly more extreme than the average neo-nazi. If you ask one if liberals should be put into a holocaust, they won't just say yes, they'll offer to help and ask where they should start. When people scaremonger about Antifa, the most outlandish of those claims are actually TRUE of the proud boys. Remember Charlottesville? That was organized by a proudboys member (since disavowed, for obvious pr reasons). They're basically an admitted right wing terrorist group, who only barely escaped classification as a hategroup in 2018 after the FBI abruptly reversed course on the announcement. (This is just a brief summary of them. There's a whole list on wikipedia of 19 known incidents they've been involved in within the past 3 years). They hit big on misogyny, jingoism, and whatever you want to call violence in the name of "defense of western civilization." But I wouldn't really cite a video mashup, because people do these with just enough clips about Antifa, and you'll hear them advocating for outright justifying murder (similarly to stop an imminent fascist overthrow of Democracy). So I wouldn't link videos of that nature in order to make some broad comparison of how dangerous one group is to another. You can do the same video with Antifa, because they have outlandish members that will say the same kind of shit on camera for a mashup. The danger is membership numbers, willingness to put thought into action, arsenals, expectation of consequences, and other statistics. Not a jump-cut video. We'll see if any claims about Antifa's involvement in the more violent looting events and splinters off from the main protests when the people arrested are investigated and charged. It's not worth putting all the blame on them, or whitewashing the blame.
No one is comparing proud boys to antifa. The issue is Oregon police history of collaborating with proud boys and what that means about Oregon police.
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What does "actual group membership" mean? That sounds like a made-up thing of straw for the building of scarecrows, particularly when one is discussing the counting of people belonging to a group that the federal government doesn't recognize as a threat. A huge reason for the SPLC's hate group database, as flawed as it and they may be, is that the feds have never been keen on tracking certain kinds of people.
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Is there a membership card for being part of Antifa?
I certainly don’t have a huge amount of love for the type of left wing person who joins Antifa (if they actually organised and we’re less solely about cracking fascist skulls, I think they’d be more effective but they have never been an actual former organised group) but they’re not new and have existed for as long as modern history. If Antifa is an actual terrorist group, then they must be an Antifa with American Characteristics because they don’t exist elsewhere. They only exist to bash fascists and it just so happens that far right groups don’t need to protest because their form of protest is to beat up protestors as the police force.
In fact, there’s just so much people try to justify by pointing to _______ with American Characteristics in the same way the Chinese government likes to hand wave everything away with _______ with Chinese Characteristics.
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United States10097 Posts
On June 06 2020 06:51 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Rasmussen reports - Black voter approval of Trump surges above 40% - (compared to 26% in August 2019) https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1268919228855451654When you've got BLM mobs destroying businesses often owned by black people is anyone surprised?
So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far).
Who even are they? Is this a whataboutism - comparing them to ANTIFA? Really, in terms of numbers and actual disruption caused there is no comparison. You're looking for false equivalency, not whataboutism. Antifa is a disorganized set of groups whose only commonality is a stated goal is to oppose fascists. They don't have a leader and could probably not be trusted to reliably disrupt a dinner party. It's like referring to the far right as the proud boys. Refer to the specific group and the difference becomes a lot clearer. Proud boys are an actual organized group with a stated mission of violence to get their political desires. Compare the documented actions of the two : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Notable_actionshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys#EventsNote how each of the antifa events is done by a totally different group, different set of people, and is done on wildly varying scales. From a dozen people to about a hundred. The worst thing listed is using slingshots against police. On the plus side, they've defended clergy members from white supremacists. Meanwhile, the proud boys events have ended with deaths, maimings, and general violence, and almost always had arrests occur for violence. (Sidenote: I was being sarcastic earlier, but one of the antifa "events" is disrupting Tucker Carlson's dinner with chanted threats and spray painting his driveway. Which yes, bad, but not the same as driving a car into a group of people).
While the two groups and the conversation regarding the Proud Boys surely is more about the police cooperation with them, Antifa shouldn't just be let off the hook that easily. The obvious incidents that come to mind are bike lock guy, and them burning UCB in response to, I forget, Ben, Milo, or Ann Coulter from speaking on campus or something.
On June 06 2020 06:54 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:NPR, PBS, and Marist did a polling this past week. Covers everything from the protests, his job as president, and his head to head vs Biden. He's clearly falling in the ratings and is going to have a difficult hill to climb come November should the protests and the pandemic not be resolved by then. Show nested quote +Coinciding with Trump's handling of race relations are the ongoing coronavirus pandemic and the downward turn of the economy. And the poll found that Trump is suffering politically.
The number of people disapproving of the job he's doing as president is near a record; the intensity of the opposition against him — how many people strongly disapprove — is the highest it has ever been. To boot, he's losing by a substantial margin to presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden, according to the poll.
Trump's approval rating is 41% in the poll. That's about where it has been since he took office. It's down 2 points since March, the last time the poll measured his overall approval rating, but his overall disapproval number jumped 5 points to 55%.
His fairly consistent approval number masks significant movement beneath the surface. Almost half the country now — 47% — strongly disapproves of the job he's doing.
It was remarkable when earlier in Trump's presidency, some 40% strongly disapproved of him, but 47%? To put that in context, that's a point higher than the percentage of the popular vote that he got in the 2016 presidential election.
That movement comes largely from independents. Overall, 56% of them disapprove of the job Trump is doing, up from 50% in March. The number of independents now strongly disapproving has jumped 10 points, from 33% to 43%. Source
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/Texas.html
RCP has Texas at effectively a swing state now. Pretty interesting seeing as talks of Texas going purple are becoming more and more evident. Biden is also leading Trump in practically every swing state by almost 1 deviation now in states like Wisconsin, Michigan, and PA. Ohio is slowly turning back towards him as well, and he even leads Arizona and NC. That being said, Democrats don't vote, so it will be interesting to see if the Trump effect still follows like in 2016 and the polls are underrepresenting the hidden Trump voter. I doubt it, and I have Biden as the favorite right now.
EDIT: quoted the wrong post oops
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On June 06 2020 07:33 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:26 Nevuk wrote:So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far). Here's their founder describing them. https://twitter.com/RationalDis/status/1267171557845151744The scary music is unnecessary IMO, as they're frightening enough in the first place. Also note the cops literally ignoring them beating people in some clips. The reason "boys" is in the name is because they deny membership to all women. Imagine a mixture of skinheads, homophobes, islamophobes, misogynists, and trump super-fans (a person can be a super-fan without being the others), but better dressed. When we call them Nazis, that's not hyperbole. They're possibly more extreme than the average neo-nazi. If you ask one if liberals should be put into a holocaust, they won't just say yes, they'll offer to help and ask where they should start. When people scaremonger about Antifa, the most outlandish of those claims are actually TRUE of the proud boys. Remember Charlottesville? That was organized by a proudboys member (since disavowed, for obvious pr reasons). They're basically an admitted right wing terrorist group, who only barely escaped classification as a hategroup in 2018 after the FBI abruptly reversed course on the announcement. (This is just a brief summary of them. There's a whole list on wikipedia of 19 known incidents they've been involved in within the past 3 years). They hit big on misogyny, jingoism, and whatever you want to call violence in the name of "defense of western civilization." But I wouldn't really cite a video mashup, because people do these with just enough clips about Antifa, and you'll hear them advocating for outright justifying murder (similarly to stop an imminent fascist overthrow of Democracy). So I wouldn't link videos of that nature in order to make some broad comparison of how dangerous one group is to another. You can do the same video with Antifa, because they have outlandish members that will say the same kind of shit on camera for a mashup. The danger is membership numbers, willingness to put thought into action, arsenals, expectation of consequences, and other statistics. Not a jump-cut video. We'll see if any claims about Antifa's involvement in the more violent looting events and splinters off from the main protests when the people arrested are investigated and charged. It's not worth putting all the blame on them, or whitewashing the blame.
True, but that is the leader of the proud boys. Not some random member. The jumpcut video isn't great, but I figured a 2 minute highlights video was good enough for someone who had never heard of them.
There have also been reports that some violence in the riots is being done by police and right-wing groups (no proud boys affiliation).
The average member of antifa groups is very ineffective. Have you all ever interacted with a far leftist besides GH? His groups protest at the 2016 dem convention was like, by far the most coherent group action I've ever seen from them. The ones I knew had their hearts in the right place, but close to zero idea of how to effect political change. One of them became homeless for a year to protest the military industrial complex (I haven't heard from him since...). The only reason you see them when the PB show up is that the PB gave the local leftists a time and place to be.
On June 06 2020 07:48 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 07:33 Danglars wrote:On June 06 2020 06:26 Nevuk wrote:So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far). Here's their founder describing them. https://twitter.com/RationalDis/status/1267171557845151744The scary music is unnecessary IMO, as they're frightening enough in the first place. Also note the cops literally ignoring them beating people in some clips. The reason "boys" is in the name is because they deny membership to all women. Imagine a mixture of skinheads, homophobes, islamophobes, misogynists, and trump super-fans (a person can be a super-fan without being the others), but better dressed. When we call them Nazis, that's not hyperbole. They're possibly more extreme than the average neo-nazi. If you ask one if liberals should be put into a holocaust, they won't just say yes, they'll offer to help and ask where they should start. When people scaremonger about Antifa, the most outlandish of those claims are actually TRUE of the proud boys. Remember Charlottesville? That was organized by a proudboys member (since disavowed, for obvious pr reasons). They're basically an admitted right wing terrorist group, who only barely escaped classification as a hategroup in 2018 after the FBI abruptly reversed course on the announcement. (This is just a brief summary of them. There's a whole list on wikipedia of 19 known incidents they've been involved in within the past 3 years). They hit big on misogyny, jingoism, and whatever you want to call violence in the name of "defense of western civilization." But I wouldn't really cite a video mashup, because people do these with just enough clips about Antifa, and you'll hear them advocating for outright justifying murder (similarly to stop an imminent fascist overthrow of Democracy). So I wouldn't link videos of that nature in order to make some broad comparison of how dangerous one group is to another. You can do the same video with Antifa, because they have outlandish members that will say the same kind of shit on camera for a mashup. The danger is membership numbers, willingness to put thought into action, arsenals, expectation of consequences, and other statistics. Not a jump-cut video. We'll see if any claims about Antifa's involvement in the more violent looting events and splinters off from the main protests when the people arrested are investigated and charged. It's not worth putting all the blame on them, or whitewashing the blame. No one is comparing proud boys to antifa. The issue is Oregon police history of collaborating with proud boys and what that means about Oregon police.
I did, actually, but only in the sense that one is clearly, openly dangerous and the other is... not. Graffiti, noise complaints, and some property damage is all that can ACTUALLY be attributed to antifa groups so far. We will see if there is any change, but so far there is only claims and no evidence. Was mostly meant to be a really high level summary since Travis didn't know who they were.
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On June 06 2020 07:48 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 06:51 Chocolate wrote:On June 06 2020 06:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Rasmussen reports - Black voter approval of Trump surges above 40% - (compared to 26% in August 2019) https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1268919228855451654When you've got BLM mobs destroying businesses often owned by black people is anyone surprised?
So, the proud boys. No one on this board will even make a token attempt to defend them. I think they were too far for even xDaunt when he was still able to post (xDaunt really liked Milo, iirc, but I'm pretty sure Gavin McInnis was too far).
Who even are they? Really, in terms of numbers and actual disruption caused there is no comparison to what ANTIFA has 'achieved'. LOL you can’t be serious? Antifa is not even a real group. It’s a rightwing scapegoat for all left wing activism both violent and nonviolent. As far as I can tell the only times you can really attribute something to Antifa is when they counter protest far right protests/rallies I've heard a lot about a far right 'resurgence' in the USA but if you look at actual group membership.... No more than a few thousand.And any time these nutjobs go out they're outnumbered 40-1 by ANTIFA agitating for violent confrontation.It's not an issue at this time.People just like mentioning these nobody far right groups that most people haven't heard of to take heat off ANTIFA. Newsflash if you want to build a wall doesn't necessarily make you far right.You've just (attempted) to move the overton window so far left the past 25 years that things that used to be centrist (go rewatch Clintons 1995 SOTU) is now far right.Which is a huge part of why ANTIFA has become so dangerous now.Trump was right in naming them a terrorist organisation.
Yeah, these nobody far right groups... that happen to be almost everywhere, and shot through many police departments. They're starring in almost all of the violence taking place this last week, btw. Don't know if you've noticed. Who is going to admit they're a card-carrying white supremacist? Why don't we do a nifty little poll to find out who'll admit to being a sex offender?
If you're trying specifically to not only be wrong, but to parrot the exact opposite of what the truth is, you're doing a bang-up job.
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EPT
