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On April 20 2019 03:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 03:17 Plansix wrote:
It doesn’t help that Dick Cheney’s wife is a major player in the GOP and a member of Congress. Really puts a whole damper accountability. As I've mentioned before MSNBC has William Krystol on all the time despite their #1 ratings grabber (Rachel Maddow) having partially made her bones on systematically destroying his credibility and that of any organization with the audacity to give him a platform. It's easy to point it out on the other side as JimmiC points out, the reason we don't get anywhere though is an inability or refusal to see the same patterns within one's own party or self. That said I think "tribalism" is a poor descriptor.
To be honest the “but the dems are just as bad!!” is every bit as counter productive.
Torture was not ok until Bush. Then it was great. Then Obama said it was horrifying and it stopped. Then Trump said it was a great idea and put a torturer as head of the CIA.
But they are all the same apparently.
And I’m not saying that democrats are great. Just that complete and utter lack of nuance is as damaging and as brain dead as tribalism.
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On April 20 2019 03:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 03:17 Plansix wrote:
It doesn’t help that Dick Cheney’s wife is a major player in the GOP and a member of Congress. Really puts a whole damper accountability. As I've mentioned before MSNBC has William Krystol on all the time despite their #1 ratings grabber (Rachel Maddow) having partially made her bones on systematically destroying his credibility and that of any organization with the audacity to give him a platform. It's easy to point it out on the other side as JimmiC points out, the reason we don't get anywhere though is an inability or refusal to see the same patterns within one's own party or self. That said I think "tribalism" is a poor descriptor.
It is easy to blame anyone for why so few are held accountable for what happened during the Bush administration. Finding a way to hold people accountable while the parties responsible continue to hold power is the hard part.
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On April 20 2019 03:46 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 03:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 20 2019 03:17 Plansix wrote:
It doesn’t help that Dick Cheney’s wife is a major player in the GOP and a member of Congress. Really puts a whole damper accountability. As I've mentioned before MSNBC has William Krystol on all the time despite their #1 ratings grabber (Rachel Maddow) having partially made her bones on systematically destroying his credibility and that of any organization with the audacity to give him a platform. It's easy to point it out on the other side as JimmiC points out, the reason we don't get anywhere though is an inability or refusal to see the same patterns within one's own party or self. That said I think "tribalism" is a poor descriptor. To be honest the “but the dems are just as bad!!” is every bit as counter productive. Torture was not ok until Bush. Then it was great. Then Obama said it was horrifying and it stopped. Then Trump said it was a great idea and put a torturer as head of the CIA. But they are all the same apparently. And I’m not saying that democrats are great. Just that complete and utter lack of nuance is as damaging and as brain dead as tribalism.
Just to be clear my argument isn't "dems are just as bad". It's what I wrote, that a failure (whatever its cause) to examine how the same patterns and behaviors are reflected in their own views, politicians, etc... is a big part of why we don't get anywhere.
The validity of "but they are worse" doesn't invalidate my point, however the charge that came with it strongly supports my point in my view.
The isolation of my comment to the reductive topic of "torture" further supports my point imo.
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On April 20 2019 03:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 03:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 20 2019 03:17 Plansix wrote:
It doesn’t help that Dick Cheney’s wife is a major player in the GOP and a member of Congress. Really puts a whole damper accountability. As I've mentioned before MSNBC has William Krystol on all the time despite their #1 ratings grabber (Rachel Maddow) having partially made her bones on systematically destroying his credibility and that of any organization with the audacity to give him a platform. It's easy to point it out on the other side as JimmiC points out, the reason we don't get anywhere though is an inability or refusal to see the same patterns within one's own party or self. That said I think "tribalism" is a poor descriptor. It is easy to blame anyone for why so few are held accountable for what happened during the Bush administration. Finding a way to hold people accountable while the parties responsible continue to hold power is the hard part.
Well thing is that accountability is very hard to get in democracy. The risk that the ruling party goes after everyone from the previous government is an existential threat to all democracies. And the balance between the three powers is incredibly hard to achieve.
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On April 20 2019 03:17 Plansix wrote:
It doesn’t help that Dick Cheney’s wife is a major player in the GOP and a member of Congress. Really puts a whole damper accountability.
That's his daughter. She's against gay marriage for electoral benefit while her sister is gay. It's an amazing family.
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On April 20 2019 03:57 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 03:17 Plansix wrote:
It doesn’t help that Dick Cheney’s wife is a major player in the GOP and a member of Congress. Really puts a whole damper accountability. That's his daughter. She's against gay marriage for electoral benefit while her sister is gay. It's an amazing family.
Thanksgiving must be amazing.
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She’s been going around to anti-socialism political events and decrying the horrors of universal healthcare and guaranteed benefits for the elderly. Quite a chip off the old block.
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I’m looking forward to the campaign to demonize socialism in the era where the entire electorate can use the internet. Soon their candidates will, get up on stage and break out the classic “healthcare in Denmark and Sweden is terrible and there is a 4year wait list for minor surgery.” And then people from those very countries will respond “What the fuck are your politicians talking about?” with hilarious accents and local insults. And then they will search the internet to see if it is true and find out it kinda isn’t.
Will it change the minds of the Republican base? Nope. Will it make them look real dumb to undecided voters that decide elections? Likely.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
Yeah I'm with Jimmi on that one tbh, it can very much be a double-edged sword in that way.
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My hope is that America voters are more aware of disinformation this election and less prone to the tricks used in 2016. Especially after the report shows that other governments were very interested sowing descent and division through our election.
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I had a discussion with a libertarian on twitter the other day who said high taxation and social program only lead to misery. So I answered: “yeah but what about Denmark?” and his answer was “wait ten and fifteen years and you will see!”
Ideology >>>>>>>> basic facts on the internet, unfortunately.
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But did we care about the vote of a libertarian on the quest to shore out our social safety nets? Not really. They are the most eager to argue the points, but not the people are going to change their vote based on that argument.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 20 2019 04:47 Plansix wrote:
But did we care about the vote of a libertarian on the quest to shore out our social safety nets? Not really. They are the most eager to argue the points, but not the people are going to change their vote based on that argument.
If their position is predicated on practical concerns, and they’re actually wrong then maybe?
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On April 20 2019 05:07 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 04:47 Plansix wrote:
But did we care about the vote of a libertarian on the quest to shore out our social safety nets? Not really. They are the most eager to argue the points, but not the people are going to change their vote based on that argument. If their position is predicated on practical concerns, and they’re actually wrong then maybe?
If they have practical concerns about the viability of Denmark’s social services long term, they have the power to articulate them a productive fashion. The example above is the opposite of that .
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On April 20 2019 02:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 02:45 wulfdog wrote:On April 20 2019 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 20 2019 02:38 JimmiC wrote:On April 20 2019 02:31 Plansix wrote:
As people are pointing on NPR and other outlets, the only reason Trump didn’t obstruct justice was because people in the White House refused to carry out his requests. Primarily out of concern they would be charged with obstruction of justice if they did. That is a challenging narrative to get around, especially when one of those people was White House counsel. Trump ordered them to, as they saw it, commit crimes. I believe this to be not disputable. And whether or not you think that act is illegal you would hope that everyone would think a person ordering others to commit crimes on their behalf is not fitting for a president. We'd hope, but the war crimes presidents commit have pretty bipartisan support so I doubt this political stuff moves the needle much if at all. Unless you are talking about the War Crimes in Yemen. An actual bipartisan majority in both houses stood up against war crimes. Then a certain someone vetoed the resolution. The bill passed the House 247-175. Sixteen Republicans voted yes with Democrats and one voted present. In the Senate the vote was 54 to 46, with seven Republicans voting with Democrats.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/16/politics/trump-vetoes-yemen-war-powers-resolution/index.html We defiantly made torture ok and made policy of torturing people during and maybe beyond the Bush administration. And a whole bunch of other stuff. The US’s hands are far far far from clean. There are worse actors in the world, but we are very bad at holding people accountable at home.
Exactly, or abroad... for example by not recognizing international war tribunals jurisdiction as soon as they target someone from the US... International organisations are good as long as they serve the US's interests...
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Fun little anecdote in the report. Remember when Trump publically asked Russia to find the missing 30k emails and his supporters ignored it or brushed it off as a joke (as recently as this month iirc)? Well according to Mueller within 5 hours of that request the Russian GRU hacking team targeted Clinton's personal office for the first time.
Party of patriots my ass.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 20 2019 05:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 05:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 20 2019 04:47 Plansix wrote:
But did we care about the vote of a libertarian on the quest to shore out our social safety nets? Not really. They are the most eager to argue the points, but not the people are going to change their vote based on that argument. If their position is predicated on practical concerns, and they’re actually wrong then maybe? If they have practical concerns about the viability of Denmark’s social services long term, they have the power to articulate them a productive fashion. The example above is the opposite of that .
I meant more are they ideologically hard line on libertarianism, or is it predicated on bad information they’ve received as to the sustainability of social programs, wasn’t really clear.
People are actually receptive to new information, provided it doesn’t conflict with a view that is strongly held emotionally.
My pessimistic worldview is mostly because many people have strong emotional attachments to their views and battering my head against that wall for years, a wall which seems to be increasing over time.
Conversely though it’s easier to change people’s minds provided they hold positions on a pragmatic basis. For example ‘I was told x can’t work’ can flip pretty quickly if you show it can.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 20 2019 05:32 On_Slaught wrote:
Fun little anecdote in the report. Remember when Trump publically asked Russia to find the missing 30k emails and his supporters ignored it or brushed it off as a joke (as recently as this month iirc)? Well according to Mueller within 5 hours of that request the Russian GRU hacking team targeted Clinton's personal office for the first time.
Party of patriots my ass.
Is anyone who has to say they’re a patriot not either an idiot, or using it as a shield for shitty things they want to do?
I mean obviously there are, plenty, still mere use of the word is usually enough to set off my bullshit detector
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EPT
