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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Northern Ireland26318 Posts
On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments.
Is that being argued?
I find Trump such a disagreeable human being and so obviously foisted with a million character flaws and obviously corrupt actions that I can’t even hear him speak without wanting to punch something, I don’t think desiring others to get their own houses in orders detracts from that.
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United States43643 Posts
On November 16 2019 09:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments. Is that being argued? I find Trump such a disagreeable human being and so obviously foisted with a million character flaws and obviously corrupt actions that I can’t even hear him speak without wanting to punch something, I don’t think desiring others to get their own houses in orders detracts from that.
Yes, it is being argued. The argument was between people saying that Trump’s corruption is the subject of the investigation and that Biden’s corruption, if it exists, has no bearing on Trump’s established corruption and GH insisting that it is relevant because they’re all like totally corrupt man and like nothing really matters because they’re all like the same man.
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On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments.
It's also straight from the "both sides" book of arguments. It's been debunked repeatedly. One side is not as bad as the other, and no amount of conspiracy theories or hyperbole's will make it so. For anyone who think it does, you should try changing your mindset to evidence based thinking, instead of what you believe to be happening. You'll quickly find your claims to be unsupported.
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Northern Ireland26318 Posts
On November 16 2019 09:50 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments. It's also straight from the "both sides" book of arguments. It's been debunked repeatedly. One side is not as bad as the other, and no amount of conspiracy theories or hyperbole's will make it so.
Well no, one side is clearly worse, both sides are still bad.
I don’t think GH is arguing that the Biden thing is directly equivalent to Trump’s behaviour.
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On November 16 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 09:50 Excludos wrote:On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments. It's also straight from the "both sides" book of arguments. It's been debunked repeatedly. One side is not as bad as the other, and no amount of conspiracy theories or hyperbole's will make it so. Well no, one side is clearly worse, both sides are still bad. I don’t think GH is arguing that the Biden thing is directly equivalent to Trump’s behaviour.
He's arguing that nothing should be done because "everyone's bad". It might not be equivalent bad, but it's still the same outcome. It's no better than saying it's pointless to stop eating spoonfuls of pure sugar, because there's sugar in orange juice too, so it's all bad anyways.
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Northern Ireland26318 Posts
On November 16 2019 09:53 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 09:17 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 09:12 JimmiC wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Wouldn't that be a little like not going after Capone for tax evasion? Sure he did a lot worse, and there were a lot of people doing a lot worse, but this is what they could catch him on because this was the crime they can prove. It does not mean that there are not other problems, or that this is worst thing. And I don't think anyone on this thread has stated that. I mean it is not like there is not shit tons of corruption in China, Russia, Venezuala, Brazil, the UK, and so on. And going after Trump and saying Trump is guilty does not make all the others innocent. It is just that this is thing that he did that is provable and impeachable. I don’t really care just don’t be pious about it. All Trump does that’s particularly atypical is be incompetent and brazen about his brand of corruption, there’s plenty of it elsewhere. Plenty of the electorate instinctually found Hillary Clinton to be unpalatable for entirely ‘legitimate’ corruption. Tax avoidance via entirely legal means and similar mechanisms are legally entirely fine but morally repugnant to many people. Either people can get some balls and actually tackle these things in a bipartisan way, or they can not and indulge in throwing stones at glass houses as far as I’m concerned. I don't believe I have been pious, nor have most of the posters that have openly hoped Trump gets impeached. In fact I've read most say that if hunter broke the law he should also be in trouble. There also to my knowledge is none or very few Biden fans as most seem to be hoping for Bernie or Warren. I also think most people in the thread agree that tax avoidance via entirely legal means is repugnant and would like those loop holes closed. What is confusing and frustrating is to have someone act like because they are hoping Trump finally gets caught for something they don't believe the above. There is nothing about the above that disagrees with last statement. That would be like if someone said murder is worse than stealing, they don't think stealing is bad.
Apologies if I gave the impression I was calling you pious, absolutely not what I was leaning to convey at all.
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On November 16 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 09:50 Excludos wrote:On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments. It's also straight from the "both sides" book of arguments. It's been debunked repeatedly. One side is not as bad as the other, and no amount of conspiracy theories or hyperbole's will make it so. Well no, one side is clearly worse, both sides are still bad. I don’t think GH is arguing that the Biden thing is directly equivalent to Trump’s behaviour.
Right again. Not sure how I could do a better job communicating my points so that more people are able to extract the same things you are, but I appreciate you giving communicating it a try.
EDIT: I'd think it obvious at this point that I believe Trump should have been removed from office long ago (but sure this too) and am speaking to the deeper reasons than "cuz the Republicans" that it's taken this long to get this close, why it will fail, and how the cynical political calculations they are making around it are transparent and counterproductive.
I am explicitly saying that I don't advocate doing nothing because everyone is bad or anything to that effect.
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On November 16 2019 01:28 Sadist wrote:
The biden things is so dumb. Theres no allegation of anything specific. Its obviously a talking point only to muddy things up for the election.
It clearly follows the golden rule of republicans:
Accuse others of things you yourself are guilty of (voter fraud, immoral behavior, corruption, etc)
It it the P of GOP. Gaslight, Obstruct, Project.
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I find it quite ironic that Yovanovitch called Putin's remark that Ukrainians were meddling with the 2016 US elections an "alternative narrative". This is because she convenient didn't bother to even file a complaint about the Ukrainian ambassadors and parliamentary members publicly denouncing Trump and supporting Clinton during that time, despite claiming that ambassadors should remain neutral in order to not meddle in other countries elections.
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Northern Ireland26318 Posts
On November 16 2019 10:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 09:50 Excludos wrote:On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments. It's also straight from the "both sides" book of arguments. It's been debunked repeatedly. One side is not as bad as the other, and no amount of conspiracy theories or hyperbole's will make it so. Well no, one side is clearly worse, both sides are still bad. I don’t think GH is arguing that the Biden thing is directly equivalent to Trump’s behaviour. Right again. Not sure how I could do a better job communicating my points so that more people are able to extract the same things you are, but I appreciate you giving communicating it a try. EDIT: I'd think it obvious at this point that I believe Trump should have been removed from office long ago (but sure this too) and am speaking to the deeper reasons than "cuz the Republicans" that it's taken this long to get this close, why it will fail, and how the cynical political calculations they are making around it are transparent and counterproductive. I am explicitly saying that I don't advocate doing nothing because everyone is bad or anything to that effect.
It’s at least a considerable part of why Clinton failed to get election after all. The perception that she was absolutely awash with what I’d call ‘legitimate corruption’
People are consistently confused as to why Trump doesn’t get more flak for his obvious corruption. Really a lot of people don’t really draw a line between brazen, incompetent corruption and that which is business as usual and enabled by the system.
I’m not really sure why your point on this (at least my interpretation here) is so misconstrued in this thread.
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On November 16 2019 11:59 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 10:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 09:50 Excludos wrote:On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments. It's also straight from the "both sides" book of arguments. It's been debunked repeatedly. One side is not as bad as the other, and no amount of conspiracy theories or hyperbole's will make it so. Well no, one side is clearly worse, both sides are still bad. I don’t think GH is arguing that the Biden thing is directly equivalent to Trump’s behaviour. Right again. Not sure how I could do a better job communicating my points so that more people are able to extract the same things you are, but I appreciate you giving communicating it a try. EDIT: I'd think it obvious at this point that I believe Trump should have been removed from office long ago (but sure this too) and am speaking to the deeper reasons than "cuz the Republicans" that it's taken this long to get this close, why it will fail, and how the cynical political calculations they are making around it are transparent and counterproductive. I am explicitly saying that I don't advocate doing nothing because everyone is bad or anything to that effect. It’s at least a considerable part of why Clinton failed to get election after all. The perception that she was absolutely awash with what I’d call ‘legitimate corruption’ People are consistently confused as to why Trump doesn’t get more flak for his obvious corruption. Really a lot of people don’t really draw a line between brazen, incompetent corruption and that which is business as usual and enabled by the system. I’m not really sure why your point on this (at least my interpretation here) is so misconstrued in this thread.
It should be really obvious why his points get (supposedly) misconstrued so often.
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Northern Ireland26318 Posts
On November 16 2019 12:16 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 11:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 10:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 09:50 Excludos wrote:On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments. It's also straight from the "both sides" book of arguments. It's been debunked repeatedly. One side is not as bad as the other, and no amount of conspiracy theories or hyperbole's will make it so. Well no, one side is clearly worse, both sides are still bad. I don’t think GH is arguing that the Biden thing is directly equivalent to Trump’s behaviour. Right again. Not sure how I could do a better job communicating my points so that more people are able to extract the same things you are, but I appreciate you giving communicating it a try. EDIT: I'd think it obvious at this point that I believe Trump should have been removed from office long ago (but sure this too) and am speaking to the deeper reasons than "cuz the Republicans" that it's taken this long to get this close, why it will fail, and how the cynical political calculations they are making around it are transparent and counterproductive. I am explicitly saying that I don't advocate doing nothing because everyone is bad or anything to that effect. It’s at least a considerable part of why Clinton failed to get election after all. The perception that she was absolutely awash with what I’d call ‘legitimate corruption’ People are consistently confused as to why Trump doesn’t get more flak for his obvious corruption. Really a lot of people don’t really draw a line between brazen, incompetent corruption and that which is business as usual and enabled by the system. I’m not really sure why your point on this (at least my interpretation here) is so misconstrued in this thread. It should be really obvious why his points get (supposedly) misconstrued so often.
Is it? I think his overarching points are usually pretty clear but maybe that’s just me.
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I've read a few things about the whistleblower that certainly makes me question his integrity, motives, and the accusations as a whole.
This article claims the whistleblower met with Schiff's staff and failed to disclose it when required by law. (a felony).
+ Show Spoiler +
This video from the hearings raises more questions. A memo sent to republicans, that Schiff will block questions that reveal the identity of the whistleblower, who's identity Schiff claims not to know.
+ Show Spoiler +
This article claims the whistleblower worked in Obama's whitehouse and the visitor logs show that he personally met with Ukraine's lead anti-corruption prosecutor
+ Show Spoiler +
This article claims they literally had to change the rules to allow this complaint, because the rules formerly required first hand knowledge.
+ Show Spoiler +
This article claims the whistleblower illegally solicited money.
+ Show Spoiler +
Here is an old article where the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine (who just testified at the impeachment hearings) Calls for the firing of the Ukraine anti-corruption prosecutor who is investigating the company Biden's son was involved in. + Show Spoiler +
Here is Biden bragging about using a billion in foreign aid as leverage to get a Ukraine investigator fired.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 16 2019 12:18 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 12:16 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 16 2019 11:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 10:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 09:50 Excludos wrote:On November 16 2019 09:34 KwarK wrote:On November 16 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m kind of with what (I take) to be GH’s angle on this, there’s a staggering amount of ‘legitimate’ corruption flowing around that to be pious about Trump for merely indulging in incompetent ‘stadium rock’ corruption rings hollow for a lot of folks. Hypocrisy does not excuse corruption. Trump is corrupt. Arguing that the hypocrisy of the Democrats excuses the corruption of Trump is nonsensical. It’s straight from the “we can’t fix everything so let’s fix nothing” school of bad arguments. It's also straight from the "both sides" book of arguments. It's been debunked repeatedly. One side is not as bad as the other, and no amount of conspiracy theories or hyperbole's will make it so. Well no, one side is clearly worse, both sides are still bad. I don’t think GH is arguing that the Biden thing is directly equivalent to Trump’s behaviour. Right again. Not sure how I could do a better job communicating my points so that more people are able to extract the same things you are, but I appreciate you giving communicating it a try. EDIT: I'd think it obvious at this point that I believe Trump should have been removed from office long ago (but sure this too) and am speaking to the deeper reasons than "cuz the Republicans" that it's taken this long to get this close, why it will fail, and how the cynical political calculations they are making around it are transparent and counterproductive. I am explicitly saying that I don't advocate doing nothing because everyone is bad or anything to that effect. It’s at least a considerable part of why Clinton failed to get election after all. The perception that she was absolutely awash with what I’d call ‘legitimate corruption’ People are consistently confused as to why Trump doesn’t get more flak for his obvious corruption. Really a lot of people don’t really draw a line between brazen, incompetent corruption and that which is business as usual and enabled by the system. I’m not really sure why your point on this (at least my interpretation here) is so misconstrued in this thread. It should be really obvious why his points get (supposedly) misconstrued so often. Is it? I think his overarching points are usually pretty clear but maybe that’s just me.
imo it comes out of liberals/Democrats rather blind reliance on process, procedure, and legislation to land on righteousness. The truth is that the law of the US has always been, and still is, a tool to oppress, not an instrument of justice.
Democrats let any ability our systems had to hold powerful people accountable rot and atrophy making them toothless against their interests and are shocked to discover their impotence against such a brazen aggravator.
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On November 16 2019 14:06 reborn8u2 wrote:I've read a few things about the whistleblower that certainly makes me question his integrity, motives, and the accusations as a whole. This article claims the whistleblower met with Schiff's staff and failed to disclose it when required by law. (a felony). + Show Spoiler +This video from the hearings raises more questions. A memo sent to republicans, that Schiff will block questions that reveal the identity of the whistleblower, who's identity Schiff claims not to know. + Show Spoiler +This article claims the whistleblower worked in Obama's whitehouse and the visitor logs show that he personally met with Ukraine's lead anti-corruption prosecutor + Show Spoiler +This article claims they literally had to change the rules to allow this complaint, because the rules formerly required first hand knowledge. + Show Spoiler +This article claims the whistleblower illegally solicited money. + Show Spoiler +Here is an old article where the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine (who just testified at the impeachment hearings) Calls for the firing of the Ukraine anti-corruption prosecutor who is investigating the company Biden's son was involved in. + Show Spoiler +Here is Biden bragging about using a billion in foreign aid as leverage to get a Ukraine investigator fired. + Show Spoiler +
It's amazing that such a corrupt whistleblowers allegations were judged reasonable by the Inspector General and have been subsequently supported and corroborated by every witness that has shown up and hasn't defied their subpoenas alongside documented message logs. Thank goodness the character of the whistleblower has literally no bearing whatsoever on whether Trump committed an impeachable offense.
Tip: when your news sources have embedded "polls" on whether Adam Schiff should be expelled from Congress, look for better sources. You also might be interested in learning that the Inspector General has debunked the conspiracy theory that the form was changed.
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"It's amazing that such a corrupt whistleblowers allegations were judged reasonable by the Inspector General and have been subsequently supported and corroborated by every witness that has shown up"
Not this one......
+ Show Spoiler +
User was warned for this post
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Well no they didn't address what the whistleblower said. Trump also couldn't wait to attack her on Twitter until after she was speaking which is clear witness intimidation and an impeachment filing now in its own right.
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On November 16 2019 22:10 Sermokala wrote:
Well no they didn't address what the whistleblower said. Trump also couldn't wait to attack her on Twitter until after she was speaking which is clear witness intimidation and an impeachment filing now in its own right. He already did it during the Mueller report hearings so its hardly a new development but yes, its another in a line of instances that constitute witness intimidation.
Without Presidential immunity this tweet about someone currently giving testimony will get you arrested.
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EPT
