EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 1614
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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KwarK
United States44450 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
9077 Posts
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On June 30 2019 03:46 farvacola wrote: I just made the mistake of perusing the various Facebook pages of Sons of Confederate Veterans chapters and man, there is some really depressing stuff there. Lots of defiant ignorance as a virtue performances, especially in the vein of The War of Northern Aggression and The Lost Cause. I think if history were taught properly it would cut down on that a lot. On some level though I can understand the South struggling to salvage its pride and identity after the devastation of the civil war. Trying to frame it heroically with historical revisionism is I guess easier than looking at it as unmitigated tragedy and loss. I guess there's less excuse the more generations we are from it though. I wonder how many of the modern pro Confederates actually harbor the belief that black people are no better than livestock. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 30 2019 03:59 Starlightsun wrote: I think if history were taught properly it would cut down on that a lot. On some level though I can understand the South struggling to salvage its pride and identity after the devastation of the civil war. Trying to frame it heroically with historical revisionism is I guess easier than looking at it as unmitigated tragedy and loss. I guess there's less excuse the more generations we are from it though. I wonder how many of the modern pro Confederates actually harbor the belief that black people are no better than livestock. I think it's pretty easy to see how a lot of conservative movements, particularly in the South, are reactionary. To be fair, we say basically nothing positive about Southern culture, since it's the embodiment of both American culture that is ridiculed by everyone (consumerism, unhealthy lifestyles, ignorance, etc.) plus the added weight of the worst historical aspects of racism and other bigotry in our country. We basically tell the South that it's a complete shit hole (in more diplomatic terms) while saying little to nothing positive about it or its culture. Meanwhile we try to extol the virtues of multiculturalism and tolerance of other cultures from other countries that normalize blatant authoritarianism and sexism (many Muslim countries) or corruption, raping women, and religious discrimination (e.g. India, southeast Asia). Now don't get me wrong, I think the South is a shit hole and you couldn't pay me enough money to live there permanently, but I can at least sympathize a little bit. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 30 2019 05:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Who says the South is a complete shithole? As opposed to Donald Trump who frequently tells others that their countries are shitholes. You are projecting methinks. Everyone? We constantly criticize the South for slavery, racism, sexism, terrible healthcare (and health), terrible education, abortion rights, over-emphasis of religion, incest, ignorance of other cultures, gun violence, etc. etc. etc. This isn't projecting. I don't know if you live under a rock or not, but I am extremely progressive and am surrounded by extremely progressive friends. I have a very large social media circle and read pretty much every major liberal news outlet, as well as being exposed to the more passionately liberal websites/blogs/activists/etc. The Left doesn't say nice things about the U.S. or American culture, ever, and we certainly shit on the South as often as possible. Anything nice that's ever said about American or Southern culture ends up being qualified with some version of "but it was stolen from X racial/ethnic/national group" or "but it was all built off of an institution of extreme oppression, so don't take any joy in it". This is another one of those things that liberals refuse to acknowledge about how their messaging creates conflict. It's just like how it took a long time for the Left to acknowledge that we lost to Trump because we put up a shitty candidate with shitty messaging and communication as opposed to "we lost because the other side is stupid and sexist". The Left has a massive problem of "being correct doesn't make you right about something". | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
The rest seems kind of out at hand when you went on an extraordinary rant about how much you hate cyclists andvegetarians, so perhaps less projection and pointing out the mote in other's eyes and more tolerance and forgiveness with lighten the darkness in your heart. Also, there is nothing wrong with criticism and speaking the truth even if it runs counter to nationalist sentiment. I criticise Uk all the time, but it is becuase I want UK to be as great as it can be. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 30 2019 06:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Those are all true (except probably incest) and there is no excuse for any of those, least of all "reactionary". I don't think you understood the point. I was saying that it's understandable why conservatives are so militant about their animosity for progressive causes when we look at how we talk about them. It's worth understanding a complex problem to come up with better solutions. There's a reason why we've lost so many political fights over the past decade despite being against the racism/sexism/xenophobia of conservatives, and it's not just because we haven't been yelling loud enough. This also ties into my second point. We (the Left) essentially make excuses for all of those things being present in other cultures that we tell conservatives to be accepting of, but we criticize conservatives for those same things while saying very little about it when it's on our side. It all comes across as hypocritical and it makes it look like we're just trying to win the political game while standing on an ethical soap box to make ourselves feel better. Those are all true (except probably incest) and compltely valid criticisms and there is no excuse for any of those, least of all "reactionary". The rest seems kind of out at hand when you went on an extraordinary rant about how much you hate cyclists andvegetarians, so perhaps less projection and pointing out the mote in other's eyes and more tolerance and forgiveness with lighten the darkness in your heart. Also, there is nothing wrong with criticism and speaking the truth even if it runs counter to nationalist sentiment. I criticise Uk all the time, but it is becuase I want UK to be as great as it can be. It's hardly an "extraordinary rant" just because I actually attempt to understand what people on the other side of the aisle are feeling when we lob constant ethical accusations at them. I invite you to step off of your and arrogant soap box and interact a little more with the other side of the political aisle in the real world. It's very clear that you live in a progressive echo chamber and this is one of the biggest obstacles to us (progressives) getting real political victories. Again, if you're lost, this isn't about being correct. Yea, we should build more bike lanes and public transportation, we should emphasize being vegetarian and eat processed meat less, we should change culture and laws (particularly in the South) to combat institutionalized sexism and racism, we should fight attempts to demonize Islam vs. Christianity, we should be fighting homophobia everywhere, we should make extremely aggressive moves to combat climate change, we should change from the atrocious healthcare system we have to a universal healthcare system. If you're still confused, I support all of these things and I have been very vocal about it. But it doesn't matter that we're correct, because that's gotten us nowhere except for watching a reactionary conservative movement make constant political gains. We've shown no sympathy and no regard for rural/white/conservative concerns in relation to what all of our policies and positions would do. Yea, conservatives/white people/rural populations will end up benefiting from liberal policies, but "suck it up because you'll benefit too, and btw you're all terrible people" doesn't work when we talk about black issues or LGBT issues; we emphasize that we have to uniquely address each of their issues as well. So why is it OK to shit on white rural/Christian/working-class communities and then act all surprised when they don't support us in elections, resulting in losses? | ||
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KwarK
United States44450 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 30 2019 07:46 KwarK wrote: I trust you’ll be equally sympathetic when the flat earthers take over and insist that they had to mobilize due to the scorn of the ivory tower globist elites. This comment is functionally meaningless. Do you have an actual point to add with this or...? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Btw I consider myself on the right if I consider the unhelpful political axis of right and left in the first place. I refuse to bowdown to recent internet usage of "the right" to mean the administration of Trump and the reprehenisible forces and politcs he openly courts. | ||
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KwarK
United States44450 Posts
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KwarK
United States44450 Posts
On June 30 2019 07:52 Stratos_speAr wrote: This comment is functionally meaningless. Do you have an actual point to add with this or...? The South gets shit on for being the way they choose to be. The problem isn’t that they’ve banded together to protest people calling them racists, it’s that they’re racists. We need less tolerance, not more. We don’t need to be more inclusive towards them so they don’t feel so alienated, we need them to stop deliberately choosing to be aliens. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 30 2019 07:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Let me get this straight. We are supposed to forget that you are firmly on "the right", and constantly advocate for republican causes, when you say "We (the Left)? So forgive me for thinking that you aren't actually doing just that. Btw I consider myself on the right if I consider the unhelpful political axis of right and left in the first place. I refuse to bowdown to recent internet usage of "the right" to mean the administration of Trump and the reprehenisible forces and politcs he openly courts. Name one instance where I've actually advocated for a Republican cause. I'll wait, because you're so laughably wrong that this is becoming a waste of my time. I am extremely progressive on every political issue and there isn't a single issue that I would ever vote Republican on. Also you're in the U.S. Politics thread. U.S. political discourse talks about a binary "right" and "left". Regardless of the nuance, it's widely accepted language that has its uses. The problem is too much acceptance of utterly invalid viewpoints out of a desire to appeal to both sides and treat all views as equal. The BBC recently updated their broadcasting standards to try to address this by allowing equal opportunity to propose solutions to issues but not equal opportunity to invent issues. When Trump says shit like Hillary gave Russia uranium we shouldn’t have one side saying it’s bad and the other saying it’s not true, we should have one side saying Trump misspoke but he might just be senile and the other calling him a liar. When xDaunt claims that by letting Iran keep the cash while also letting them sell their oil while also getting them out of the restrictions of the nuclear treaty Trump has their nuts in a vice we should be ridiculing him. These are not ideological divides, these are invalid. They’re lies and we need to treat them as such. The process is far too inclusive as it is because we rely upon shame to keep people honest when these people feel no shame. There's a difference between what basically amounts to appeasement (tolerance to the point where you don't challenge ethically abhorrent views in the name of "tolerance) and not being a condescending asshole that alienates roughly 50% of the population by acting morally superior on every single issue. Believe it or not, there is a very wide divide between those two extremes, but the progressive echo chamber just doesn't really know that. Pretty much every single time we have this argument, it's a bunch of progressives in this thread saying, "LOLZ conservatives are so dumb, I can't possibly fathom how they wouldn't see it exactly as I do!". A bunch of other people agree, and then I make the point that "actually, this is why people that don't agree with us are upset..." and people proceed to lose their minds because they don't actually seem to care enough to understand. It strikes me as astoundingly hypocritical that we show sympathy to so many marginalized groups and want to understand where they come from, but we have absolutely zero sympathy for our political opponents. I'm not talking about giving terrible conservative ideals a free pass. I'm also not talking about giving people like Danglars and xDaunt a pass when they're intelligent and informed enough to know that they're being terrible people. I'm talking about turning the asshole meter down from 11, because no matter how hard you might try to say "well I don't act like this to conservatives in real life" and "yea, I care and can sympathize with everyday conservatives", that's a load of shit. In mainstream public discourse (including this forum and many others), progressives absolutely could not care less about any conservative values or conservative viewpoints, regardless of the issue. And just like we criticize Trump for whataboutism, don't start with "but conservatives are bad at this too!". Yes, I know. I serve in the military, so I also know a lot of conservatives, but I don't play for their team and I already argue with them enough. I'm talking about how our side of the aisle could improve and hopefully succeed more. The South gets shit on for being the way they choose to be. The problem isn’t that they’ve banded together to protest people calling them racists, it’s that they’re racists. We need less tolerance, not more. We don’t need to be more inclusive towards them so they don’t feel so alienated, we need them to stop deliberately choosing to be aliens. So white rural communities choose to be racists and should be ridiculed, but black urban communities are purely victims of the system and we need to fix that system. Don't see the contradiction here? The reality is that white rural communities are victims of the system as well. They get born into something, indoctrinated by it, and then find it hard to leave. But we don't show them any sympathy. We don't show them any compassion about their views, opinions, or problems, despite the science that we shed so much praise on consistently showing us that political persuasion and motivation has very little to do with being factually correct. We have absolutely zero fucks to give about conservative/rural problems while criticizing them for the same things that we don't criticize our own people for; black communities are socially moderate and relatively against gay marriage, Hispanics have some of the lowest support for abortion rights out of any racial groups, and even white liberals are still pretty damn racist. And I'm not going to take any shit from a Republican that tries to criticize my party about these things when they're party platform explicitly endorses xenophobia and sexism, but it still doesn't mean that we don't have problems in our party. A defiant and condescending attitude landed us with the worst president in the history of the country elected and a longstanding conservative majority on the Supreme Court. So yea, I think it's worth empathizing just a liiiiiiiiitle bit with conservative communities, and I point this directly at you Kwark because you come across as the embodiment of the rich, liberal coastal elite, as you 1) came from a much more liberal European country, 2) are educated and rich, and 3) haven't once demonstrated even the slightest give-a-fuck about any conservative or rural issue or concern in this thread. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Either way, those criticism you have written are all true (except probably incest) and compltely valid criticisms and there is no excuse for any of those, least of all "reactionary". Historic revisionism happens no matter what; it cannot be blamed as a reaction to loss of pride. What happened when Nazi germany lost the war? What happened there is not the same as what happened for the "South". There is no soul searching, no despondence, no attempt to might things right, and you can be sure that the horrors of nazi germany were far in excess of that of the south. To this day germans have to live with that they are taunted over the history of 70 years ago, whilst no one taunts "Southerners" over losing a civil war in general. There is a lot more to politics than a the shallow depth understand of left and right. It is artificial and meaningless, more so as time passes. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 30 2019 08:13 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Actually now that i think about it, I can't think of any on top of my head. So perhaps I am wrong there. I probably confused you with someone whos name starts with S and ends in R. So i am sorry and I probablt wrong and apologise of that is the case which it probably is. Either way, those criticism you have written are all true (except probably incest) and compltely valid criticisms and there is no excuse for any of those, least of all "reactionary". Historic revisionism happens no matter what; it cannot be blamed as a reaction to loss of pride. What happened when Nazi germany lost the war? What happened there is not the same as what happened for the "South". There is no soul searching, no despondence, no attempt to might things right, and you can be sure that the horrors of nazi germany were far in excess of that of the south. To this day germans have to live with that they are taunted over the history of 70 years ago, whilst no one taunts "Southerners" over losing a civil war in general. There is a lot more to politics than a the shallow depth understand of left and right. It is artificial and meaningless, more so as time passes. Confused identities are fine, no harm done. For the criticisms, I never said they weren't true. but let's look at a different example. When Republicans talk about black communities not thriving and talk about "personal responsibility" and "they need to change their culture", we call them out as racist, and rightly so. We talk about the institutions of poverty, racism, oppression, etc. that keep black communities in a vicious and how we need to make big, structural change to fix that. But then we look at the conservative South and, while knowing very well how people react to certain ways of persuasion (since we're so into science and all), we do nothing but demonize them without even understanding their actual opinions. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/republicans-and-democrats-dont-understand-each-other/592324/ According to the Democratic caricature, most Republicans stridently oppose immigration, hold deeply prejudiced views about religious minorities, and are blind to the existence of racism or sexism. Asked to guess what share of Republicans believe that immigration can strengthen America so long as it is “properly controlled,” for example, Democrats estimated about half; actually, nearly nine in 10 agreed with this sentiment. Democrats also estimated that four in 10 Republicans believe that “many Muslims are good Americans,” and that only half recognize that “racism still exists in America.” In reality, those figures were two-thirds and four in five. What we don't acknowledge is that we contribute to the system that keeps our political opponents obstinate and stuck in their ways. Conservatives don't just sit in a void with full, rational knowledge and decide "I'm going to be a racist". Their views are shaped by the complex system around them, just like everyone else's views and behaviors are. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22705 Posts
On June 30 2019 08:37 Stratos_speAr wrote: Here is the problem with those stats, they are all talk, while actions speak much louder.Confused identities are fine, no harm done. For the criticisms, I never said they weren't true. but let's look at a different example. When Republicans talk about black communities not thriving and talk about "personal responsibility" and "they need to change their culture", we call them out as racist, and rightly so. We talk about the institutions of poverty, racism, oppression, etc. that keep black communities in a vicious and how we need to make big, structural change to fix that. But then we look at the conservative South and, while knowing very well how people react to certain ways of persuasion (since we're so into science and all), we do nothing but demonize them without even understanding their actual opinions. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/republicans-and-democrats-dont-understand-each-other/592324/ What we don't acknowledge is that we contribute to the system that keeps our political opponents obstinate and stuck in their ways. Conservatives don't just sit in a void with full, rational knowledge and decide "I'm going to be a racist". Their views are shaped by the complex system around them, just like everyone else's views and behaviors are. They can say they acknowledge racism still exists in America but they do little to nothing about it and keep voting for the same people trying to implement more racist policy year after year. Your right tho, their views, like everyone else, are shaped by the world around them but thanks to Fox and internet echo chambers its hard to get through to them. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 29 2019 07:12 xDaunt wrote: Ugh, Igne. Why are you leading them down this path to semantic oblivion? You know damned well what I was talking about. For the rest of you, go back read my post again. The specific phrase that I used was "multiculturalism as a value." That is a very distinct concept from multiculturalism as a state of being. What do you mean by 'Multiculturalism as a value' though? More precisely, what lens do you expect history to be judged to come to the conclusion that multiculturalism is a happy accident as opposed to an intentional state of affairs considered desirable? You know, just to avoid you leaning on the rail of semantics yourself, as you're fond of doing. | ||
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