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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1355

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 18 2019 21:37 GMT
#27081
On April 19 2019 06:34 KwarK wrote:
I’m going to start moderating NK apologists the same way Nazi apologists get moderated. Should make things simple enough.

That is pretty harsh, IMO. Now the term "Western Propaganda" in the context of discussion of NK might need a look.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
April 18 2019 21:39 GMT
#27082
On April 19 2019 06:34 KwarK wrote:
I’m going to start moderating NK apologists the same way Nazi apologists get moderated. Should make things simple enough.


I'm sure McCarthy would be proud. I get it though.

The consensus here is that NK domestic policy is unambiguously worse than US foreign policy and there will be no further discussion on the topic.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 18 2019 21:45 GMT
#27083
More that NK is run by a bad man that executes his former girlfriends, family members and generals with anti-aircraft weapons, in public and on over live broadcasts. That stuff is just fact. I'm sure you can watch the videos if you are so inclined.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
April 18 2019 21:45 GMT
#27084
I mean is it?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
April 18 2019 21:47 GMT
#27085
On April 19 2019 04:35 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2019 03:53 crms wrote:
If I tell a bunch of people to do illegal shit, I'm trying to do illegal shit, how successful I am matters in sentencing but not in criminality, right? If I attempt to rob a bank but then walk away, I'm still in deep shit. If I hire a hitman and he doesn't fulfill his obligation, I'm still in deep shit. If I order my employees to do a bunch of illegal stuff and they don't follow through, I'm still in deep shit.

I'd hope you find yourself surrounded by friends that will restrain your worst impulses. Especially if you're being hounded by enemies for crimes you didn't commit, who are committing criminal offenses to get you.

From Barr:
Show nested quote +
In assessing the President’s actions discussed in the report, it is important to bear in mind the context. President Trump faced an unprecedented situation. As he entered into office, and sought to perform his responsibilities as President, federal agents and prosecutors were scrutinizing his conduct before and after taking office, and the conduct of some of his associates. At the same time, there was relentless speculation in the news media about the President’s personal culpability. Yet, as he said from the beginning, there was in fact no collusion. And as the Special Counsel’s report acknowledges, there is substantial evidence to show that the President was frustrated and angered by a sincere belief that the investigation was undermining his presidency, propelled by his political opponents, and fueled by illegal leaks. Nonetheless, the White House fully cooperated with the Special Counsel’s investigation, providing unfettered access to campaign and White House documents, directing senior aides to testify freely, and asserting no privilege claims. And at the same time, the President took no act that in fact deprived the Special Counsel of the documents and witnesses necessary to complete his investigation. Apart from whether the acts were obstructive, this evidence of non-corrupt motives weighs heavily against any allegation that the President had a corrupt intent to obstruct the investigation.

The criminal standard is corrupt intent. The fact that the President assisted the investigation with access to whatever documents and senior staff Mueller wanted works against any claim that Trump possessed the mens rea. In point of fact, he aided the investigation.

Compare it with other criminal statutes that do not need intent, such as reckless endangerment.

How can you state something like this with a straight face? He aided the investigation? After flaming it every day for two years? Attacking the people doing said investigation relentlessly? After calling people cooperating rats?

Soon after he fired Corney, however, the President became aware that investigators were conducting an obstruction-of-justice inquiry into his own conduct. That awareness marked a significant change in the President s conduct and the start of a second phase of action. The President launched public attacks on the investigation and individuals involved in it who could possess evidence adverse to the President, while in private, the President engaged in a series of targeted efforts to control the investigation. For instance, the President attempted to remove the Special Counsel; he sought to have Attorney General Sessions unrecuse himself and limit the investigation; he sought to prevent public disclosure of information about the June 9, 2016 meeting between Russians and campaign officials; and he used public forums to attack potential witnesses who might offer adverse information and to praise witnesses who declined to cooperate with the government.


From page 370. Does that sound like aiding?
Neosteel Enthusiast
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9077 Posts
April 18 2019 21:50 GMT
#27086
It isn't censorship at all. It is you. GH, hating everything American that you are searching in vain for any reason to equate NK to US on any metric. It is factual that NK is just worse than than the US in domestic affairs and they have no foreign policy besides propaganda. They're barely welcome to participate in the world stage.

As a Black Male in the US, I will say you are delusional in your animosity towards the US. Not meaning offense, but let's get it out there and be done with it.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 18 2019 21:54 GMT
#27087
On April 19 2019 06:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
I mean is it?

They could have faked those public executions. But it is unclear why they would do such a thing.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
April 18 2019 21:56 GMT
#27088
If' I'm not going to be allowed to respond can we just drop it?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
April 18 2019 21:56 GMT
#27089
There is a huge amount of room to validly criticize the US without resorting to stilted comparisons with nations like NK and Venezuela.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44442 Posts
April 18 2019 22:00 GMT
#27090
On April 19 2019 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
If' I'm not going to be allowed to respond can we just drop it?

On the one hand, seems fair. On the other hand we’re all fine talking shit about the Third Reich without giving Nazis room to explain how they’ve just been portrayed negatively in media and that really it was the race mixers who were in the wrong.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-18 22:06:10
April 18 2019 22:02 GMT
#27091
On April 19 2019 07:00 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2019 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
If' I'm not going to be allowed to respond can we just drop it?

On the one hand, seems fair. On the other hand we’re all fine talking shit about the Third Reich without giving Nazis room to explain how they’ve just been portrayed negatively in media and that really it was the race mixers who were in the wrong.


Is this an invitation to make my argument without fear of repercussion (should it remain civil) or bait? Because so far I've been equated with Nazi apologists and disarmed from defending myself at this point.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
April 18 2019 22:05 GMT
#27092
NK is morally repugnant I don’t think people are going to argue otherwise

The US is an eminent world power that’s brand is tied into certain ideals that it frequently is extremely dubious to say that it lives up to.

NK is a pariah state because it’s terrible, but also that it doesn’t have other importance, and also because it doesn’t have nukes.

As long as the likes of the US and UK are happy to ell arms to the likes of Saudi Arabia who have extremely poor records in all sorts of human rights domains, then no the US is not somehow worse than NK but cedes much of their moral high ground.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44442 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-18 22:17:00
April 18 2019 22:06 GMT
#27093
On April 19 2019 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2019 07:00 KwarK wrote:
On April 19 2019 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
If' I'm not going to be allowed to respond can we just drop it?

On the one hand, seems fair. On the other hand we’re all fine talking shit about the Third Reich without giving Nazis room to explain how they’ve just been portrayed negatively in media and that really it was the race mixers who were in the wrong.


Is this an invitation to make my argument without fear of repercussion (should it remain civil) or bait?

Neither, I think you misunderstood.

I feel the same way about people ganging up on NK as I do about them ganging up on the Third Reich. If they want to have a one sided bash on it they can. Hell, Nazis more than anyone can complain that the media hasn’t given them much in the way of positive portrayal. They went straight from Allied propaganda to being a stand-in villain in movies, tv, video games etc. There was no balanced discussion of why the Jews needed to die in Schindler’s List. They just treated the Nazis like villains, as always. But I wouldn’t be interested in hearing that argument from a Nazi and I’m not interested in hearing it from a tankie. Concentration camps are bad.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
PoulsenB
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland7769 Posts
April 18 2019 22:07 GMT
#27094
Regarding NK, I remember reading a report from a foreign tourist who visited the country (yes, they do accept tourists), and he described how peasants working the fields would run away the moment they saw westerners because they knew if they were seen talking to them they and their families would end up in a penitentiary labor camp or worse. Comparing the US to this is a bit unfair, even keeping in mind all the many things that are wrong about Uncle Sam.
IdrA fan forever <3 || the clueless one || Marci must be protected at all costs
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
April 18 2019 22:09 GMT
#27095
Anyway I’m not sure why we’re discussing North Korea anyway as Trump already sorted the whole thing out already.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
April 18 2019 22:11 GMT
#27096
On April 19 2019 04:20 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2019 04:12 xDaunt wrote:
On April 19 2019 04:00 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2019 03:38 xDaunt wrote:
On April 19 2019 03:25 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On April 19 2019 03:01 xDaunt wrote:
On April 19 2019 02:16 On_Slaught wrote:
On April 19 2019 02:05 IgnE wrote:
On April 19 2019 01:49 On_Slaught wrote:
On April 19 2019 01:45 IgnE wrote:
[quote]

honestly none of that surprises me. maybe I didnt “know it” in all of the particulars, but again, simply grafting some details onto an irrelevant tree doesn’t make it relevant without argument. didnt everyone already suspect that trump wiuld act like that? even xdaunt and danglars probably thought so


By "act like that" do you mean a multi year operation, which he tried to cover up, to try and kill an investigation into himself? That some people might argue that doesnt rise to an indictable offense doesnt change what is clear for everyone to see. And thankfully, for the first time it really is clear for all to see.


frankly, yes, i do mean that. it’s strange how you guys take a couple of trump’s tweets so seriously when you know that he’s a liar.

nobody here was on the fence. we already know that more “data” is not persuasive to people ideologically divided. the only relevant question for me is how to convince people to contextualize the data differently. this is largely a matter for rhetoric, that ancient discipline recently much-maligned. the report may help with constructing the argument but it doesn’t suffice on its own and petty back and forths miss the target. what i want is a cogent, targeted response. the only person i’ve seen do that consistently on this topic is kwark, tonwhom danglars and xdaunt do not respond, perhaps because they do not significantly disagree with the underlying propositions


I'm not so sure both sides agreed on the facts to the point where a debate about whether the facts meet the elements of the crime was appropriate. There were too many unknowns. That's why this report being public is so important; it lets everyone see what happened in chronological order and with great detail.

Now if we could get xDaunt and co. to come out and state that what Mueller lays out in the report is the final and complete fact set, then, and only then, can we move on to contextualizing with regards to the elements of the law.

I already said last night that the Mueller report will have to read in conjunction with what Giuliani's team puts out. Between those two reports, we should have a fairly comprehensive set of facts regarding the propriety of Trump's actions, though these documents likely will not reach issues regarding the propriety of the underlying investigation(s). We'll have to wait longer for that.

You sais that Barr's summary of the report was entirely accurate. So I'm not entirely sure why anyone should take your advice faithfully on what should or should not be read.

And what is inaccurate about it?

Extreme selective quoting with intend to mislead. Providing zero substance on the russia stuff of which there are many pages with some very serious actions and lots of proof Trump lied about stuff.

Mueller worked under the framework of no indictments for sitting presidents under guidance of OLC, and that's why no charges were brought, Barr denied this and claimed exoneration on obstruction while the report has boatloads of examples of obstruction.

See below ' we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgement that the president committed crimes.' Barr was talking out of his ass.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



I haven't had a chance to read the report in detail, but I highly doubt that any of this is accurate or on point for the purpose of demonstrating that Barr lied. What Mueller has obviously done with his report is lay out a bunch of facts that "look like" criminal activity for the purpose of creating the appearance of criminal activity, but actually don't constitute criminal activity. All of the stuff about the Trump Tower meeting that we have been hearing about all of this time is case in point.

Just to be clear, are you claiming that the Special Counsel is out to get the President by creating the appearance of criminality?

Yes. And this is not just based upon the content and form of the report. It accounts for the entirety of the conduct of the investigation and prosecution of certain cases.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 18 2019 22:12 GMT
#27097
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
April 18 2019 22:13 GMT
#27098
On April 19 2019 07:06 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2019 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 19 2019 07:00 KwarK wrote:
On April 19 2019 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
If' I'm not going to be allowed to respond can we just drop it?

On the one hand, seems fair. On the other hand we’re all fine talking shit about the Third Reich without giving Nazis room to explain how they’ve just been portrayed negatively in media and that really it was the race mixers who were in the wrong.


Is this an invitation to make my argument without fear of repercussion (should it remain civil) or bait?

Neither, I think you misunderstood.

I feel the same way about people ganging up on NK as I do about them ganging up on the Third Reich. If they want to have a one sided bash on it they can.


I'm going to say that equating what I've said to being a Nazi apologist is an unfair and inaccurate personal attack, but since it also came with a threat of a perm ban should I defend myself with a relevant argument on the subjects at hand I'd consider it bait.

I just hope that next time we talk about the Palestinian people, that the flippant/inevitable treatment of their suffering and ethnic cleansing at the hands of Israel (supported by the US and Trump) isn't acceptable either.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44442 Posts
April 18 2019 22:30 GMT
#27099
On April 19 2019 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2019 07:06 KwarK wrote:
On April 19 2019 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 19 2019 07:00 KwarK wrote:
On April 19 2019 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
If' I'm not going to be allowed to respond can we just drop it?

On the one hand, seems fair. On the other hand we’re all fine talking shit about the Third Reich without giving Nazis room to explain how they’ve just been portrayed negatively in media and that really it was the race mixers who were in the wrong.


Is this an invitation to make my argument without fear of repercussion (should it remain civil) or bait?

Neither, I think you misunderstood.

I feel the same way about people ganging up on NK as I do about them ganging up on the Third Reich. If they want to have a one sided bash on it they can.


I'm going to say that equating what I've said to being a Nazi apologist is an unfair and inaccurate personal attack, but since it also came with a threat of a perm ban should I defend myself with a relevant argument on the subjects at hand I'd consider it bait.

I just hope that next time we talk about the Palestinian people, that the flippant/inevitable treatment of their suffering and ethnic cleansing at the hands of Israel (supported by the US and Trump) isn't acceptable either.

As far as I know nobody here is advocating for the Gaza Strip to be turned into a labour/re-education camp in which the occupants are worked to death without pay. Israel’s policy is obviously abhorrent but it’s far from as bad as NK, and I don’t think anyone is supportive of it as a general policy, the most supportive people tend to get it “it’s complicated and there are no good answers”. Whereas NK’s slave camps really aren’t as complicated and there are plenty of good answers like “stop enslaving people” or “close the camps”.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Nouar
Profile Joined May 2009
France3270 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-18 22:37:54
April 18 2019 22:36 GMT
#27100
On April 19 2019 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2019 07:06 KwarK wrote:
On April 19 2019 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 19 2019 07:00 KwarK wrote:
On April 19 2019 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
If' I'm not going to be allowed to respond can we just drop it?

On the one hand, seems fair. On the other hand we’re all fine talking shit about the Third Reich without giving Nazis room to explain how they’ve just been portrayed negatively in media and that really it was the race mixers who were in the wrong.


Is this an invitation to make my argument without fear of repercussion (should it remain civil) or bait?

Neither, I think you misunderstood.

I feel the same way about people ganging up on NK as I do about them ganging up on the Third Reich. If they want to have a one sided bash on it they can.


I'm going to say that equating what I've said to being a Nazi apologist is an unfair and inaccurate personal attack, but since it also came with a threat of a perm ban should I defend myself with a relevant argument on the subjects at hand I'd consider it bait.

I just hope that next time we talk about the Palestinian people, that the flippant/inevitable treatment of their suffering and ethnic cleansing at the hands of Israel (supported by the US and Trump) isn't acceptable either.

It might be a bit much to compare with nazis. However NK dictators have directly, and indirectly killed dozens of thousands of people to keep their power. This includes their policies towards the world leading to countrywide famine, political assassinations in plain view (sometimes public), holding families hostage to avoid diplomats or soldiers deserting, shooting defectors even after they crossed the border, etc etc.

The propaganda and leader cult is among the worst across the world, people coming in the country cannot visit freely, are accompanied at all times, have their devices checked, cannot freely take pictures or talk to people outside the prepared path.

I for one, consider what Israel (its government, and some colons mainly, not all jews or even israelis) is doing to the Palestinian people, is dangerously close to replicating the ghettos, policies, or branding they suffered at the hands of said nazis, but that is another topic, and not relevant to what NK is doing to its OWN people.
NoiR
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