US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1920

On December 03 2019 07:52 KwarK wrote:
We have American farmers killing themselves because the food supply is so over saturated that their labour now has negative value and their produce is less than worthless while we also have people starving. It’s a weird world we’ve created.

On December 03 2019 09:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why would they kill themselves. It's not like they are enslaved to labour for an oversaturated market with no alternative.

On December 03 2019 09:17 KwarK wrote:

Because being a farmer on the farm your great great grandfather bought and living in the house he built and being the one in a long line of farmers to lose the farm is tough, especially when your kids aren’t interested in farming for a loss and you’re working 18 hours a day to try to keep it going but the bills just keep mounting and the price of milk has dropped below the price of feed to get that milk but it’s not like you can just stop getting milk because the farm is mortgaged and you can’t scale production to the market that way so you just ask if the feed store will give you credit which is humiliating but you gotta do it but they won’t because everyone is asking for credit and they know as well as you do that things aren’t getting better and this isn’t just a bad year, it’s that the economics don’t make sense.

Farmers are killing themselves because within a capitalist economy that is the correct thing to do when the value of your labour goes negative. This is the market based solution. When enough of them kill themselves there will be less supply and we can reach the supply/suicide equilibrium as Adam Smith always wanted us to.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/27/586586267/as-milk-prices-decline-worries-about-dairy-farmer-suicides-rise

On December 03 2019 08:38 Foxxan wrote:
We dont have capitalism anywhere in the world today. What we have today is more in alignment with Cronyism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronyism


Capitalism is freedom. The individual owning the means of production and the fruit of ones labor. Which would and is freetrading.

It goes by the selfownership principle. Meaning, the individual owns ones own body, energy, emotions, actions etc.
In context, I own my self, I do not own you. If you attack me you do wrong since you dont own me. If I attack you I do wrong since i dont own you. I can decide what to do with my own property, i dont have the right to decide what to do with other peoples property. All individuals are equal to the law(natural law)

Goes hand in hand with consent and volyntarism.

There is no third party involved here, today a third party is involved all the time (Government.. The elephant in the room).
If I go to a boss of a corporation, and i want him to hire me. I can come up with a good or bad deal deponding on the circumstances and so forth.

If i am forced to make a deal. Is this the corporations fault? Its not. Its not the corporation that makes life miserable for you, its the GOVERNMENT. Instead of blaming the corporation, blame the real deal, GOVERNMENT!


(short read with concrete pictures)
https://www.capitalism.org/

This 8min video explains it better, good tempo with a lot of visuals about SELF-OWNERSHIP, the videos title is:
Philosophy of Liberty = Liberty in etymology; "free choice, freedom to do as one chooses,"



The self-ownership principle goes hand in hand with the homestead-principle.
To put it simple:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_principle


https://www.panarchy.org/rothbard/confiscation.html


Think about it, i cant point my finger at unoccupied/unseen land and say "i now own this land" and then get money if someone steps on there..
I need to buy it first, right? With real cash, real paper money. Correct?
From whom??? Who to buy it from? If I do not have the right to point my finger to this land and claim ownership of it, then that means I cant buy the land from someone else since.. No one can claim ownership of it that way.

An example of homesteady principle:

If i see unoccopied land. I create my own house at one spot, and I plant tomatoes in a small yard. And i now use this house and this land of tomatoes. I now own this house and this land and these tomatoes. Its mine. I can do what i please with it unless i cause harm to other peoples property(including their bodies and their material property).

My energy is around this house, and these tomatoes. So even if i travel on a vacation for lets say 1month, the energy will still linger.. However, if i walk away from the house for lets say 3years, my energy will vanish from this place.. And i therefore no longer own it..
Can someone else now claim ownership of this house and this yard? Of course. But the individual needs to use it.. Same principle applies to us all.. We are all equal the law(natural law)

You can only own what you work/use etc.

So if i plant tomatoes 3miles long.. I will not own this land since i cant use this land.
If i plant tomatoes 3miles long, and only use 5meters of this plantation. I now own all tomatoes within this 5meters, the rest of the tomatoes become public, anyone can take it.


What we have just gone through are natural laws, all natural laws are objective.

Socialism, communism, democracy are all based in violence and coercion.
Manmade law;
Based on dogmatic beliefs (constructs of the mind)
Complied with due to fear of punishment.
Differs in location due to whims of legislators (moral relativism)
Changes over time due to whims of legislators (moral relativism)


Natural law:

Based upon Principles and Truth (inherent to Creation)
Harmonized with, due to Knowledge and Understanding.
Universal; applies anywhere in the universe regardless of location.
Eternal and immutable: exists and applies as long as the universe exists, and cannot be changed.


The self ownership principle, makes it our right, the individual right to damage one self if one so choose.
Meaning, using drugs, alcohol and other substances are all a natural right.

Government removes that right, and if you dont obey you get thrown into a cage(prison).
Government also tax "property" and claim ownership of land like it see fits.
It also steals money from the individuals each month(usually.. called taxes..)

What is theft?

Taxation=Theft.

On December 03 2019 09:38 IgnE wrote:


I am following you up to the part about growing tomatoes. How does a homesteading society make capital intensive products like the computer or phone you are posting from though?

On December 03 2019 09:39 JimmiC wrote:


If your speaking of the wheat pool it is no longer government it became privatized, and most farmers here did not have a positive view of it.


Edit: i hadnt read your dairy comment, out west where I am the dairies also do very well but supply is very controlled and its about 5 bucks a gallon.

I know out east there was issues between wisconsin and ont farmers but that is way outside of my wheel house.

On December 03 2019 09:57 KwarK wrote:

I only looked into it within the context of trade negotiations but my understanding was that Canada places strategic value on domestic food production to the extent of forcing consumers to pay a premium for Canadian produce, a policy which the US used to share but abandoned in the 80s. That policy shift in the US has led to a race to the bottom in farming and the end of the small American farm as they get consumed by corporate farming which, amusingly enough, has enough money and influence to get back on the government teat (see trade war relief for big soybean) for the large producers only. It’s been a truly remarkable failure in public policy which, as I understand it, Canada has chosen not to emulate yet.

On December 03 2019 09:17 KwarK wrote:

Because being a farmer on the farm your great great grandfather bought and living in the house he built and being the one in a long line of farmers to lose the farm is tough, especially when your kids aren’t interested in farming for a loss and you’re working 18 hours a day to try to keep it going but the bills just keep mounting and the price of milk has dropped below the price of feed to get that milk but it’s not like you can just stop getting milk because the farm is mortgaged and you can’t scale production to the market that way so you just ask if the feed store will give you credit which is humiliating but you gotta do it but they won’t because everyone is asking for credit and they know as well as you do that things aren’t getting better and this isn’t just a bad year, it’s that the economics don’t make sense.

Farmers are killing themselves because within a capitalist economy that is the correct thing to do when the value of your labour goes negative. This is the market based solution. When enough of them kill themselves there will be less supply and we can reach the supply/suicide equilibrium as Adam Smith always wanted us to.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/27/586586267/as-milk-prices-decline-worries-about-dairy-farmer-suicides-rise

On December 03 2019 08:58 KwarK wrote:

You’ve got them mixed up. Socialism is the one where the worker owns his own labour and benefits from it. Capitalism is the one where some other guy gets the value created by the labour and the labourer gets a pittance based on market forces completely unrelated to how much value is created from his labour. For example a farm owner working hard and creating an exceptionally large harvest would reap the profits of owning the means of production, labour and ownership go hand in hand. That’s socialism. A farm labourer working hard and creating an extra big harvest may actually find his pay cut, despite the farm creating more wealth than ever, if additional farm labour becomes available and there is a glut in the labour market. That’s capitalism because the owner and the labourer are different people.

On December 03 2019 11:35 Sermokala wrote:
In a strange bit of reality what is leftwing today can and should be right wing in a matter of time.

On December 03 2019 11:42 Nebuchad wrote:


I see what you mean but this isn't really what we're talking about when it comes to Foxxan here. The people who convinced him that capitalism is where you keep your stuff and socialism is when others take it away didn't think that this idea is good and that they should take it from socialism and implement it into their ideology, they just took that leftwing idea of keeping the fruits of your labor and pretended that it was a rightwing idea, knowing full well that they were lying about capitalism. It's quite a different process.

On December 03 2019 09:17 KwarK wrote:

Because being a farmer on the farm your great great grandfather bought and living in the house he built and being the one in a long line of farmers to lose the farm is tough, especially when your kids aren’t interested in farming for a loss and you’re working 18 hours a day to try to keep it going but the bills just keep mounting and the price of milk has dropped below the price of feed to get that milk but it’s not like you can just stop getting milk because the farm is mortgaged and you can’t scale production to the market that way so you just ask if the feed store will give you credit which is humiliating but you gotta do it but they won’t because everyone is asking for credit and they know as well as you do that things aren’t getting better and this isn’t just a bad year, it’s that the economics don’t make sense.

Farmers are killing themselves because within a capitalist economy that is the correct thing to do when the value of your labour goes negative. This is the market based solution. When enough of them kill themselves there will be less supply and we can reach the supply/suicide equilibrium as Adam Smith always wanted us to.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/27/586586267/as-milk-prices-decline-worries-about-dairy-farmer-suicides-rise

Experts say farmers face a kind of "perfect storm" of financial pressure and a sense of powerlessness in an industry where prices are set by the government, combined with social isolation, and a self-reliant spirit that may make them loathe to seek help.

On December 03 2019 12:46 IgnE wrote:


John Locke talks about keeping the fruits of your labor and he was writing more than a hundred years before Fourier. But I guess being anti-monarchist is left.