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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 18 2019 22:30 Destructicon wrote:This is a copy paste from the no go zone wiki in spoilers to not become a wall of text: + Show Spoiler +Some urban areas in Sweden have been called no-go zones. The Swedish government states that "no-go zones", where "criminality and gangs have taken over and where the emergency services do not dare to go" do not exist. They acknowledge that there are areas "increasingly marred by crime, social unrest and insecurity".[69][70][71]
A 2016 report from the Swedish Police mapped 53 "exposed" areas (Utsatta områden) and 15 "particularly exposed" areas. An "exposed area" was defined as an area with low socioeconomic status and high crime. A "particularly exposed" area was defined as an area nearby to an "exposed area" the inhabitants of which demonstrated the following qualities:
Unwillingness to participate in legal proceedings
Hindrance of Swedish police operations
Parallel social structure
Violent extremism
Swedish police protocol differs for working in these areas. For example, the police bring certain equipment and work in pairs when in a "particularly exposed area".[72]
In a 2017 interview with the conservative opinion magazine Weekly Standard's Paulina Neuding [sv], Gordon Grattidge, the head of the Swedish ambulance drivers' union, stated that there were some areas too dangerous for rescue workers to enter without police protection, using the English term "no-go zones" to describe them.[73][74][75]
In March 2015, journalist Henrik Höjer discussed the rise of criminality, especially organized crime, in various neighborhoods within Sweden since the mid-1990s, especially in the city of Malmö. He interviewed a police officer and task force chief who referred to such areas as "no go areas" and wrote that gangs like to lay claim to an area by throwing stones at mailmen, police, firefighters and ambulances who enter the area.[76]
In February 2016, a news crew for Australia's 60 Minutes working with anti-immigration activist Jan Sjunnesson[77][78] reported having come under attack, including allegedly having stones thrown on them and a car running over the foot of a cameraman who was trying to prevent it from leaving in the immigrant-dominated district of Rinkeby of Stockholm.[79] 60 Minutes published the video, on which reporter Liz Hayes says "there are now 55 declared no-go zones in Sweden." I did bold one part though about ambulance workers being afraid to go into some of the problem areas without police protection. Now here is a copy from Tim's wiki. "However, Pool alleged that he had to be escorted by police out of Rinkeby, a Stockholm suburb, due to purported threats to his safety." So, the problem areas do exist. What I argued next was the magnitude to which they are a problem. The mainstream media is trying to make it seem like its not a huge deal however you keep seeing news to the contrary. If you think my sources are too right wing how about these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/world/641223/Swedish-police-being-ATTACKED-as-they-struggle-in-NO-GO-ZONES-as-migrant-crime-rocketshttps://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/world/europe/sweden-crime-immigration-hand-grenades.htmlhttps://europediplomatic.com/2019/03/01/business-refuses-operations-in-sweden-no-go-zones/https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/14/swedish-pm-asks-arsonists-what-the-heck-are-you-doing-setting-fire-to-carshttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44399293Politico, The Guardian are left leaning sites btw and the BBC is centrist and even they covered some news pieces about crime in the problem areas and attribute them to a large number of migrants. A few of them cite an increase in crime in the last few years and on the wiki page for the grenade attacks you can see that the number of grenade attacks increased in the last few years, the period of time when Europe took on more migrants. Where there is smoke there is fire. Simply labeling a point of view you disagree with as right wing, and trying to demonize right wingers for speaking up is not going to make the situation better, it just makes it worse. I'm not ashamed in any way shape or form of what I've said, I've done the research, looked for the stories and watched/listened to videos.
Well your first link only has a page in English. It is almost like we don't care about it in any of the scandinavian countries. Maybe because it is not an issue and only the focus of foreigners not living in the country? But ofc sure, the use of 120ish handgrenades each year is surely far more dangerous than all the guns being fired at people in US each year. I have never experienced a street shut down because of handgrenades/violence in Sweden, but I sure have experienced that several times in the US because of a shooting episode.
The other links? Well they are hyperbolic and unjust towards the reality for those living in e.g. malmö. Foreign media talking about stuff they don't really understand. We had the same problem with their reporting on Breivik when he killed all the kids and blew up his bomb.
The reason Tim Pools were escorted out was because he was a loud racist dick coming to their neighborhood to talk shit about them and where they live, to the whole world. I can think of several places in the world where being a loud racist dick would be dangerous.
I would advice you to come to one of Sweden's "no-go zones", I think you would be surprised of how they compares to your view of them.
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On July 18 2019 22:30 Destructicon wrote:This is a copy paste from the no go zone wiki in spoilers to not become a wall of text: + Show Spoiler +Some urban areas in Sweden have been called no-go zones. The Swedish government states that "no-go zones", where "criminality and gangs have taken over and where the emergency services do not dare to go" do not exist. They acknowledge that there are areas "increasingly marred by crime, social unrest and insecurity".[69][70][71]
A 2016 report from the Swedish Police mapped 53 "exposed" areas (Utsatta områden) and 15 "particularly exposed" areas. An "exposed area" was defined as an area with low socioeconomic status and high crime. A "particularly exposed" area was defined as an area nearby to an "exposed area" the inhabitants of which demonstrated the following qualities:
Unwillingness to participate in legal proceedings
Hindrance of Swedish police operations
Parallel social structure
Violent extremism
Swedish police protocol differs for working in these areas. For example, the police bring certain equipment and work in pairs when in a "particularly exposed area".[72]
In a 2017 interview with the conservative opinion magazine Weekly Standard's Paulina Neuding [sv], Gordon Grattidge, the head of the Swedish ambulance drivers' union, stated that there were some areas too dangerous for rescue workers to enter without police protection, using the English term "no-go zones" to describe them.[73][74][75]
In March 2015, journalist Henrik Höjer discussed the rise of criminality, especially organized crime, in various neighborhoods within Sweden since the mid-1990s, especially in the city of Malmö. He interviewed a police officer and task force chief who referred to such areas as "no go areas" and wrote that gangs like to lay claim to an area by throwing stones at mailmen, police, firefighters and ambulances who enter the area.[76]
In February 2016, a news crew for Australia's 60 Minutes working with anti-immigration activist Jan Sjunnesson[77][78] reported having come under attack, including allegedly having stones thrown on them and a car running over the foot of a cameraman who was trying to prevent it from leaving in the immigrant-dominated district of Rinkeby of Stockholm.[79] 60 Minutes published the video, on which reporter Liz Hayes says "there are now 55 declared no-go zones in Sweden." I did bold one part though about ambulance workers being afraid to go into some of the problem areas without police protection. Now here is a copy from Tim's wiki. "However, Pool alleged that he had to be escorted by police out of Rinkeby, a Stockholm suburb, due to purported threats to his safety." So, the problem areas do exist. What I argued next was the magnitude to which they are a problem. The mainstream media is trying to make it seem like its not a huge deal however you keep seeing news to the contrary. If you think my sources are too right wing how about these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/world/641223/Swedish-police-being-ATTACKED-as-they-struggle-in-NO-GO-ZONES-as-migrant-crime-rocketshttps://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/world/europe/sweden-crime-immigration-hand-grenades.htmlhttps://europediplomatic.com/2019/03/01/business-refuses-operations-in-sweden-no-go-zones/https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/14/swedish-pm-asks-arsonists-what-the-heck-are-you-doing-setting-fire-to-carshttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44399293Politico, The Guardian are left leaning sites btw and the BBC is centrist and even they covered some news pieces about crime in the problem areas and attribute them to a large number of migrants. A few of them cite an increase in crime in the last few years and on the wiki page for the grenade attacks you can see that the number of grenade attacks increased in the last few years, the period of time when Europe took on more migrants. Where there is smoke there is fire. Simply labeling a point of view you disagree with as right wing, and trying to demonize right wingers for speaking up is not going to make the situation better, it just makes it worse. I'm not ashamed in any way shape or form of what I've said, I've done the research, looked for the stories and watched/listened to videos.
Judging from the responses, Europeans are still of the view that it's impolite to talk of such matters. The next stage is: We had better do something about it, if only to stave off right wing gains. The stage after that is likely to be: We all agree there's a problem, in fact we've always agreed there's a sizable problem, but there are no easy solutions.
These places have been incorrectly labelled 'no-go zones'. What is true, however, is that in several of these areas the police have experienced difficulties fulfilling their duties The Swedish Police Authority identifies a ‘vulnerable area’ as a geographically defined area, characterised by a low socioeconomic status, in which criminals exert influence on the local community. This influence is linked to the social context of the area rather than reflecting a calculated intention on the part of criminals to take power and control the local community.
The euphemisms the Swedish government have used are rather an admission of the truth than actual concealment. I expect more Orwellian language in the future that will satisfy neither that deniers nor the users of more coarse language.
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I find it funny how often we have this kind of discussion. They feel similar to the "swiss gun laws" discussions in the gun thread.
US right wing people live in a different world, are completely convinced that that world is the real world, and refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary. They then provide obviously shitty and biased sources, while ignoring the testimony and sources of the people actually living at the place that they claim stuff about.
Sweden is a hellhole with no go zones. Swiss gun laws are more liberal than american ones. Norway doesn't have relevant elements of socialism. All of that is bullshit.
If your source is RT, Breitbart, or some random youtube video, and you can not find any actually credible source for what you are claiming, and the people who are from the place you are talking about explain that you have no clue, consider that you might possibly be incorrect instead of thinking that everyone else are either delusional leftists or part of a conspiracy.
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On July 18 2019 22:30 Destructicon wrote:This is a copy paste from the no go zone wiki in spoilers to not become a wall of text: + Show Spoiler +Some urban areas in Sweden have been called no-go zones. The Swedish government states that "no-go zones", where "criminality and gangs have taken over and where the emergency services do not dare to go" do not exist. They acknowledge that there are areas "increasingly marred by crime, social unrest and insecurity".[69][70][71]
A 2016 report from the Swedish Police mapped 53 "exposed" areas (Utsatta områden) and 15 "particularly exposed" areas. An "exposed area" was defined as an area with low socioeconomic status and high crime. A "particularly exposed" area was defined as an area nearby to an "exposed area" the inhabitants of which demonstrated the following qualities:
Unwillingness to participate in legal proceedings
Hindrance of Swedish police operations
Parallel social structure
Violent extremism
Swedish police protocol differs for working in these areas. For example, the police bring certain equipment and work in pairs when in a "particularly exposed area".[72]
In a 2017 interview with the conservative opinion magazine Weekly Standard's Paulina Neuding [sv], Gordon Grattidge, the head of the Swedish ambulance drivers' union, stated that there were some areas too dangerous for rescue workers to enter without police protection, using the English term "no-go zones" to describe them.[73][74][75]
In March 2015, journalist Henrik Höjer discussed the rise of criminality, especially organized crime, in various neighborhoods within Sweden since the mid-1990s, especially in the city of Malmö. He interviewed a police officer and task force chief who referred to such areas as "no go areas" and wrote that gangs like to lay claim to an area by throwing stones at mailmen, police, firefighters and ambulances who enter the area.[76]
In February 2016, a news crew for Australia's 60 Minutes working with anti-immigration activist Jan Sjunnesson[77][78] reported having come under attack, including allegedly having stones thrown on them and a car running over the foot of a cameraman who was trying to prevent it from leaving in the immigrant-dominated district of Rinkeby of Stockholm.[79] 60 Minutes published the video, on which reporter Liz Hayes says "there are now 55 declared no-go zones in Sweden." I did bold one part though about ambulance workers being afraid to go into some of the problem areas without police protection. Now here is a copy from Tim's wiki. "However, Pool alleged that he had to be escorted by police out of Rinkeby, a Stockholm suburb, due to purported threats to his safety." So, the problem areas do exist. What I argued next was the magnitude to which they are a problem. The mainstream media is trying to make it seem like its not a huge deal however you keep seeing news to the contrary. If you think my sources are too right wing how about these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/world/641223/Swedish-police-being-ATTACKED-as-they-struggle-in-NO-GO-ZONES-as-migrant-crime-rocketshttps://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/world/europe/sweden-crime-immigration-hand-grenades.htmlhttps://europediplomatic.com/2019/03/01/business-refuses-operations-in-sweden-no-go-zones/https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/14/swedish-pm-asks-arsonists-what-the-heck-are-you-doing-setting-fire-to-carshttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44399293Politico, The Guardian are left leaning sites btw and the BBC is centrist and even they covered some news pieces about crime in the problem areas and attribute them to a large number of migrants. A few of them cite an increase in crime in the last few years and on the wiki page for the grenade attacks you can see that the number of grenade attacks increased in the last few years, the period of time when Europe took on more migrants. Where there is smoke there is fire. Simply labeling a point of view you disagree with as right wing, and trying to demonize right wingers for speaking up is not going to make the situation better, it just makes it worse. I'm not ashamed in any way shape or form of what I've said, I've done the research, looked for the stories and watched/listened to videos.
So it comes down to who you chose to believe, Tim Pool or the Swedish police. I have no idea why the officers would lie about something like that though.
And no-go zones refers to areas too dangerous for the public to enter, where the police is unable to enforce the law and such places simply doesn't exist in Sweden. That not to say there aren't problematic areas, but it's not remotely close to what's being tossed around on the internet. Ambulance crews don't need police escort generally to these areas, they do however if there has been a violent crime like a shooting or indeed a grenade attack. That goes for anywhere in Sweden but the shootings in recent years have been mostly confined to certain areas and certain gangs. That IS a problem, it still doesn't make it a no-go zone and it's still far from the crime rates of American cities.
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Destruction have you been to Sweden? I've been to Sweden multiple times, and the only "no go" zones are the areas that have gang/drug related problems. Which is even rarer than the actual "no go" zones you describe. Even local Swedish people think the "no-go" zones is ridiculous term because it doesn't exist.
Think about it, the only reason why "no go" terminology exist is because the far right, white supremacy group thinks refugee camps are "no go" zones... Why is that?...
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I remember Farage going on Fox News and telling them that Birmingham in the UK was a no-go zone and then he had to come back home and apologize because it was an obvious lie to appease teh US right wing.
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On July 18 2019 22:54 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 22:30 Destructicon wrote:This is a copy paste from the no go zone wiki in spoilers to not become a wall of text: + Show Spoiler +Some urban areas in Sweden have been called no-go zones. The Swedish government states that "no-go zones", where "criminality and gangs have taken over and where the emergency services do not dare to go" do not exist. They acknowledge that there are areas "increasingly marred by crime, social unrest and insecurity".[69][70][71]
A 2016 report from the Swedish Police mapped 53 "exposed" areas (Utsatta områden) and 15 "particularly exposed" areas. An "exposed area" was defined as an area with low socioeconomic status and high crime. A "particularly exposed" area was defined as an area nearby to an "exposed area" the inhabitants of which demonstrated the following qualities:
Unwillingness to participate in legal proceedings
Hindrance of Swedish police operations
Parallel social structure
Violent extremism
Swedish police protocol differs for working in these areas. For example, the police bring certain equipment and work in pairs when in a "particularly exposed area".[72]
In a 2017 interview with the conservative opinion magazine Weekly Standard's Paulina Neuding [sv], Gordon Grattidge, the head of the Swedish ambulance drivers' union, stated that there were some areas too dangerous for rescue workers to enter without police protection, using the English term "no-go zones" to describe them.[73][74][75]
In March 2015, journalist Henrik Höjer discussed the rise of criminality, especially organized crime, in various neighborhoods within Sweden since the mid-1990s, especially in the city of Malmö. He interviewed a police officer and task force chief who referred to such areas as "no go areas" and wrote that gangs like to lay claim to an area by throwing stones at mailmen, police, firefighters and ambulances who enter the area.[76]
In February 2016, a news crew for Australia's 60 Minutes working with anti-immigration activist Jan Sjunnesson[77][78] reported having come under attack, including allegedly having stones thrown on them and a car running over the foot of a cameraman who was trying to prevent it from leaving in the immigrant-dominated district of Rinkeby of Stockholm.[79] 60 Minutes published the video, on which reporter Liz Hayes says "there are now 55 declared no-go zones in Sweden." I did bold one part though about ambulance workers being afraid to go into some of the problem areas without police protection. Now here is a copy from Tim's wiki. "However, Pool alleged that he had to be escorted by police out of Rinkeby, a Stockholm suburb, due to purported threats to his safety." So, the problem areas do exist. What I argued next was the magnitude to which they are a problem. The mainstream media is trying to make it seem like its not a huge deal however you keep seeing news to the contrary. If you think my sources are too right wing how about these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/world/641223/Swedish-police-being-ATTACKED-as-they-struggle-in-NO-GO-ZONES-as-migrant-crime-rocketshttps://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/world/europe/sweden-crime-immigration-hand-grenades.htmlhttps://europediplomatic.com/2019/03/01/business-refuses-operations-in-sweden-no-go-zones/https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/14/swedish-pm-asks-arsonists-what-the-heck-are-you-doing-setting-fire-to-carshttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44399293Politico, The Guardian are left leaning sites btw and the BBC is centrist and even they covered some news pieces about crime in the problem areas and attribute them to a large number of migrants. A few of them cite an increase in crime in the last few years and on the wiki page for the grenade attacks you can see that the number of grenade attacks increased in the last few years, the period of time when Europe took on more migrants. Where there is smoke there is fire. Simply labeling a point of view you disagree with as right wing, and trying to demonize right wingers for speaking up is not going to make the situation better, it just makes it worse. I'm not ashamed in any way shape or form of what I've said, I've done the research, looked for the stories and watched/listened to videos. Well your first link only has a page in English. It is almost like we don't care about it in any of the scandinavian countries. Maybe because it is not an issue and only the focus of foreigners not living in the country? But ofc sure, the use of 120ish handgrenades each year is surely far more dangerous than all the guns being fired at people in US each year. I have never experienced a street shut down because of handgrenades/violence in Sweden, but I sure have experienced that several times in the US because of a shooting episode. The other links? Well they are hyperbolic and unjust towards the reality for those living in e.g. malmö. Foreign media talking about stuff they don't really understand. We had the same problem with their reporting on Breivik when he killed all the kids and blew up his bomb. The reason Tim Pools were escorted out was because he was a loud racist dick coming to their neighborhood to talk shit about them and where they live, to the whole world. I can think of several places in the world where being a loud racist dick would be dangerous. I would advice you to come to one of Sweden's "no-go zones", I think you would be surprised of how they compares to your view of them.
This is disingenuous because the US murder rate has been trending down or at the very least holding steady in a valley, whereas this grenade issue in Sweden has completely exploded out of nowhere if you compare to like 0 grenades what, 10 years ago? 120 hand grenades is a lot and also it's not only the grenades per se, it's the fact that they are gangs having grenade wars with each other and accompanying that is all the problems of a gang.
Also if you were inconvenienced often in the US about gun violence I'm also suspicious of the exact locales you were located because the US is a vast place, just like you may never have seen a grenade attack if you don't live in a Malmo grenade zone. So it's anecdotal either way.
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United States43203 Posts
On July 18 2019 22:30 Destructicon wrote:
I'm not ashamed in any way shape or form of what I've said, I've done the research, looked for the stories and watched/listened to videos.
Firstly, I want to thank you for your willingness to listen to new information that you displayed previously with labour relations within differing economic models and with the legality and continuing implementation of systematic discrimination within the US. I basically never assume good faith on the part of discussions here because I never find any but you’re showing more than anyone else has in a while.
Most people who sound like you take the anti vaxxer approach to research. They know their conclusions and therefore they concentrate their research in areas that agree with them. You pretty much never see a Brietbart link outside of someone who has fallen into that trap because Breitbart is to news what naturalhealth.org (or whatever) is to a medical journal.
Sweden is by every metric safer than America, and honestly America is pretty safe. A section of American society has an interest in creating an existential fear of impending racial annihilation. If they use close to home examples, like violence in the south or near the border they have the problem of explaining why it’s not actually that bad. My city is meant to be one of the worst, there are areas that everyone would recommend that you don’t stumble home through, drunk, late at night, carrying a lot of cash. But relatively unsafe is not the same as unsafe, it’s really not that bad. If Fox wanted to push documentaries about white erasure using my city as an example they’d run into the problem of people going “that’s no different from my city, they’re just talking about the poor part of the city, the people there are poorer but it’s basically fine”.
Enter Sweden. It’s the perfect setting for this existential drama. The people look like the inhabitants of Gondor, you can set it up as a bastion of whiteness under siege in a way you just can’t with America because in America the brown people are already here and it’s fine. It’s far enough away that Americans aren’t really sure where it is but it’s referenced in the Muppets so they’re pretty sure it’s a real place.
They then film places which are objectively better than the places that they were unable to build their narrative with in the US, selectively edit sources, put things out of context, and frame everything in terms of a racial threat, as if poor people didn’t exist before immigration.
This gets broadcast to morons like Trump who eat it up because it agrees with their worldview and the narrative is built. Trump starts tweeting about what happened in Sweden yesterday (nothing, the man is a liar) and suddenly I’m forced to explain to my racist in-laws that Europe has not literally been destroyed and that they live a few miles from a no-go area far worse than the one they’re imagining in Sweden. They insist that the one near them isn’t a real no-go area and it’s just like “that’s the fucking point”.
If you want a no-go area experience and you’re in my part of America sometime I’ll take you out on one and buy you a drink.
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United States43203 Posts
On July 18 2019 23:20 Jockmcplop wrote:
I remember Farage going on Fox News and telling them that Birmingham in the UK was a no-go zone and then he had to come back home and apologize because it was an obvious lie to appease teh US right wing.
I mean I wouldn’t go to Birmingham. Hell, they built a whole toll road to capitalize upon the people willing to pay to go around Birmingham. It’s not a race thing though, I’m just too middle class for the midlands.
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In reality the increase in hand grenade attacks is probably due to Putins continued war on Ukraine making heavy weapons more available on the european black market? I bet they get peddled by white power biker gangs too.
But never let a good opportunity to racist go by because where there is smoke, there is fire.
There is a lot of fire in eastern Ukraine btw
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Most if not all grenades that has been used has been from former Yugoslavia. The various Yugoslavian factions have been big in the organized crime scene since the 90s.
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On July 18 2019 23:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
In reality the increase in hand grenade attacks is probably due to Putins continued war on Ukraine making heavy weapons more available on the european black market? I bet they get peddled by white power biker gangs too.
But never let a good opportunity to racist go by because where there is smoke, there is fire.
There is a lot of fire in eastern Ukraine btw
Would you be willing to make a similar determination for the Paris attacks being due to the availability of automatic weapons on the black market because of eastern European geopolitics? Are market factors also responsible for knife crime in London? He flooded the black market with edged weapons? At some point there's a limit to how many problems the West has that can be scapegoated to Putin. How can supply be all that's going on? Who's throwing the grenades?
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On July 18 2019 23:51 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 23:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
In reality the increase in hand grenade attacks is probably due to Putins continued war on Ukraine making heavy weapons more available on the european black market? I bet they get peddled by white power biker gangs too.
But never let a good opportunity to racist go by because where there is smoke, there is fire.
There is a lot of fire in eastern Ukraine btw
Would you be willing to make a similar determination for the Paris attacks being due to the availability of automatic weapons on the black market because of eastern European geopolitics? Are market factors also responsible for knife crime in London? He flooded the black market with edged weapons? At some point there's a limit to how many problems the West has that can be scapegoated to Putin. How can supply be all that's going on? Who's throwing the grenades?
No? But why are we talking about islamic terrorist attacks now when we were talking about crime
It's more that when you see an increase in grenade attacks, your first thoughts should be 'where the fuck are all these grenades coming from' and not 'lets look at immigration stats'
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Again the grenades wouldn't have teleported themselves from Ukraine to the pocket of someone who woke up one day and thought "I really don't like that guy, it's grenade time." Who threw the grenade is obviously essential in knowing where the person that threw the grenade got the grenade, and going up the chain of supply.
Suppose they've come from the conflict in the Ukraine as you suggest. Surely we're not to suppose Swedish police should recommend to the foreign ministry to, say, intervene in the Ukraine in order to curb the supply and stop the grenade epidemic. What's the next step if we want to stop grenade attacks, and if your line of analysis isn't to be a dead end?
The force of my analogy was that automatic weapons, like grenades, are not legally available. This is in deference to your theory that apparently the illicit object itself is the root of what's going on. If I had explained this point with a different analogy, for example, if drunk driving deaths increased, asking whether you would recommend prohibition of alcohol, would have been a worse analogy because alcohol being legally available whereas grenades are illegal would give you an "out."
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On July 18 2019 23:51 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 23:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
In reality the increase in hand grenade attacks is probably due to Putins continued war on Ukraine making heavy weapons more available on the european black market? I bet they get peddled by white power biker gangs too.
But never let a good opportunity to racist go by because where there is smoke, there is fire.
There is a lot of fire in eastern Ukraine btw
Would you be willing to make a similar determination for the Paris attacks being due to the availability of automatic weapons on the black market because of eastern European geopolitics? Are market factors also responsible for knife crime in London? He flooded the black market with edged weapons? At some point there's a limit to how many problems the West has that can be scapegoated to Putin. How can supply be all that's going on? Who's throwing the grenades?
London stabbings have nothing to do with any of that, more likely they arise from the lack of opportunities and resources for young people in the city. Both support resources in the social care side and then law enforcement have had funding stalled and cut for years. Bunch of young people who see for example drug gangs as a way out and towards better life get involved in crime. Also fear factor adds in, you hear stabbings get more common -> start carrying a blade with you -> more people with blades -> more stabbings -> repeat until at present.
Anyways that doesn't have anything to do with US politics. To go back to the topic, how does it not ring everyone's alarm bells that Trump is making people chant go back to your country to American born citizens? If this is somehow not racism then I really need a reality check. What credibility can the republicans claim after Trump is done for, they stood complacent and even defended some of the most shameful behaviour by a supposedly western liberal leader. I could go on a rant about two party system and how it makes politics toxic but I think at this point there is absolutely no need, any observant person that follows either the current UK or US politics has hopefully made the same conclusions.
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On July 18 2019 15:29 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 13:46 IgnE wrote:On July 18 2019 13:20 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 18 2019 11:35 IgnE wrote:On July 18 2019 09:42 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 18 2019 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:I'm reminded of this article on why white (and/or white adjacent) people think there is "anti-whiteness" everywhere they look. “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Equality can feel like oppression. But it’s not. What you’re feeling is just the discomfort of losing a little bit of your privilege — the same discomfort that an only child feels when she goes to preschool and discovers that there are other kids who want to play with the same toys as she does. All this anger we see from people screaming “All Lives Matter” in response to black protesters at rallies. All this anger we see from people insisting that their “religious freedom” is being infringed because a gay couple wants to get married . All these people angry about immigrants, angry about Muslims, angry about “Happy Holidays,” angry about not being able to say bigoted things without being called a bigot…+ Show Spoiler +They all basically boil down to people who have grown accustomed to walking straight at other folks, and expecting them to move. So when “those people” in their path don’t move — when those people start wondering, “Why am I always moving out of this guy’s way?”; when those people start asking themselves, “What if I didn’t move? What if I just kept walking too?”; when those people start believing that they have every bit as much right to that aisle as anyone else — it can seem like their rights are being taken away. They even see anti-white racism, divisive, fight-starting in capitalization while seeing white supremacist propaganda as conciliatory lol. You nailed it dude... I 1,000,000% agree with this.I as that as a milk-toast, Scotts-Irish, white ass American man. About 8 years ago I was confronted with the reality of my privilege and I did not want to accept it, but eventually did, and it opened my fucking eyes. “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Equality requires the privileged to relinquish some of their power, most are unwilling to do that. When I was a little kid growing up on the east coast in the semi-south I used to think my black friends would lie about all the horrible shit that happened to them, I thought, "why do they make this stuff up?" Turns out I just never had to deal with it, so it was invisible to me... that is privilege. What power have you relinquished in order to work towards equality? I would say the first step, and probably the most important is simply acknowledging that I have privilege, and giving up my ignorance about my privilege. The nature of privilege is ignorance, the privileged people don't have to consider the problems other people do. So in regard to racial privilege, in acknowledging it I would think there comes some degree of commitment in calling it out when I see rather than just letting it slide because, "I'm white and it doesn't affect me." If I'm playing a game a CSGO and I hear the N word (happens all the time), rather than just be ok with that, I can at the very least confront them on it, and report the account. There are many different versions of that... for example is I see a nazi symbol written on a wall, I can get a pen and mark over it. Donate to a charity organization that combats racial inequality, march for black lives matter. I haven't done these latter two things, but for a lot of my black friends growing up I apologized for not believe them when we were kids, and tell them I believe them now. Small steps, but if all privileged people did that, the world would change. I thought there was more to privilege than that. You don't sound like someone who's given much of any thought to the subject. What's the point of your post? Are you actually curious about my experience or just want something to rail against? The post GH made that I quoted, you sound exactly like the type of person that post describes. Equality feels like oppression for you, that true for you or you just never even gave it a thought?
No, I'm actually just surprised at how little privilege you actually had to relinquish. It's almost like you didn't have much power in the first place. You really stretched there, too, with the suggestion to donate to BLM. Giving away money counts as giving away power I guess. But maybe the metaphorical language doesn't really work? Why do you think this idea that giving up privilege feels like oppression resonates with you so much when your examples of giving up privilege are so lame?
I can think of something else that might better describe the experience of 1) conversion to a cause, 2) spreading the good news to blasphemers, and 3) tithing — but "relinquishing power" isn't it.
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On July 18 2019 23:26 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 22:54 Neneu wrote:On July 18 2019 22:30 Destructicon wrote:This is a copy paste from the no go zone wiki in spoilers to not become a wall of text: + Show Spoiler +Some urban areas in Sweden have been called no-go zones. The Swedish government states that "no-go zones", where "criminality and gangs have taken over and where the emergency services do not dare to go" do not exist. They acknowledge that there are areas "increasingly marred by crime, social unrest and insecurity".[69][70][71]
A 2016 report from the Swedish Police mapped 53 "exposed" areas (Utsatta områden) and 15 "particularly exposed" areas. An "exposed area" was defined as an area with low socioeconomic status and high crime. A "particularly exposed" area was defined as an area nearby to an "exposed area" the inhabitants of which demonstrated the following qualities:
Unwillingness to participate in legal proceedings
Hindrance of Swedish police operations
Parallel social structure
Violent extremism
Swedish police protocol differs for working in these areas. For example, the police bring certain equipment and work in pairs when in a "particularly exposed area".[72]
In a 2017 interview with the conservative opinion magazine Weekly Standard's Paulina Neuding [sv], Gordon Grattidge, the head of the Swedish ambulance drivers' union, stated that there were some areas too dangerous for rescue workers to enter without police protection, using the English term "no-go zones" to describe them.[73][74][75]
In March 2015, journalist Henrik Höjer discussed the rise of criminality, especially organized crime, in various neighborhoods within Sweden since the mid-1990s, especially in the city of Malmö. He interviewed a police officer and task force chief who referred to such areas as "no go areas" and wrote that gangs like to lay claim to an area by throwing stones at mailmen, police, firefighters and ambulances who enter the area.[76]
In February 2016, a news crew for Australia's 60 Minutes working with anti-immigration activist Jan Sjunnesson[77][78] reported having come under attack, including allegedly having stones thrown on them and a car running over the foot of a cameraman who was trying to prevent it from leaving in the immigrant-dominated district of Rinkeby of Stockholm.[79] 60 Minutes published the video, on which reporter Liz Hayes says "there are now 55 declared no-go zones in Sweden." I did bold one part though about ambulance workers being afraid to go into some of the problem areas without police protection. Now here is a copy from Tim's wiki. "However, Pool alleged that he had to be escorted by police out of Rinkeby, a Stockholm suburb, due to purported threats to his safety." So, the problem areas do exist. What I argued next was the magnitude to which they are a problem. The mainstream media is trying to make it seem like its not a huge deal however you keep seeing news to the contrary. If you think my sources are too right wing how about these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swedenhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/world/641223/Swedish-police-being-ATTACKED-as-they-struggle-in-NO-GO-ZONES-as-migrant-crime-rocketshttps://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/world/europe/sweden-crime-immigration-hand-grenades.htmlhttps://europediplomatic.com/2019/03/01/business-refuses-operations-in-sweden-no-go-zones/https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/14/swedish-pm-asks-arsonists-what-the-heck-are-you-doing-setting-fire-to-carshttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44399293Politico, The Guardian are left leaning sites btw and the BBC is centrist and even they covered some news pieces about crime in the problem areas and attribute them to a large number of migrants. A few of them cite an increase in crime in the last few years and on the wiki page for the grenade attacks you can see that the number of grenade attacks increased in the last few years, the period of time when Europe took on more migrants. Where there is smoke there is fire. Simply labeling a point of view you disagree with as right wing, and trying to demonize right wingers for speaking up is not going to make the situation better, it just makes it worse. I'm not ashamed in any way shape or form of what I've said, I've done the research, looked for the stories and watched/listened to videos. Well your first link only has a page in English. It is almost like we don't care about it in any of the scandinavian countries. Maybe because it is not an issue and only the focus of foreigners not living in the country? But ofc sure, the use of 120ish handgrenades each year is surely far more dangerous than all the guns being fired at people in US each year. I have never experienced a street shut down because of handgrenades/violence in Sweden, but I sure have experienced that several times in the US because of a shooting episode. The other links? Well they are hyperbolic and unjust towards the reality for those living in e.g. malmö. Foreign media talking about stuff they don't really understand. We had the same problem with their reporting on Breivik when he killed all the kids and blew up his bomb. The reason Tim Pools were escorted out was because he was a loud racist dick coming to their neighborhood to talk shit about them and where they live, to the whole world. I can think of several places in the world where being a loud racist dick would be dangerous. I would advice you to come to one of Sweden's "no-go zones", I think you would be surprised of how they compares to your view of them. This is disingenuous because the US murder rate has been trending down or at the very least holding steady in a valley, whereas this grenade issue in Sweden has completely exploded out of nowhere if you compare to like 0 grenades what, 10 years ago? 120 hand grenades is a lot and also it's not only the grenades per se, it's the fact that they are gangs having grenade wars with each other and accompanying that is all the problems of a gang. Also if you were inconvenienced often in the US about gun violence I'm also suspicious of the exact locales you were located because the US is a vast place, just like you may never have seen a grenade attack if you don't live in a Malmo grenade zone. So it's anecdotal either way.
That would be like comparing the increase of flow in your tap water to the slow decrease of flow from a water dam used as a powerplant. I would still prefer getting wet from the tap water rather than being blasted by the water from the powerplant.
Sure if you consider Pacific Beach in San Diego and one block south of the A&T baseball park in San Fransisco to be one of the more dangerous parts of US.
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On July 18 2019 23:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
In reality the increase in hand grenade attacks is probably due to Putins continued war on Ukraine making heavy weapons more available on the european black market? I bet they get peddled by white power biker gangs too.
But never let a good opportunity to racist go by because where there is smoke, there is fire.
There is a lot of fire in eastern Ukraine btw
I read a report on the use of hand grenades in organized crime in the Netherlands, and it's all about the surplus from the Balkan wars being freely available on the black market. They are apparently easier to get and harder to trace than guns, so basically a perfect weapon for extorting "protection money".
In the Netherlands, at least, this has nothing to do with recent immigration. It's drug related and/or other organized crime syndicates.
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EPT
