EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2306
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On May 10 2020 06:12 JimmiC wrote: Tons of info in this article but the most interesting part to me (other then the big chess championship!) is that Trumps popularity with seniors is dropping and Biden's is growing. If Trump loses the seniors he won't win and prioritizing the economy over their lives is unsurprisingly not popular with them! https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/trumps-support-among-seniors-slips-as-pandemic-grows-more-political/ar-BB13Qx7D?li=AAggNb9 This is going to be the hottest of hot takes and probably very unpopular, but of course that generation would rather wreck young folks lives and careers for a marginal improvement in longevity than take their own measured precautions (which they should all ready be doing as they're high-risk for all sorts of contagions). Lest, we remember economic activity is human activity - it's not some abstract thing. It's people following their dreams and goals, it's people interacting with each other, building communities, wealth, and providing for the next generation. God damn, man, the "boomer" generation is the most selfish lot I've ever seen. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7811 Posts
On May 10 2020 13:47 Wegandi wrote: This is going to be the hottest of hot takes and probably very unpopular, but of course that generation would rather wreck young folks lives and careers for a marginal improvement in longevity than take their own measured precautions (which they should all ready be doing as they're high-risk for all sorts of contagions). Lest, we remember economic activity is human activity - it's not some abstract thing. It's people following their dreams and goals, it's people interacting with each other, building communities, wealth, and providing for the next generation. God damn, man, the "boomer" generation is the most selfish lot I've ever seen. I thought egoism was a virtue, or did I miss something? People are pissed because Trump's response has been a clusterfuck of incompetence, stupidity, self pity and meanness. And seniors who are the most at risk finally understand that it sucks to have a clown like that dealing with matters of life and death. The argument that it's selfish not to let the virus going full spanish flue because of the economy is just so off I don't know what to say. You just have not understood what the virus is if you think it's an option. It's not. Everyone realizes the damage that is being done, but there is no alternative. Of course said damage would be mitigated if the US had a functional welfare state, but hey... | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
There's a legitimate argument about the risks to the health and well-being of the general population and the people primary at risk to contract the virus. There's some strong arguments that the costs of restrictions are starting to outweigh the benefits. A few days ago the guardian had a story that restrictions will probably lead to millions of excess tubercolosis deaths over the next few years. Which is by far the most deadly infectious disease on the planet after HIV. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7811 Posts
Although it's not even a good argument: both Italy and Wuhan did shut down quite quickly. In fact we have no idea of how terrible it would be if we really did nothing. It's not for avoiding a small increase in mortality amongst the 80+ that we shut down. It's for avoiding an absolute massacre. And let me tell you, the economy would have crashed anyway. Regardless, saying that the boomers are egoistic because they should all be let to suffocate instead of taking an economic hit, which really is what Wegandi is suggesting, is an obscenity. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9234 Posts
On May 11 2020 06:49 Nyxisto wrote: whatever it is it's not the Spanish flu and those hyperboles don't help. The Spanish flu in particular killed people with well functioning immune systems which meant predominantly young and middle-aged adults. In terms of life-years the average Spanish flu victim probably lost 40-50. There's a legitimate argument about the risks to the health and well-being of the general population and the people primary at risk to contract the virus. There's some strong arguments that the costs of restrictions are starting to outweigh the benefits. A few days ago the guardian had a story that restrictions will probably lead to millions of excess tubercolosis deaths over the next few years. Which is by far the most deadly infectious disease on the planet after HIV. Interesting. Though firstly the article talks about 1.4 million excess deaths till 2025. Not blanket millions. I also must say that I think the one thing doesn't necessarily lead to the other. so there might be correlation but not causation. This is important as it's human error that produces the result insofar as we weren't prepared for services to continue in such a situation. and it's less about the restrictions in place to prevent a rampant viral spread of a disease we still know jack shit about. So I don't consider this a legitimate argument that failure to keep practices in place are a sign we should abandon ship with Corona measures, but a call for wealthy Nations to divert sufficient funding to research and treatment options in parts of the world where they are needed. This is not a new problem. This is a systemic problem. You can add Hunger, famine and femicide to that list and many others that are exacerbated by the Corona shutdown. The strongest argument against your post is that these problems won't go away with lifted Corona measures. They might be a little bit to severely alleviated but still TB deaths would be above a million. They weren't an important problem before why should they now be? We won't tackle this illness after Corona, why risk overlooking some severe and yet unknown side effects of this virus to safe people nobody cared about beforehand? While I'm generally with you in a sense that older illnesses can not be forgotten and that the consequences of Corona measures are to be taken into account and addressed accordingly, I get the impression this is not your goal from the way you phrased your argument. But rather to demonise the rona measures to have them abolished by pretending to care about something you wouldn't even have dreamt of caring about before. From your previous posting I wouldn't put it past you to actually care about the matter, the way your argument is laid forth makes me question that in this instance. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On May 11 2020 06:49 Nyxisto wrote: whatever it is it's not the Spanish flu and those hyperboles don't help. The Spanish flu in particular killed people with well functioning immune systems which meant predominantly young and middle-aged adults. In terms of life-years the average Spanish flu victim probably lost 40-50. Nonsense through and through. First: you have zero medical background to back your claim that "this isn't the spanish flu". In fact, so far, Covid19 is probably equal, if not worse than the first wave of the spanish flu. The first wave was barely more than a normal flu, acting exactly like you would expect from a flu. Attacking predominantly elderly/sick/weak. What made the spanish flu famous is what happened more than half a year after the initial outbreak. In the first wave people didn't drop dead after a few hours of getting infected. Everything that makes the spanish flu scary to people reading of it 100 years later happened in the second wave. It's also hardly a hyperbole considering nobody actually knows how many people died. The only fact that we have is that it is considered one of the deadliest pandemics in history. Yes, the second wave devastated younger people predominantly. The first wave did not. You know how the spanish flu killed? Pulmonary consolidation/pneumonia, and cykotine storms. Both observed in Covid19 victims too. The intelligent conclusion here is really simple. A virus mutates. That can be good (spanish flu fourth wave) or really bad (spanish flu second wave). What you're arguing is the equivalent to someone in 1939 arguing that 1916 was deadlier, so no worries. You have no way of knowing where Covid19 will go next. And make no mistake, it will mutate. And if by the time it mutates to something much more deadly (though: this isn't a given, of course - it might mutate to something harmless, but i don't feel like coinflipping when the price is burying family members) people have gone "back to normal", then a spanish flu is exactly what's going to happen. In fact, there's already evidence for the fact that the virus is adapting to humans, with two mutations in the spike protein (which is used to attack cells) observed. This alone can make the virus either harmless to humans, or much more infectious. There's a legitimate argument about the risks to the health and well-being of the general population and the people primary at risk to contract the virus. There's some strong arguments that the costs of restrictions are starting to outweigh the benefits. A few days ago the guardian had a story that restrictions will probably lead to millions of excess tubercolosis deaths over the next few years. Which is by far the most deadly infectious disease on the planet after HIV. Misleading at best. Yes, tuberculosis is the deadliest infectious disease on the planet. That's because some of the most populated areas in the world happen to be third world countries with no functioning health care system, or sewage system, or clean water. 8 countries alone are responsible for more than two thirds of all recorded cases: india, china, indonesia, philippines, pakistan, nigeria, bangladesh and south africa. Only 6% of all reported cases happened to be in the WHO European Region (53 countries, over 900mio people) and WHO Region of Americas (55 countries, 990 mio people). That said: i like how you "hype" TB, but leave out the little fact that since first of april, more people die every day from Covid19 than tuberculosis. And by a large amount. Indeed, the daily death rates of Italy, Spain, France and UK combined are enough to "beat" the daily death rate of TB (worldwide). Here's the point. Yes, something has to be done about the economies, this can't go on forever. In fact i don't think it can go on for much longer. But it has to be done smart, unlike the approach of the UK now, where Boris Johnson basically told people to go to work in 12 hours, with zero guidelines for companies, workers or really anything other than trying to invoke some wartime spirit. That being said: bullshitting about Covid19 doesn't help either. No it's not the spanish flu. It's currently worse than the spanish flu at the same point in the outbreak. More people die from CV19 than TB, daily. And that's with lockdown measures already in place. Do i think it'll "beat" the spanish flu in terms of deaths? No. But i can freely admit that this is wishful thinking and naivety. Because factually, there's no reason to assume that it can't. And that's why people need to stay alert, and accept that some things simply will not go back to normal for the next year or two. That's entirely undeniable. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
If anything Covid-19 causes more damage because it is less lethal. Both SARS and MERS were extremely deadly, and because of their deadliness, they didn't spread very well. In modern medical environments, a really deadly disease isn't actually very likely to spread fast, which is why well-adapted viruses are not deadly at all. And as far as the actual deaths are concerned, many people are dying with covid-19, not off covid-19. The average age of death in many countries is higher than the average life expectancy. High excess death rates seem to predominantly occur in extremely hard-hit regions and the response is borderline irrational if one takes into account the costs of the lockdown to public health in general. It's not only TB of course. It's people postponing important surgeries, people being to afraid to see doctors, psychological harm as a result of job loss, and so on. Measured responses to the disease such as in Sweden, Singapore or Taiwan are reasonable. These lockdowns more closely resemble medieval Europe fighting the black death, and no country will be able to maintain them for much longer. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9234 Posts
First it's ICU beds, then comes the R number and now it's excess deaths. What's that telling us? That we know fuck all what to expect. What do we do in this instance? Get on with it? Err on the side of caution? Downsize our lives? Restart the economy and take the subsequent losses? Finally have decent working conditions in near processing plants? Nationalise key services? There are so many important questions and all people seem to be able to talk about is how this is just a flu | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On May 11 2020 14:16 Artisreal wrote: It is funny how the conversation shifts so fast. First it's ICU beds, then comes the R number and now it's excess deaths. What's that telling us? That we know fuck all what to expect. What do we do in this instance? Get on with it? Err on the side of caution? Downsize our lives? Restart the economy and take the subsequent losses? Finally have decent working conditions in near processing plants? Nationalise key services? There are so many important questions and all people seem to be able to talk about is how this is just a flu I'm of the opinion it is the issue I mentioned when this first started. They didn't want to pause capitalism because they know the longer it is paused the more time people have to realize how much of a scam "going back to normal" is for the people it is exploiting the worst. The people that still have to show up to jobs with inadequate ppe, poverty wages, and inaccessible healthcare, whether there's a pandemic or not. The people rushing to "get back to normal" in my experience are largely people that are economically comfortable, working from home, and just want the people that made their leisure life possible (bartenders, waiters, hairstylists, gyms, etc.) to be forced back to work so they can resume their off-hours entertainment and such. Alternatively they are ignoring the science/data we already have in favor of blind optimism and denial. One segment of that group I'm sympathetic to are those that have lost their income and the state and fed have completely failed to even provide the money that's been promised thus far and/or secure basic protections for the 30,000,000+ newly unemployed (and soon to be uninsured) people over the last month or so.. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
Obama Pardons James Cartwright, General Who Lied to F.B.I. in Leak Case https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/us/politics/obama-pardons-james-cartwright-general-who-lied-to-fbi-in-leak-case.html | ||
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farvacola
United States18819 Posts
On May 12 2020 03:37 Doodsmack wrote: Some interesting reporting from the NYT back in 2017. Cartwright worked in Obama's first administration and was his favorite general. The article does not contain the phrase "rule of law" nor does it contain a hint of criticism of Obama's decision. Obama Pardons James Cartwright, General Who Lied to F.B.I. in Leak Case https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/us/politics/obama-pardons-james-cartwright-general-who-lied-to-fbi-in-leak-case.html Lol, why don’t you also post the article that pointed you to that NYT piece as well? Or are you going to pretend that you stumbled upon this by your lonesome? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On May 11 2020 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote: The people rushing to "get back to normal" in my experience are largely people that are economically comfortable, working from home, and just want the people that made their leisure life possible (bartenders, waiters, hairstylists, gyms, etc.) to be forced back to work so they can resume their off-hours entertainment and such. Doesn't appear to be the case to be honest. There seems to be a liberal/conservative split in the US with the strongest support probably among the more well-off liberal demographics. Which is in line with the obvious incentives. Educated white-collar workers can work from home for a long time and have no real problems, there's like a whole new emerging genre of lockdown fanfic with a pretty strong class divide. Most people who are suffering from the lockdowns are simply working people. Restaurant owners/workers, barbers, people with small homes and kids who need schools to open up, and so on. I can work from home for years with a laptop, most people can't. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On May 12 2020 04:13 Nyxisto wrote: Doesn't appear to be the case to be honest. There seems to be a liberal/conservative split in the US with the strongest support probably among the more well-off liberal demographics. Which is in line with the obvious incentives. Educated white-collar workers can work from home for a long time and have no real problems, there's like a whole new emerging genre of lockdown fanfic with a pretty strong class divide. Most people who are suffering from the lockdowns are simply working people. Restaurant owners/workers, barbers, people with small homes and kids who need schools to open up, and so on. I can work from home for years with a laptop, most people can't. I said: One segment of that group I'm sympathetic to are those that have lost their income and the state and fed have completely failed to even provide the money that's been promised thus far and/or secure basic protections for the 30,000,000+ newly unemployed (and soon to be uninsured) people over the last month or so.. But they don't actually want to "go back to normal" because "normal" is basically a constant crime against humanity. They just prefer that to that+pandemic, and Democrats have trained their followers in lesser evilism. | ||
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pmh
1351 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On May 12 2020 03:37 Doodsmack wrote: Thanks for posting the article. Good to keep in mind as events play out.Some interesting reporting from the NYT back in 2017. Cartwright worked in Obama's first administration and was his favorite general. The article does not contain the phrase "rule of law" nor does it contain a hint of criticism of Obama's decision. Obama Pardons James Cartwright, General Who Lied to F.B.I. in Leak Case https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/us/politics/obama-pardons-james-cartwright-general-who-lied-to-fbi-in-leak-case.html | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
On May 12 2020 03:40 farvacola wrote: Lol, why don’t you also post the article that pointed you to that NYT piece as well? Or are you going to pretend that you stumbled upon this by your lonesome? I hope he posts it  | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 12 2020 03:40 farvacola wrote: Lol, why don’t you also post the article that pointed you to that NYT piece as well? Or are you going to pretend that you stumbled upon this by your lonesome? Tbh I didn't read the main article but it seemed that the NYT article was the story really. | ||
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