|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
|
Warren complimenting Klob is worrying me. If she actually doesn't endorse Bernie, she is so completely toast to all progressives.
If their data tells them "a lot of Bernie supporters also like Warren,l", they should also understand that will no longer be true if she endorses anyone who isn't progressive.
|
On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
In the UK we pay income tax and national insurance (which is supposed to spent on the NHS).
In total, when i was working last year, these added up to 12.36%. You haven't left an option for that.
I used this tool: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php
and a salary of £18,000 for that.
|
Northern Ireland26021 Posts
On February 12 2020 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
In the UK we pay income tax and national insurance (which is supposed to spent on the NHS). In total, when i was working last year, these added up to 12.36%. You haven't left an option for that. I used this tool: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.phpand a salary of £18,000 for that.
Are we going to factor in VAT here too?
That 80-90% tax rate on me daily pack of fags does rather add up.
|
On February 12 2020 22:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren complimenting Klob is worrying me. If she actually doesn't endorse Bernie, she is so completely toast to all progressives.
If their data tells them "a lot of Bernie supporters also like Warren,l", they should also understand that will no longer be true if she endorses anyone who isn't progressive.
Well, just yesterday, you did say:
On February 12 2020 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren needs to endorse Bernie ASAP if she actually believes in what she is campaigning on. If she waits too long and the centrists start endorsing each other, this will get bad quick.
Frankly the problem is probably just that. I think the past however many years have shown that she doesn't so strongly believe in what she claims, and that she is often very opportunistic with her support.
|
On February 12 2020 22:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
In the UK we pay income tax and national insurance (which is supposed to spent on the NHS). In total, when i was working last year, these added up to 12.36%. You haven't left an option for that. I used this tool: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.phpand a salary of £18,000 for that. Are we going to factor in VAT here too? That 80-90% tax rate on me daily pack of fags does rather add up.
I guess if we add VAT you would have to do maths that i don't know how to do (this applies to basically all maths) but it would be 12.36% on income plus 20% on purchases.
|
On February 12 2020 22:52 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 22:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren complimenting Klob is worrying me. If she actually doesn't endorse Bernie, she is so completely toast to all progressives.
If their data tells them "a lot of Bernie supporters also like Warren,l", they should also understand that will no longer be true if she endorses anyone who isn't progressive. Well, just yesterday, you did say: Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren needs to endorse Bernie ASAP if she actually believes in what she is campaigning on. If she waits too long and the centrists start endorsing each other, this will get bad quick. Frankly the problem is probably just that. I think the past however many years have shown that she doesn't so strongly believe in what she claims, and that she is often very opportunistic with her support.
I know. I'm still in the denial stages. I'm very worried Bernie is gonna get overtaken after others drop out. Splitting Klob, Biden and Buttigieg is working great for now, but I don't expect it to last.
Hopefully at least Yang hops on board T_T
|
On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
I'm at 36% personally, and that's not even taking into account deductible, remaining costs above it, or co-pays.
|
On February 12 2020 23:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
I'm at 36% personally, and that's not even taking into accoutn deductible, remaining costs above it, or co-pays.
Sorry guys i was walking while posting and flubbed up with the 50-60% bracket that i didn't want to include.
|
On February 12 2020 22:54 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 22:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
In the UK we pay income tax and national insurance (which is supposed to spent on the NHS). In total, when i was working last year, these added up to 12.36%. You haven't left an option for that. I used this tool: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.phpand a salary of £18,000 for that. Are we going to factor in VAT here too? That 80-90% tax rate on me daily pack of fags does rather add up. I guess if we add VAT you would have to do maths that i don't know how to do (this applies to basically all maths) but it would be 12.36% on income plus 20% on purchases.
The problem is that most tax systems are so complicated that it is really hard to get a good answer to the question of how much of your income is spent on taxes. You would basically need to actually look at peoples consumption habits, and possibly average over a reasonable slice of the population.
In Germany for example, there are a bunch of different VAT levels, plus some vice taxes. So you can't simply say that you have to pay 20% of the money you earn after taxes as VAT (that would be pretty easy to calculate, simply multiply the money remaining. 60% after income taxes * 80% after VAT means you pay a total of 1-0.8*0.6=52% in taxes), because it depends on what kind of stuff you are buying. If you are buying more food, then there is less VAT onto that stuff. If you are buying lots of booze and cigarettes, you are spending a lot more on taxes.
In you example, you would pay a total of about 30% in taxes. (1-(1-0.1236)*0.8)= 0.29888
|
On February 12 2020 23:10 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 22:54 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 12 2020 22:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
In the UK we pay income tax and national insurance (which is supposed to spent on the NHS). In total, when i was working last year, these added up to 12.36%. You haven't left an option for that. I used this tool: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.phpand a salary of £18,000 for that. Are we going to factor in VAT here too? That 80-90% tax rate on me daily pack of fags does rather add up. I guess if we add VAT you would have to do maths that i don't know how to do (this applies to basically all maths) but it would be 12.36% on income plus 20% on purchases. The problem is that most tax systems are so complicated that it is really hard to get a good answer to the question of how much of your income is spent on taxes. You would basically need to actually look at peoples consumption habits, and possibly average over a reasonable slice of the population. In Germany for example, there are a bunch of different VAT levels, plus some vice taxes. So you can't simply say that you have to pay 20% of the money you earn after taxes as VAT (that would be pretty easy to calculate, simply multiply the money remaining. 60% after income taxes * 80% after VAT means you pay a total of 1-0.8*0.6=52% in taxes), because it depends on what kind of stuff you are buying. If you are buying more food, then there is less VAT onto that stuff. If you are buying lots of booze and cigarettes, you are spending a lot more on taxes. In you example, you would pay a total of about 30% in taxes. (1-(1-0.1236)*0.8)= 0.29888
I took the poll to mean income tax.
|
On February 12 2020 23:22 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 23:10 Simberto wrote:On February 12 2020 22:54 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 12 2020 22:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
In the UK we pay income tax and national insurance (which is supposed to spent on the NHS). In total, when i was working last year, these added up to 12.36%. You haven't left an option for that. I used this tool: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.phpand a salary of £18,000 for that. Are we going to factor in VAT here too? That 80-90% tax rate on me daily pack of fags does rather add up. I guess if we add VAT you would have to do maths that i don't know how to do (this applies to basically all maths) but it would be 12.36% on income plus 20% on purchases. The problem is that most tax systems are so complicated that it is really hard to get a good answer to the question of how much of your income is spent on taxes. You would basically need to actually look at peoples consumption habits, and possibly average over a reasonable slice of the population. In Germany for example, there are a bunch of different VAT levels, plus some vice taxes. So you can't simply say that you have to pay 20% of the money you earn after taxes as VAT (that would be pretty easy to calculate, simply multiply the money remaining. 60% after income taxes * 80% after VAT means you pay a total of 1-0.8*0.6=52% in taxes), because it depends on what kind of stuff you are buying. If you are buying more food, then there is less VAT onto that stuff. If you are buying lots of booze and cigarettes, you are spending a lot more on taxes. In you example, you would pay a total of about 30% in taxes. (1-(1-0.1236)*0.8)= 0.29888 I took the poll to mean income tax.
Correct the intent was for income tax, not total tax. The intent was to gauge how much income would change if the income tax was raised to the 40-50% required for some of bernie's initiatives.
|
On February 12 2020 22:58 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 22:52 LegalLord wrote:On February 12 2020 22:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren complimenting Klob is worrying me. If she actually doesn't endorse Bernie, she is so completely toast to all progressives.
If their data tells them "a lot of Bernie supporters also like Warren,l", they should also understand that will no longer be true if she endorses anyone who isn't progressive. Well, just yesterday, you did say: On February 12 2020 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren needs to endorse Bernie ASAP if she actually believes in what she is campaigning on. If she waits too long and the centrists start endorsing each other, this will get bad quick. Frankly the problem is probably just that. I think the past however many years have shown that she doesn't so strongly believe in what she claims, and that she is often very opportunistic with her support. I know. I'm still in the denial stages. I'm very worried Bernie is gonna get overtaken after others drop out. Splitting Klob, Biden and Buttigieg is working great for now, but I don't expect it to last. Hopefully at least Yang hops on board T_T
It's true. Bernie definitely needs something big to play into his favor in short order. A key endorsement, or a couple of massive (straight majority) wins in the next few states. Feels like there are a lot of Democrats who, while they aren't going to be strictly opposed to Bernie, will need some big push to feel that he's the viable opposition they want in the general. Not that any of the other candidates are showing that they have what it takes either - probably why the field is as divided as it is right now.
|
On February 12 2020 23:27 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 23:22 Gahlo wrote:On February 12 2020 23:10 Simberto wrote:On February 12 2020 22:54 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 12 2020 22:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
In the UK we pay income tax and national insurance (which is supposed to spent on the NHS). In total, when i was working last year, these added up to 12.36%. You haven't left an option for that. I used this tool: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.phpand a salary of £18,000 for that. Are we going to factor in VAT here too? That 80-90% tax rate on me daily pack of fags does rather add up. I guess if we add VAT you would have to do maths that i don't know how to do (this applies to basically all maths) but it would be 12.36% on income plus 20% on purchases. The problem is that most tax systems are so complicated that it is really hard to get a good answer to the question of how much of your income is spent on taxes. You would basically need to actually look at peoples consumption habits, and possibly average over a reasonable slice of the population. In Germany for example, there are a bunch of different VAT levels, plus some vice taxes. So you can't simply say that you have to pay 20% of the money you earn after taxes as VAT (that would be pretty easy to calculate, simply multiply the money remaining. 60% after income taxes * 80% after VAT means you pay a total of 1-0.8*0.6=52% in taxes), because it depends on what kind of stuff you are buying. If you are buying more food, then there is less VAT onto that stuff. If you are buying lots of booze and cigarettes, you are spending a lot more on taxes. In you example, you would pay a total of about 30% in taxes. (1-(1-0.1236)*0.8)= 0.29888 I took the poll to mean income tax. Correct the intent was for income tax, not total tax. The intent was to gauge how much income would change if the income tax was raised to the 40-50% required for some of bernie's initiatives.
An increase to a 40-50% income tax is not “required” for any of Bernie’s policies, funding mechanisms are very much an item of dispute.
|
On February 12 2020 22:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren complimenting Klob is worrying me. If she actually doesn't endorse Bernie, she is so completely toast to all progressives.
If their data tells them "a lot of Bernie supporters also like Warren,l", they should also understand that will no longer be true if she endorses anyone who isn't progressive.
I think you're jumping to conclusions too much, i mean.... endorsements?
She complimented an opponent who beat her. Warren needed to be 3rd, she was beaten by the other fellow female candidate.
Since her biggest dive in polls came after she tried to go after Bernie, maybe her consultants told her to be a gracious loser, and appeal to the female voters, by saying a couple of nice words about A.K.... girl power and all that
|
Is there anything we should read in Bill Weld taking 9.1% of the votes in the NH republican primary? It shows more of a resistance against Trump than the house of senate republicans do at least?
|
Norway28706 Posts
On February 12 2020 13:49 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 13:42 StasisField wrote:On February 12 2020 13:12 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 12:13 StasisField wrote:On February 12 2020 11:42 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 11:34 StasisField wrote:On February 12 2020 11:26 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 11:21 Lmui wrote:On February 12 2020 10:08 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
Why? His economic policies for the most part. He would ruin the country, even if I happen to agree with some of his other stances. Fucking Trump ballooned your deficit by a 500 billion dollars a year and you get less done now. You could've had universal healthcare for less money. I never said Trump was good, but compared to Bernie, I'll run to the polls. Plus, it's hilarious to see people who supported Obama talk about deficits. I don't want "Green" Chavez V2 in the WH. So can you specifically list which of his policies you think will ruin this country or...? There are a lot, I'll list 4 to start with: Student debt forgiveness Green New Deal Medicare for All Delusion that "rich" tax increases will pay for any of his socialist drivel 1. Studies show this would actually boost the economy 2. This would create countless jobs and put us on a track of sustainability 3. Even a study by the Koch brothers shows this M4A would save money 4. It's not a delusion and these aren't even socialist policies. Care to explain why basically every other developed country on earth can do these things but us? Do you actually think your bullet points there are going to convince anyone? Also, yes, nationalizing healthcare, destroying the educational loan market (and post-secondary confidence...imagine you're the unlucky fool who has to pay loans because you're 16, or 37 and just happened to go to college after this forgiveness lol...), and rhetoric decrying making money aren't anything close to socialism. /Rollseyes By the way, if you want to follow your argument, why do you fight against strict immigration controls? Almost every other developed country on earth has stricter controls than we do. That's a bad non-starter of an argument, in fact, it's not one because it's a combination of Argumentum ad populum and bandwagon fallacy. No, I don't. i just wanted to see how much you would lash out from someone challenging your claims with the same amount of effort you put in to making your claims. You didn't disappoint  Oh, you mean the "unlucky fool" who won't have to pay for college either because there will be a tax that also pays for future college students and trade school students? So unlucky! Yup, you got it. It's not socialism! It's called Social Democracy which is different from Democratic Socialism and Socialism. To make this short; SD = economic benefits gained from capitalism helps everyone, not just the wealthy and DS = a transition from Capitalism to Socialism. You know what's funny? I directed my question at stances I know you have. You have no idea what I believe on immigration. What's worse: asking someone to answer for their beliefs or making up someone's beliefs and asking them to answer for their made up beliefs? I think we're both smart enough to figure that out EDIT: Grammar So you want to nationalize healthcare, post-secondary schooling, and massively increase taxes (if you want to emulate countries like Denmark you're going to have to increase middle class taxes from the 20-25% they are now to 50-55% like they are in Denmark, Netherlands, etc.), and then on top of that centrally plan the energy sector? Yeah, that's not socialism, but hey, guess not if you just write democracy around it.
No European country taxes 50-55% of the middle class. 40-45% would be a fairer estimate, and that includes stuff like VAT. As a middle income Norwegian I've never paid more than 30% of my paycheck, although with us, that is only possible due to the actually socialist policy of nationalizing our oil resources. (This is the single piece of policy most influential in explaining Norway's success, tbh.)
I mean, I agree with the message that you can't get Scandinavian levels of social democracy without higher taxes across the board. My understanding is that it is true that the US has a more progressive tax code than Scandinavian countries as it is - it's just well beyond counter-balanced by Scandinavian countries having significantly more egalitarian wages.
Wealth tax and inheritance taxes are independent goals- you don't want individuals to accrue too much money (and thus power) and you don't want the formation of dynasties. These are, however, not how you pay for Scandinavian levels of welfare, education and healthcare. That does require some increase across the board. But the idea that Sanders is suddenly gonna double your taxes, that's obviously ridiculous, and something that will only ring true for people who are so wealthy and who have been paying so little taxes that it won't make any tangible difference for them.
5% increase for the middle class though? I'd expect that to be a requirement fairly quickly/ depends a bit on how much Sanders can successfully reduce military spending I guess.
|
A key issue that renders the taxation project a black box of sorts is that the IRS has not been properly funded for many years now, which has dramatically reduced the agency’s ability to fight sophisticated corporate tax payers who do all sorts of borderline illegal things with their filings and payments.
The estimates of what the IRS could gather if it were resourced correctly, at the current tax rates, are well into the billions upon billions of dollars. If the IRS were funded and given a mandate to track down sophisticated dodgers, and the military/federal contractor bloat were reduced by even 15-20%, there’s a very good chance that the current tax regime would not need to change much at all.
|
On February 12 2020 22:37 Trainrunnef wrote:Poll: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to30-40% (9) 47% 20-30% (6) 32% 40-50% (3) 16% 50-60% (1) 5% i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes. (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: what % of gross pay do taxes, ins. and stud. loans add up to (Vote): 20-30%
(Vote): 30-40%
(Vote): 40-50%
(Vote): 50-60%
(Vote): i don't pay for insurance outside of taxes.
You should probably separate this into US residents vs others to have any value
|
On February 12 2020 22:58 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 22:52 LegalLord wrote:On February 12 2020 22:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren complimenting Klob is worrying me. If she actually doesn't endorse Bernie, she is so completely toast to all progressives.
If their data tells them "a lot of Bernie supporters also like Warren,l", they should also understand that will no longer be true if she endorses anyone who isn't progressive. Well, just yesterday, you did say: On February 12 2020 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren needs to endorse Bernie ASAP if she actually believes in what she is campaigning on. If she waits too long and the centrists start endorsing each other, this will get bad quick. Frankly the problem is probably just that. I think the past however many years have shown that she doesn't so strongly believe in what she claims, and that she is often very opportunistic with her support. I know. I'm still in the denial stages. I'm very worried Bernie is gonna get overtaken after others drop out. Splitting Klob, Biden and Buttigieg is working great for now, but I don't expect it to last. Hopefully at least Yang hops on board T_T
Let's see if "Black people" actually really like Biden and don't like Buttigieg (as in Biden implodes further and Buttigied doesn't gain from that). Else i also don't see Bernie taking this in the end...
Btw: It's still weird to me that stuff like "the black vote" is a thing in the US.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
