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On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time
As you say, why wouldn't they.
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On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they.
So would we wait till 2024 to call the US a dictatorship or is it if/when Trump wins in 2020?
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On December 13 2019 10:24 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 09:50 JimmiC wrote:On December 13 2019 07:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 13 2019 05:01 JimmiC wrote:On December 13 2019 04:49 Nebuchad wrote:
Is there a reasoning that you have used to deduce that the problem isn't the capitalist class? They are certainly part of the problem, they are just not the only problem, it is not just the capitalist class that is destroying the planet. The capitalist class are not the only ones who have greed and selfishness. Can you give me some real life examples of socialist systems in practice that have removed these problems? So far to me the best ones are democracies, with lots of regulations on the capitalism. Hence why I continually talk about a cultural shift rather than any abstract capitalist class. There is no capitalist class, everyone is a capitalist, even those who fundamentally disagree with it still have to live within that world. As long as people still want frivolous stuff, and all the modern accoutrements you can impose whatever system on people you want you’re still going to have these issues when it comes to climate change. If we societally untethered a bit from the pursuit of wealth and material things it would aid climate action far more than the odd carbon tax or whatever. We could probably be mentally healthier as a society too if we retooled a bit. But yeah I do agree, people on my Facebook feed share all the climate activism stuff and then complain any time any kind of tax is imposed that might disadvantage their lifestyles. Im totally behind untethering the pursuit of wealth and material things from society. Im not sure how that is done while maintaining personal freedom. Some sort of democratic socialism makes sense, but the strength and weakness of democracy is you need the majority of people (or votes depending how those are organized) to agree on a course of action. And so far we are super far from a consensus on what to do, even environmentalists argue about what sorts of things are better, like recycling for example. It makes change slow because it is hard to convince people to give up convenience and stuff for the greater good, it is easier to find a point of blame or believe that their actions dont matter on the grand scheme of things. You need to find a way to convince a huge group of people that their individual actions do matter, or enforce it and enforcing it has a whole host of issues within democracy and even more in dictatorships. We’re not far from a consensus on what to do. What needs done is obvious and is overly complicated by people’s and society‘s ‘oh it’s too complicated’ The solution is already there, or at least the mitigation, people don’t want to do it.
We're pretty far from a consensus on what to do, at least here in the US. Things are very polarized.
And in the UK a candidate of a major party identified himself as a democratic socialist (as far as I am aware) and got eviscerated in one of the worst losses of his party's history. Doesnt sound like a consensus for your solution.
What needs to be done might be obvious to everybody with an opinion, but there is nothing close to a consensus as far as I can tell.
My obvious is the complete opposite of your and any other democratic socialist's obvious, for example.
I have to agree with jimmi here - you either have to convince people or force them to fall in line with your agenda.
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On December 14 2019 04:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they. So would we wait till 2024 to call the US a dictatorship or is it if/when Trump wins in 2020? 2020 would probably be a bit soon unless there is evidence of 'real' election fraud beyond ad and disinformation campaigns.
Actual changes to the constitution to allow Trump beyond 2 terms are realistically impossible and I have enough faith left in the system to not believe a coup to keep him in power would actually work.
That said, if (when) impeachment fails in the Senate despite the overwhelming evidence, including strait up admissions of guilt from Trump, I think its fair to say the systems to keep a President accountable have failed. And who knows where that is going to lead.
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On December 14 2019 05:06 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 04:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they. So would we wait till 2024 to call the US a dictatorship or is it if/when Trump wins in 2020? 2020 would probably be a bit soon unless there is evidence of 'real' election fraud beyond ad and disinformation campaigns. Actual changes to the constitution to allow Trump beyond 2 terms are realistically impossible and I have enough faith left in the system to not believe a coup to keep him in power would actually work. That said, if (when) impeachment fails in the Senate despite the overwhelming evidence, including strait up admissions of guilt from Trump, I think its fair to say the systems to keep a President accountable have failed. And who knows where that is going to lead.
Changing the constitution isn't Trump's style. Third term by executive order seems more like it. Though he'll be pretty old so just rigging the election and installing a replacement seems more practical. His opposition will be too busy looking for "real" election fraud instead of the not-real fraud they are impeaching him for not treating as real.
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On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they.
Trump's campaign didn't work with the russians in 2016, they tried to work with the russians and failed mostly though incompetence.
Although i'm waiting for Trump to brag that Putin endorses him.
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As way too early prediction, I think the 2024 GOP primaries will be Romney vs the Trump picked successor, who I don’t think will be Pence.
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On December 14 2019 08:51 JimmiC wrote:
If were throwing out out predictions I think Trumps successor will have the last name of "Trump".
Yeah that’s a safe bet lol
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On December 14 2019 04:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they. So would we wait till 2024 to call the US a dictatorship or is it if/when Trump wins in 2020?
Oligarchy, surely?
The real power lies with the lobbyists and has done for a long time. What was that quote about the American media? "I like arguing with my friends about the opinions of billionaires. Sometimes someone turns up to defend the opinions of a different billionaire, but we defend our billionaire's opinions against him. Occasionally, one of us has an opinion of our own, but we dismiss it, because it's not that of a billionaire so it doesn't matter."
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On December 14 2019 04:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they. So would we wait till 2024 to call the US a dictatorship or is it if/when Trump wins in 2020?
I think 2024 is a really tough election for republicans.
This is connected slightly to a larger point which I’ve been thinking about for a while.
Trump is a brand. He’s an experience, he’s a populist figurehead that has a zealous fan base that’s energized by his personality, like Sanders to a certain extent. To you all he may be foul and disgusting: But if I had a dollar for every time Someone told me that they voted for him because “He didn’t sound like a politician” I’d be a rich man. Where I grew up he was referred to as “The Don” and everyone was enraptured with what he would do next love or hate him.
People didn’t vote for Trump (and most people don’t vote in general this way) for a nuanced policy advantage he would give them. Everyone on this thread is very knowledgeable and can get super granular with policy in a way people just don’t care enough to in the first week of November. It’s a reaction, it’s a sentiment. He arose at a particular time where people were distinctly sick of politics and God knows Hillary represented the machine to so many people.
Forgive me if I’m beating a dead horse that you all know, but it’s worth pointing out because if this is how trump got elected, it means that it won’t necessarily be a seamless transfer of momentum to the new candidate beyond Trump. In fact I’d bet against it.
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On December 14 2019 11:30 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 04:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they. So would we wait till 2024 to call the US a dictatorship or is it if/when Trump wins in 2020? I think 2024 is a really tough election for republicans. This is connected slightly to a larger point which I’ve been thinking about for a while. Trump is a brand. He’s an experience, he’s a populist figurehead that has a zealous fan base that’s energized by his personality, like Sanders to a certain extent. To you all he may be foul and disgusting: But if I had a dollar for every time Someone told me that they voted for him because “He didn’t sound like a politician” I’d be a rich man. Where I grew up he was referred to as “The Don” and everyone was enraptured with what he would do next love or hate him. People didn’t vote for Trump (and most people don’t vote in general this way) for a nuanced policy advantage he would give them. Everyone on this thread is very knowledgeable and can get super granular with policy in a way people just don’t care enough to in the first week of November. It’s a reaction, it’s a sentiment. He arose at a particular time where people were distinctly sick of politics and God knows Hillary represented the machine to so many people. Forgive me if I’m beating a dead horse that you all know, but it’s worth pointing out because if this is how trump got elected, it means that it won’t necessarily be a seamless transfer of momentum to the new candidate beyond Trump. In fact I’d bet against it.
I keep saying to myself, is Trump actually gaining followers/voters?
If the Senate acquits Trump, are people who are currently against Trump suddenly going to say to themselves "oh i guess he's a good guy after all"?
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On December 14 2019 11:52 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 11:30 Gorgonoth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they. So would we wait till 2024 to call the US a dictatorship or is it if/when Trump wins in 2020? I think 2024 is a really tough election for republicans. This is connected slightly to a larger point which I’ve been thinking about for a while. Trump is a brand. He’s an experience, he’s a populist figurehead that has a zealous fan base that’s energized by his personality, like Sanders to a certain extent. To you all he may be foul and disgusting: But if I had a dollar for every time Someone told me that they voted for him because “He didn’t sound like a politician” I’d be a rich man. Where I grew up he was referred to as “The Don” and everyone was enraptured with what he would do next love or hate him. People didn’t vote for Trump (and most people don’t vote in general this way) for a nuanced policy advantage he would give them. Everyone on this thread is very knowledgeable and can get super granular with policy in a way people just don’t care enough to in the first week of November. It’s a reaction, it’s a sentiment. He arose at a particular time where people were distinctly sick of politics and God knows Hillary represented the machine to so many people. Forgive me if I’m beating a dead horse that you all know, but it’s worth pointing out because if this is how trump got elected, it means that it won’t necessarily be a seamless transfer of momentum to the new candidate beyond Trump. In fact I’d bet against it. I keep saying to myself, is Trump actually gaining followers/voters? If the Senate acquits Trump, are people who are currently against Trump suddenly going to say to themselves "oh i guess he's a good guy after all"?
I doubt it. Nearly everyone is certain that the Senate will acquit Trump, because of the Republicans' loyalty to their new leader. It will come as a surprise to no one that Trump will stay in power for at least another year, so I can't see anyone changing their minds over it. As far as I can tell, people have chosen sides for or against Trump for a while now, and there aren't many fence-sitters left; even non-Trump conservatives still tend to fall in line and select him as the lesser of two evils against a Democratic opponent, regardless of this impeachment drama.
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On December 14 2019 11:52 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 11:30 Gorgonoth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 14 2019 04:45 Gorsameth wrote:On December 14 2019 04:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just playing things out a bit (provided the house passes impeachment despite bipartisan opposition) where do we go from there.
The 2020 election doesn't really matter if Democrats are right that Trump rigged the election and was working to rig 2020 and they failed to hold him accountable in both instances.
Why not rig 2020, what is anyone going to do about it? Russia has been planning to repeat their efforts in 2020 for the last 4 years. People around Trump (likely on his orders) are going to work with them just like last time As you say, why wouldn't they. So would we wait till 2024 to call the US a dictatorship or is it if/when Trump wins in 2020? I think 2024 is a really tough election for republicans. This is connected slightly to a larger point which I’ve been thinking about for a while. Trump is a brand. He’s an experience, he’s a populist figurehead that has a zealous fan base that’s energized by his personality, like Sanders to a certain extent. To you all he may be foul and disgusting: But if I had a dollar for every time Someone told me that they voted for him because “He didn’t sound like a politician” I’d be a rich man. Where I grew up he was referred to as “The Don” and everyone was enraptured with what he would do next love or hate him. People didn’t vote for Trump (and most people don’t vote in general this way) for a nuanced policy advantage he would give them. Everyone on this thread is very knowledgeable and can get super granular with policy in a way people just don’t care enough to in the first week of November. It’s a reaction, it’s a sentiment. He arose at a particular time where people were distinctly sick of politics and God knows Hillary represented the machine to so many people. Forgive me if I’m beating a dead horse that you all know, but it’s worth pointing out because if this is how trump got elected, it means that it won’t necessarily be a seamless transfer of momentum to the new candidate beyond Trump. In fact I’d bet against it. I keep saying to myself, is Trump actually gaining followers/voters? If the Senate acquits Trump, are people who are currently against Trump suddenly going to say to themselves "oh i guess he's a good guy after all"?
I think it could be a net positive for him in swing states.
The bottom line with the Impeachment process going forward is that it will put the matter to rest: one way or another.
In the miracle scenario that 67 senators pull the trigger and Trump is booted, Pence probably loses to the Democratic nominee and the Democratic/Republican coalition that brought him down will the historic highpoint for bipartisan cooperation.
Excluding that, the senate acquits Trump and we move on. This shifts focus away from Trump's behavior and the candidate running against him will not have that card to play or it will be a significantly weaker one. Remember that confidence in mainstream media has been and is continuing to nosedive. People get tired of narratives. For union workers in Pennsylvania, farmers in Ohio and Wisconsin, one of the biggest desire is for things that positively affect the economy for them. The Impeachment uproar you see in the news barely has ripples in the society so great is the disconnect between mainstream media and the average voter.
More to your point though, no it won't affect the majority of Democratic voters by a significant amount from what I can tell.
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Can Trump still run for president again if he's removed from office by the Senate? I know the Senate won't remove him, but I'm wondering if anything in the Constitution would stop him from just running in 2020 regardless of whether or not he's convicted.
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On December 14 2019 13:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Can Trump still run for president again if he's removed from office by the Senate? I know the Senate won't remove him, but I'm wondering if anything in the Constitution would stop him from just running in 2020 regardless of whether or not he's convicted.
This is what I got just looking at section 1
+ Show Spoiler +Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
So I think that's correct, but I do remember previous cases where a separate vote was held to determine if a convicted judge could hold office again in the senate. Odd, but I think in Trump's case if he's really impeached he's out for good.
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The man who violated a female reporter on live live tv has finally been charged with sexual assault.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-accused-slapping-reporters-bottom-095508603.html
The man accused of slapping a reporter's bottom during a live television report was arrested Friday, Savannah police said. Tommy Callaway, 43, was charged with misdemeanor sexual battery, Bianca Johnson of the Savannah police department confirmed to CBS News. Callaway posted bond, Johnson said.
To all of you thinking nothing would come of this because it "just a grope" and not rape. sexual assult = rape
Harvey Weinstien has reached a settlement on one of his charged without having to pay out any of his own money. It will be paid out by Miramax in bankruptcy proceedings
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/us/harvey-weinstein-settlement.html
After two years of legal wrangling, Harvey Weinstein and the board of his bankrupt film studio have reached a tentative $25 million settlement agreement with dozens of his alleged sexual misconduct victims, a deal that would not require the Hollywood producer to admit wrongdoing or pay anything to his accusers himself, according to lawyers involved in the negotiations.
Weinstien isnt out of the woods yet, but this settlement gives him a more favorabile chance of the other charges being settled and/or dismissed
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EPT
