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On March 21 2020 09:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
Has anyone heard anything from that Joe Biden fellow lately?
Hell what are the Democrats by and large even doing lately? Even Trump and the GOP are putting in place pretty decisive measures, Bernie’s harnessing his powers and the Bros pretty well for grass roots efforts and PSAs around the pandemic.
This is literally the last time Joe Biden has been seen publicly to my knowledge
Democrats have been trying to fight for means testing an already (corporation favoring) paltry emergency aid package.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
I have to say, I'm very impressed with what Bernie is trying to do right now. The response to this coronavirus outbreak is likely going to matter more than even the result of the next general election, and he's going all-in on stopping the bailout of the industries that least deserve one and are only getting it because they cried the loudest. I don't know how much can or can't change in a government and country known heavily for corporatism and bailouts for the wealthy, but there's no fight more worth fighting for while the chance still exists.
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Northern Ireland25330 Posts
On March 21 2020 13:48 LegalLord wrote:
I have to say, I'm very impressed with what Bernie is trying to do right now. The response to this coronavirus outbreak is likely going to matter more than even the result of the next general election, and he's going all-in on stopping the bailout of the industries that least deserve one and are only getting it because they cried the loudest. I don't know how much can or can't change in a government and country known heavily for corporatism and bailouts for the wealthy, but there's no fight more worth fighting for while the chance still exists.
Similarly here, I mean I tend to like Bernie anyway but he’s showing some responsible leadership at this time on these important issues.
Even still there’s certainly going to be bailouts of things many of us don’t want bailed out, but hopefully it’s not all of them, or if they are bailed out there’ll be some caveats.
Airlines have got away with so many anti-consumer practices and gouging that simply wouldn’t fly in other industries for years for example.
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On March 21 2020 13:48 LegalLord wrote:
I have to say, I'm very impressed with what Bernie is trying to do right now. The response to this coronavirus outbreak is likely going to matter more than even the result of the next general election, and he's going all-in on stopping the bailout of the industries that least deserve one and are only getting it because they cried the loudest. I don't know how much can or can't change in a government and country known heavily for corporatism and bailouts for the wealthy, but there's no fight more worth fighting for while the chance still exists.
This election is the last time I'm voting for a democrat "no matter what". From now on they are going to need to earn my vote.
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On March 21 2020 22:47 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2020 13:48 LegalLord wrote:
I have to say, I'm very impressed with what Bernie is trying to do right now. The response to this coronavirus outbreak is likely going to matter more than even the result of the next general election, and he's going all-in on stopping the bailout of the industries that least deserve one and are only getting it because they cried the loudest. I don't know how much can or can't change in a government and country known heavily for corporatism and bailouts for the wealthy, but there's no fight more worth fighting for while the chance still exists. This election is the last time I'm voting for a democrat "no matter what". From now on they are going to need to earn my vote.
And since many liberals and progressives share your views and don't agree on what means "earning their vote" means, you can expect centrists to lose because they didn't "earn the votes" of the leftists and leftitsts to lose because they didn't "earn the vote" of the centrists.
Must be nice to be a republican. You can be the most awful human being and the most incompetent politician ever, you can always count on the democrats to self destroy themselves because they just don't have the political maturity to compromise. And that's valid for both progressives and liberals.
Fight for your ideas, campaign for the people you believe in, engage yourself in the primaries, and then vote for whoever the fuck is chosen. Yeah, sometimes it's gonna stinck - that's democracy. But remember, if you are a leftist, you will need the centrists to win when your guy win the primaries. So be a grown up, and do what you expect the other guys to do.
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On March 21 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2020 22:47 mierin wrote:On March 21 2020 13:48 LegalLord wrote:
I have to say, I'm very impressed with what Bernie is trying to do right now. The response to this coronavirus outbreak is likely going to matter more than even the result of the next general election, and he's going all-in on stopping the bailout of the industries that least deserve one and are only getting it because they cried the loudest. I don't know how much can or can't change in a government and country known heavily for corporatism and bailouts for the wealthy, but there's no fight more worth fighting for while the chance still exists. This election is the last time I'm voting for a democrat "no matter what". From now on they are going to need to earn my vote. And since many liberals and progressives share your views and don't agree on what means "earning their vote" means, you can expect centrists to lose because they didn't "earn the votes" of the leftists and leftitsts to lose because they didn't "earn the vote" of the centrists. Must be nice to be a republican. You can be the most awful human being and the most incompetent politician ever, you can always count on the democrats to self destroy themselves because they just don't have the political maturity to compromise. And that's valid for both progressives and liberals. Fight for your ideas, campaign for the people you believe in, engage yourself in the primaries, and then vote for whoever the fuck is chosen. Yeah, sometimes it's gonna stinck - that's democracy. But remember, if you are a leftist, you will need the centrists to win when your guy win the primaries. So be a grown up, and do what you expect the other guys to do.
I think the hole in this argument is that neoliberals constantly compromise. Obama is a great example. Called too progressive by Clinton, he compromised with the banks. Called too radical by Republicans he compromised again on practically everything. Pelosi has compromised with Trump multiple times to pass his space force, fund his concentration camps, this corona response, etc... Joe Biden is running on compromising with Republicans and even floated a Republican VP.
Centrism is a constant compromise of relativity imo. The problem is who they are and aren't willing to compromise with and on what. The paternalistic "grow up" rhetoric isn't reflective of its intended message either.
What Republicans learned is the further right they run the further right they drag centrists and neoliberals (progressives too really) wanting to win the "rational/reasonable" among them with unilateral compromise
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There's no compromising when one side's beliefs are "if you're poor, I don't care if you die for having health problems that are easily treatable because otherwise billionaires might not be as obscenely wealthy, the economy is more important than human life"
If you think that's childish, you're just lucky enough to not have to experience that. But centrists and neoliberals preaching compromise never seem to explain what their policies are good for or how they benefit anyone other than "progressive policies wouldn't pass" and other vague electability arguments
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On March 21 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2020 22:47 mierin wrote:On March 21 2020 13:48 LegalLord wrote:
I have to say, I'm very impressed with what Bernie is trying to do right now. The response to this coronavirus outbreak is likely going to matter more than even the result of the next general election, and he's going all-in on stopping the bailout of the industries that least deserve one and are only getting it because they cried the loudest. I don't know how much can or can't change in a government and country known heavily for corporatism and bailouts for the wealthy, but there's no fight more worth fighting for while the chance still exists. This election is the last time I'm voting for a democrat "no matter what". From now on they are going to need to earn my vote. And since many liberals and progressives share your views and don't agree on what means "earning their vote" means, you can expect centrists to lose because they didn't "earn the votes" of the leftists and leftitsts to lose because they didn't "earn the vote" of the centrists. Must be nice to be a republican. You can be the most awful human being and the most incompetent politician ever, you can always count on the democrats to self destroy themselves because they just don't have the political maturity to compromise. And that's valid for both progressives and liberals. Fight for your ideas, campaign for the people you believe in, engage yourself in the primaries, and then vote for whoever the fuck is chosen. Yeah, sometimes it's gonna stinck - that's democracy. But remember, if you are a leftist, you will need the centrists to win when your guy win the primaries. So be a grown up, and do what you expect the other guys to do.
I'm curious what the general election victory record is when the Democratic party picks the more progressive candidate as their nominee as opposed to the neoliberal one in recent history. Maybe the Democratic party needs to be more focused on actually winning as opposed to following the internal focus group.
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I mean, what data should be used instead of the "internal focus group" i.e. people in the party voting? There's been a clear rejection of the party intervening in favor of a candidate be it directly via superdelegates or indirectly via endorsements.
Should the party only overrule the popular opinion when it's "the right thing to do" or "the best strategy to win the general" according to the party leadership? That seems like the only thing even less likely to result in a progressive Democratic nominee than the current primary system.
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On March 22 2020 02:15 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, what data should be used instead of the "internal focus group" i.e. people in the party voting? There's been a clear rejection of the party intervening in favor of a candidate be it directly via superdelegates or indirectly via endorsements.
Should the party only overrule the popular opinion when it's "the right thing to do" or "the best strategy to win the general" according to the party leadership? That seems like the only thing even less likely to result in a progressive Democratic nominee than the current primary system.
The general election. You know, actually winning. If you keep forcing the more centrist corporate envoy and they keep losing... maybe don't do that?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
So, a thought on the proposed $50 billion airline bailout...
That's a lot of money. More than the combined market cap of United, American, and Southwest right now, might even be more than their pre-crash cap. But what good is it going to do when the reality is that people aren't going to be flying much for the foreseeable future? Does it make sense for these airlines to fly when no one's flying? Does it make sense for Boeing to make jets if no one's buying? Does it make sense to make components, and so on?
Obviously not, so the people in those industries are going to get pummeled either way. But I can only wonder what the actual benefits are for spending this gigantic sum of money. Giving some liquidity so they can prevent a disorderly collapse and instead just quietly wind down operations? I could support that. But Boeing just a month ago drew a $6 billion line of credit when they saw this collapse coming. I suspect the only ones that will be "bailed out" by this bailout is going to be the credit holders of the highly indebted airliners, transferring the debt load onto the government before the businesses head into a clear downward spiral.
Air travel isn't going to come roaring back any time soon. This bailout is a fool's errand.
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Proping up Boeing is important atleast "in theory" for the military. The rest is just corporate socialism it doesn't really matter what companies fill our passenger airways as long as they're served
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Prop up Boeing and force them to do a massive airlift service to transport necessary medical supplies as they're produced. Stuff like that is gonna happen sooner or later, depends when the powers that be realize that avoidable loss of life is gonna splash across the US in larger and larger waves. A significant number of people in my neck of woods are still not taking this seriously, I saw way more full parking lots outside stores than I had hoped. The Cabelas, an outdoorsman big box store, was completely full, likely with people buying guns and ammo.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Boeing can survive this without a bailout. I'm sure they'll have to do some painful cuts - about time to throw the 737 MAX in the trash where it belongs, since at the end of this no one's going to be buying - but they already have a profitable core business that will survive these troubles. Passenger travel has gone tits-up and no amount of bailout can stop that, and if Lockheed & Northrop are any indication Boeing's military side doesn't need any more of a bailout than it already has gotten.
Buying airlift services from the airlines (not Boeing) might not be a bad idea. I heard some 787's are doing cargo trips through China in the absence of passengers to ferry.
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Are people intending to vote for Joe Biden not concerned he can't even meet the incredibly low bar Trump is by being present during a crisis?
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I'm curious about what you guys think of Bloomberg now that his train has chugged off. Still think he was the best shot you had at not having Trump in office again.
I've seen a bit of Biden and think to myself "Really?This dude is the alternative to Trump?"
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On March 22 2020 08:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Are people intending to vote for Joe Biden not concerned he can't even meet the incredibly low bar Trump is by being present during a crisis?
Like when Trump was sleeping during a Corona virus meeting?
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On March 22 2020 08:10 Vivax wrote:
I'm curious about what you guys think of Bloomberg now that his train has chugged off. Still think he was the best shot you had at not having Trump in office again.
I've seen a bit of Biden and think to myself "Really?This dude is the alternative to Trump?"
He's a Republican who was running to stop Bernie. He did what he could do, paid off Democrats so he could abandon his pledge, and now will continue being a Republican.
Cuomo is the best centrists have to offer imo and he's clearly head and shoulders better than Biden, despite also having bad politics imo.
On March 22 2020 08:12 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2020 08:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Are people intending to vote for Joe Biden not concerned he can't even meet the incredibly low bar Trump is by being present during a crisis? Like when Trump was sleeping during a Corona virus meeting?
He was at the meeting to be seen "sleeping" at least lol
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On March 22 2020 08:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2020 08:10 Vivax wrote:
I'm curious about what you guys think of Bloomberg now that his train has chugged off. Still think he was the best shot you had at not having Trump in office again.
I've seen a bit of Biden and think to myself "Really?This dude is the alternative to Trump?" He's a Republican who was running to stop Bernie. He did what he could do, paid off Democrats so he could abandon his pledge, and now will continue being a Republican. Cuomo is the best centrists have to offer imo and he's clearly head and shoulders better than Biden, despite also having bad politics imo. Show nested quote +On March 22 2020 08:12 Gahlo wrote:On March 22 2020 08:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Are people intending to vote for Joe Biden not concerned he can't even meet the incredibly low bar Trump is by being present during a crisis? Like when Trump was sleeping during a Corona virus meeting? He was at the meeting to be seen sleeping at least lol
Come on man, don't make me defend Biden.
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On March 22 2020 08:17 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2020 08:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2020 08:10 Vivax wrote:
I'm curious about what you guys think of Bloomberg now that his train has chugged off. Still think he was the best shot you had at not having Trump in office again.
I've seen a bit of Biden and think to myself "Really?This dude is the alternative to Trump?" He's a Republican who was running to stop Bernie. He did what he could do, paid off Democrats so he could abandon his pledge, and now will continue being a Republican. Cuomo is the best centrists have to offer imo and he's clearly head and shoulders better than Biden, despite also having bad politics imo. On March 22 2020 08:12 Gahlo wrote:On March 22 2020 08:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Are people intending to vote for Joe Biden not concerned he can't even meet the incredibly low bar Trump is by being present during a crisis? Like when Trump was sleeping during a Corona virus meeting? He was at the meeting to be seen sleeping at least lol Come on man, don't make me defend Biden.
Don't then? He's a terrible candidate that is unable to meet the absolute bare minimum of being seen during a crisis. That should be unacceptable to voters, if it isn't they aren't any better than Trump supporters in that way imo.
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EPT
