|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
|
|
It's so hilarious to blame an ambassador to another country for the troubles that country is in.
|
Support for impeachment seems to have peaked back in October according to polling compiled by 538. falling to just ~4 out of 5 Democrats supporting impeachment (a ratio that makes a house vote fail if transposed).
|
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
On November 16 2019 15:13 reborn8u2 wrote:"It's amazing that such a corrupt whistleblowers allegations were judged reasonable by the Inspector General and have been subsequently supported and corroborated by every witness that has shown up" Not this one...... + Show Spoiler +
It's almost like a given witness can only corroborates components of a story they are relevant to. Shocking, that. There's a reason the core defense by Trump and the GOP has shifted to "the process" and "the whistleblower is corrupt"-it's because they can present no evidence contradicting the claims because they're all true.
|
It strikes me that this entire trial is like a divorced couple fighting their case for sole custody of the child (Trump). The mom (dems) are saying on how much of a monster dad is (gop) Then the dad calls the mom a dingbat bitch, that she smokes in front of his child, and was drunk driving when she picked him up from soccer practice and this case will go on in perpetuity. Even Jim Jordan was former wrestling coach! This entire thing is hilarious.
|
United States43966 Posts
On November 17 2019 02:42 redlightdistrict wrote:
It strikes me that this entire trial is like a divorced couple fighting their case for sole custody of the child (Trump). The mom (dems) are saying on how much of a monster dad is (gop) Then the dad calls the mom a dingbat bitch, that she smokes in front of his child, and was drunk driving when she picked him up from soccer practice and this case will go on in perpetuity. Even Jim Jordan was former wrestling coach! This entire thing is hilarious.
No. It’s like an impeachment inquiry into a corrupt President. You’re thinking of something else.
|
On November 17 2019 03:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 02:42 redlightdistrict wrote:
It strikes me that this entire trial is like a divorced couple fighting their case for sole custody of the child (Trump). The mom (dems) are saying on how much of a monster dad is (gop) Then the dad calls the mom a dingbat bitch, that she smokes in front of his child, and was drunk driving when she picked him up from soccer practice and this case will go on in perpetuity. Even Jim Jordan was former wrestling coach! This entire thing is hilarious. No. It’s like an impeachment inquiry into a corrupt President. You’re thinking of something else.
An impeachment inquiry into a corrupt President supported by a party that cares more about control and power then the law.
|
Someone should start an anti-corruption party of citizen-politicians
|
Did any candidate run on removing/reducing some executive powers from the presidency?
|
On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do.
I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020.
Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste.
|
On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste.
It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters.
|
On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters.
The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents.
Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous.
As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one).
|
United States43966 Posts
On November 17 2019 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters. The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents. Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous. As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one).
You’re doing bad math here. Republicans may not have half the population but they don’t need that to have half the Senate. The inability to pass impeachment through the a Senate has nothing to do with popular opinion and everything to do with gerrymandering.
|
On November 18 2019 00:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters. The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents. Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous. As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one). You’re doing bad math here. Republicans may not have half the population but they don’t need that to have half the Senate. The inability to pass impeachment through the a Senate has nothing to do with popular opinion and everything to do with gerrymandering.
You realize the Senate is a statewide election right? You can't gerrymander a Senate election. The issue is that the Democrat party is very regionalized and urban and its ethos and diaspora has an arrogant attitude towards a great deal (indeed, probably a majority) of the states in the country. Until they get out of their bubble it's going to be hard for them to grab decent majorities in the Senate for any sustained period of time.
|
United States43966 Posts
On November 18 2019 01:07 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2019 00:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2019 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters. The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents. Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous. As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one). You’re doing bad math here. Republicans may not have half the population but they don’t need that to have half the Senate. The inability to pass impeachment through the a Senate has nothing to do with popular opinion and everything to do with gerrymandering. You realize the Senate is a statewide election right? You can't gerrymander a Senate election. The issue is that the Democrat party is very regionalized and urban and its ethos and diaspora has an arrogant attitude towards a great deal (indeed, probably a majority) of the states in the country. Until they get out of their bubble it's going to be hard for them to grab decent majorities in the Senate for any sustained period of time.
You absolutely can gerrymander the Senate by making a bunch of small rural states vs large populous urban states. The senate is completely unrepresentative of the population. California should be a dozen states with about 20 Democratic senators and 4 Republicans.
|
On November 18 2019 00:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters. The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents. Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous. As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one). You’re doing bad math here. Republicans may not have half the population but they don’t need that to have half the Senate. The inability to pass impeachment through the a Senate has nothing to do with popular opinion and everything to do with gerrymandering.
I'm not even talking about the Senate. I'm talking about getting past the House. If Impeachment can't get to 50%+ (It seems to have peaked last month) then some Democrats will have to vote against their constituents majority/plurality preference just to get it out of the House. It's most likely to be the 30+ seats that dems won in districts Trump won which is more than enough to stop impeachment in the House.
|
United States43966 Posts
On November 18 2019 01:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2019 00:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2019 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters. The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents. Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous. As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one). You’re doing bad math here. Republicans may not have half the population but they don’t need that to have half the Senate. The inability to pass impeachment through the a Senate has nothing to do with popular opinion and everything to do with gerrymandering. I'm not even talking about the Senate. I'm talking about getting past the House. If Impeachment can't get to 50%+ (It seems to have peaked last month) then some Democrats will have to vote against their constituents majority/plurality preference just to get it out of the House. It's most likely to be the 30+ seats that dems won in districts Trump won which is more than enough to stop impeachment in the House.
Is it not relevant to you that Trump is guilty of the thing they’re impeaching him for?
|
On November 18 2019 01:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2019 01:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2019 00:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2019 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters. The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents. Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous. As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one). You’re doing bad math here. Republicans may not have half the population but they don’t need that to have half the Senate. The inability to pass impeachment through the a Senate has nothing to do with popular opinion and everything to do with gerrymandering. I'm not even talking about the Senate. I'm talking about getting past the House. If Impeachment can't get to 50%+ (It seems to have peaked last month) then some Democrats will have to vote against their constituents majority/plurality preference just to get it out of the House. It's most likely to be the 30+ seats that dems won in districts Trump won which is more than enough to stop impeachment in the House. Is it not relevant to you that Trump is guilty of the thing they’re impeaching him for?
Of course it is, I'm not a Republican. It's more relevant to me personally that he hasn't been impeached (edit: there's no requirement he be impeached for a crime btw, "violating the public trust" is enough constitutionally) for a whole host of other stuff preceding this, but that's for another time I imagine.
|
United States43966 Posts
On November 18 2019 01:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2019 01:34 KwarK wrote:On November 18 2019 01:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2019 00:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2019 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters. The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents. Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous. As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one). You’re doing bad math here. Republicans may not have half the population but they don’t need that to have half the Senate. The inability to pass impeachment through the a Senate has nothing to do with popular opinion and everything to do with gerrymandering. I'm not even talking about the Senate. I'm talking about getting past the House. If Impeachment can't get to 50%+ (It seems to have peaked last month) then some Democrats will have to vote against their constituents majority/plurality preference just to get it out of the House. It's most likely to be the 30+ seats that dems won in districts Trump won which is more than enough to stop impeachment in the House. Is it not relevant to you that Trump is guilty of the thing they’re impeaching him for? Of course it is, I'm not a Republican. It's more relevant to me personally that he hasn't been impeached for a whole host of other stuff preceding this, but that's for another time I imagine.
I just don’t get why you’re so upset about the impeachment proceedings. Trump did the thing. It merits impeachment. They’re trying to impeach him for it. Exactly which part of this do you have the problem with?
|
On November 18 2019 01:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2019 01:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2019 01:34 KwarK wrote:On November 18 2019 01:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2019 00:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2019 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 19:06 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2019 00:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think House Dems locked things in when they voted for the formal impeachment process. The nuance of "well I just voted for the process then against the articles" is not a concept that will be easily communicated to voters, and the actual justification for the flip flop is going to be difficult given that the substance of the facts were well known and now blanks are being publicly filled in.
You have more confidence in Democrats than I do. I think Pelosi didn't want to go down this road because she knows how cynical they are. Whether it's in the House or the Senate the bipartisan vote will be on the side of not impeaching. There's easily 30+ House Dems that would rather be on the side of the winning vote than be seen as being part of a failed partisan (they won't get any R votes) impeachment attempt and lose their seat in 2020. Trump won ~31 districts that Dems have seats in now, he needs ~18 House Manchins for this to die in the House and embarrass Pelosi/Dems. He got 2 already (so the bipartisan position is in opposition to impeachment in the house already) saying even going through the motions of the investigation was a waste. It is unclear if the Dems will win on this in the end, but with the evidence at hand, I don't think they had another choice. It won't pass the Senate, but revealing GOP and Trump corruption for the world should fire up their own supporters. The problem I'm highlighting is that it doesn't, as well as not firing up independents. Republicans+leaning isn't 50%, yet impeachment can't even clear 50% (needs at least 50% or people would have to vote against their constituents preference, but seems to be falling again). As someone who went through dozens of "oh the Democrats can't possibly do THAT's"over the past few years I can promise not only that they can, but their supporters will defend them for it as their only/best option no matter how ridiculous. As I said from the start the cop out they are going to go with (on both sides of the aisle) is that we can't impeach a president in an election year on a partisan vote (against a bipartisan one). You’re doing bad math here. Republicans may not have half the population but they don’t need that to have half the Senate. The inability to pass impeachment through the a Senate has nothing to do with popular opinion and everything to do with gerrymandering. I'm not even talking about the Senate. I'm talking about getting past the House. If Impeachment can't get to 50%+ (It seems to have peaked last month) then some Democrats will have to vote against their constituents majority/plurality preference just to get it out of the House. It's most likely to be the 30+ seats that dems won in districts Trump won which is more than enough to stop impeachment in the House. Is it not relevant to you that Trump is guilty of the thing they’re impeaching him for? Of course it is, I'm not a Republican. It's more relevant to me personally that he hasn't been impeached for a whole host of other stuff preceding this, but that's for another time I imagine. I just don’t get why you’re so upset about the impeachment proceedings. Trump did the thing. It merits impeachment. They’re trying to impeach him for it. Exactly which part of this do you have the problem with?
It's theater that distracts from real progress. They could have voted to impeach him 100 times already and this isn't even the strongest argument for it imo.
He's kidnapping kids, caging them, letting them sit in their own filth and some are dying. He lies so much even the publications that made a gag out of tracking them have almost totally given up. The guy is a walking impeachable offense.
So not only are they impotent this isn't even good for them politically under the most graciously cynical analysis. The only way this isn't a terrible strategy being done poorly is if the point is to fail to get the votes so Pelosi can pull it and blame it being an election year (so they don't have to go on the record beyond their existing "vote for impeachment" the media talked up before the time killing public "investigation").
EDIT: "I think it's best to let the American people decide" is already coming from Republicans and Democrats aren't going to be far behind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
37187
5280
2395
EPT
