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On February 27 2019 02:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On February 27 2019 02:43 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2019 02:40 xDaunt wrote:On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. It doesn't matter whether it's a "movement" or a "crowd." It's all semantics. On the abortion issue, there are two sides of the debate: pro-choice and and pro-life. My point is that the pro-choice side has adopted positions too extreme for mainstream America, which is damaging the pro-choice brand. Are you sure there are just two sides? I'm not convinced there are only two options. Are you going to say something important on the topic of whether Democrats' actions are hurting the pro-choice brand or are you simply going to argue semantics? I'm not interested in the latter. Am I going to engage in the bad faith argument you made on the terms you set? No likely. Again, you have yet to prove there are only two options. Or that the Democrats are not simply standing by their stance on opposing bad parts of abortion legislation. Because that NY law you are discussing is currently being written. Weirdly enough, parts of the law people think are bad get opposed. Its crazy, I know.
As far as I am concerned, acceptance of the existence of a pro-choice brand is a prerequisite to any political discussion about abortion. So yeah, you're doing everyone a favor by not engaging.
And NY already passed the bill.
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United States41991 Posts
On February 27 2019 02:53 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 02:40 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:35 Sent. wrote:On February 27 2019 02:25 Gorsameth wrote:
To even worry about the chance of a fetus being 'alive' and sustainable outside the mother your dealing with late late term abortions, which is only a thing in life threatening situations for the mother.
How often does this even happen in the US that you need legislation for it?
It sounds like yet another scare conjured up by Republicans for a problem that doesnt exist. Why does it matter how often that happens? Mass shootings are also rare and that doesn't stop people from asking for a legislative reaction whenever they occur. On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. What about christian crosses? Do those not count as pro-life symbols? I’m not sure I understand the question. Christian crosses are a religious symbol of varying significance depending upon the intent of the user. I mean that christian symbols, sickers and billboards can be perceived as pro-life symbols because most christian denominations actively oppose abortion.
Those aren’t what I meant. I’m talking specifically anti abortion material. It’s everywhere where I live because it’s organized and funded sufficiently that they can buy billboards, commercials, and so forth. Whereas the other side of the argument isn’t.
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On February 27 2019 02:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 02:49 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. I do see pro choice bumper stickers around actualy. But its so pendantic to not classify pro-choice as "just a group of people" Its a political movment that has 501c3 orgs promoting it as well as PAC's politicians that brand themselves as pro-life. What would it take for it to be a movment to you? A coherent and organized set of policy goals that are subscribed to by a formalized membership base would be a start. Right now it’s not even clear what someone means if they say they’re pro choice in terms of the criteria in which they’d permit abortions.
Most of the folks I talk to in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts, even the crazy left leaning people, have a variety of opinion on late term abortions. But they are also educated and informed enough to know that almost all late term abortions are preformed because there is something very wrong and the mother can't have the baby without serious risk.
This entire discussion if often devoid of the reality that childbirth is risky and can get the mother killed.
On February 27 2019 02:54 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 02:50 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2019 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On February 27 2019 02:43 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2019 02:40 xDaunt wrote:On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. It doesn't matter whether it's a "movement" or a "crowd." It's all semantics. On the abortion issue, there are two sides of the debate: pro-choice and and pro-life. My point is that the pro-choice side has adopted positions too extreme for mainstream America, which is damaging the pro-choice brand. Are you sure there are just two sides? I'm not convinced there are only two options. Are you going to say something important on the topic of whether Democrats' actions are hurting the pro-choice brand or are you simply going to argue semantics? I'm not interested in the latter. Am I going to engage in the bad faith argument you made on the terms you set? No likely. Again, you have yet to prove there are only two options. Or that the Democrats are not simply standing by their stance on opposing bad parts of abortion legislation. Because that NY law you are discussing is currently being written. Weirdly enough, parts of the law people think are bad get opposed. Its crazy, I know. As far as I am concerned, acceptance of the existence of a pro-choice brand is a prerequisite to any political discussion about abortion. So yeah, you're doing everyone a favor by not engaging. And NY already passed the bill.
My bad. Sounds like the Democrats passed a good law with reasonable restrictions on late term abortions that allow the mother's life to be taken into account. I don't see a problem.
The very concept of a pro-life vs pro-choice brand is a political construct used to create a binary choice in political viewpoints. It is to drive people into given groups and then pit them against each other. In this case, the anti-abortion advocates see it as beneficial to label anyone who would support any type of late term abortion as a child murderer because it allows them to push a narrative. In the short term, it might raise peoples emotions. But long term it will have no lasting impact because the baby murder isn't real. Late term abortions are used to prevent the death of the mother when the pregnancy goes horribly wrong and there are going to be no news stories about how horrible that baby murdering mother is.
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On February 27 2019 02:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 02:49 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. I do see pro choice bumper stickers around actualy. But its so pendantic to not classify pro-choice as "just a group of people" Its a political movment that has 501c3 orgs promoting it as well as PAC's politicians that brand themselves as pro-life. What would it take for it to be a movment to you? A coherent and organized set of policy goals that are subscribed to by a formalized membership base would be a start. Right now it’s not even clear what someone means if they say they’re pro choice in terms of the criteria in which they’d permit abortions.
Then theres no gun control movement because no one agrees on what exactly to control or how much. There's no civil rights movement and never was. theres no pro life movement either I guess. No anti gun control movement as well. No religious freedom movement or gay rights movement.
So basically there are no political movements in America and there have never been. Good to know.
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United States41991 Posts
On February 27 2019 02:58 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 02:52 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:49 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. I do see pro choice bumper stickers around actualy. But its so pendantic to not classify pro-choice as "just a group of people" Its a political movment that has 501c3 orgs promoting it as well as PAC's politicians that brand themselves as pro-life. What would it take for it to be a movment to you? A coherent and organized set of policy goals that are subscribed to by a formalized membership base would be a start. Right now it’s not even clear what someone means if they say they’re pro choice in terms of the criteria in which they’d permit abortions. Then theres no gun control movement because no one agrees on what exactly to control or how much. There's no civil rights movement and never was. theres no pro life movement either I guess. No anti gun control movement as well. No religious freedom movement or gay rights movement. So basically there are no political movements in America and there have never been. Good to know.
The NRA exists lol. Pro Life America exists. There are plenty of movements that have organized structures and membership bases. You’re presenting this as if expecting an organized movement to have organization is an absurd bar to pass, when really it’s the minimum achieved by most political movements.
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On February 27 2019 03:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 02:58 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:52 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:49 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. I do see pro choice bumper stickers around actualy. But its so pendantic to not classify pro-choice as "just a group of people" Its a political movment that has 501c3 orgs promoting it as well as PAC's politicians that brand themselves as pro-life. What would it take for it to be a movment to you? A coherent and organized set of policy goals that are subscribed to by a formalized membership base would be a start. Right now it’s not even clear what someone means if they say they’re pro choice in terms of the criteria in which they’d permit abortions. Then theres no gun control movement because no one agrees on what exactly to control or how much. There's no civil rights movement and never was. theres no pro life movement either I guess. No anti gun control movement as well. No religious freedom movement or gay rights movement. So basically there are no political movements in America and there have never been. Good to know. The NRA exists lol. Pro Life America exists. There are plenty of movements that have organized structures and membership bases. You’re presenting this as if expecting an organized movement to have organization is an absurd bar to pass, when really it’s the minimum achieved by most political movements.
Planned parenthood exists. NARAL pro choice America exists. There are plenty of pro choice orgs that are organized and do various things to advance the pro life cause with membership bases. You're presenting this as if expecting the pro life movement to somehow be any different to any other movement in america for no real reason.
Do you really think there is no organization to people who are pro life? That out of all the causes in america pro life is unique that it truly needs no organizations to advocate for it?
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And the NRA does not represent all gun owners. Pro Life America does not represent ever single viewpoint about abortion restrictions.
We are a big country with 50 different states. We can have discussions about laws, legislation and political movements without devolving into Cross Fire. We do not need to lump varied political views held by Americans into two groups because we are to lazy to dig into different views. We are better than the garbage discourse political entertainment shows like Hannity and Maddow.
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United States41991 Posts
On February 27 2019 03:08 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 03:01 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:58 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:52 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:49 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. I do see pro choice bumper stickers around actualy. But its so pendantic to not classify pro-choice as "just a group of people" Its a political movment that has 501c3 orgs promoting it as well as PAC's politicians that brand themselves as pro-life. What would it take for it to be a movment to you? A coherent and organized set of policy goals that are subscribed to by a formalized membership base would be a start. Right now it’s not even clear what someone means if they say they’re pro choice in terms of the criteria in which they’d permit abortions. Then theres no gun control movement because no one agrees on what exactly to control or how much. There's no civil rights movement and never was. theres no pro life movement either I guess. No anti gun control movement as well. No religious freedom movement or gay rights movement. So basically there are no political movements in America and there have never been. Good to know. The NRA exists lol. Pro Life America exists. There are plenty of movements that have organized structures and membership bases. You’re presenting this as if expecting an organized movement to have organization is an absurd bar to pass, when really it’s the minimum achieved by most political movements. Planned parenthood exists. National right to life exists. There are plenty of pro life orgs that are organized and do various things to advance the pro life cause with membership bases. You're presenting this as if expecting the pro life movement to somehow be any different to any other movement in america for no real reason. Do you really think there is no organization to people who are pro life? That out of all the causes in america pro life is unique that it truly needs no organizations to advocate for it?
The argument that there are plenty of organizations does not help your premise that they have a collective brand, rather than being an incoherent crowd.
Also I hang out with pretty much only pro choice people and none of them have any affiliation or membership with a pro choice group. Meanwhile I know a few lifetime NRA members. Pro life just isn’t that organized.
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No, there's nothing reasonable about that NY bill. It allows late term abortions not just when the mother's life is at risk, but also when the mother's health is at risk. The law doesn't even define when that is other than leaving it to the discretion of the physician. Considering that pregnancy always is a risk to the mother's health, there is now effectively no limit to late term abortion.
42 § 2599-bb. Abortion. 1. A health care practitioner licensed, certi-
43 fied, or authorized under title eight of the education law, acting with-
44 in his or her lawful scope of practice, may perform an abortion when,
45 according to the practitioner's reasonable and good faith professional
46 judgment based on the facts of the patient's case: the patient is within
47 twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an
48 absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the
49 patient's life or health.
The bill.
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On February 27 2019 03:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 03:08 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 03:01 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:58 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:52 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:49 Sermokala wrote:On February 27 2019 02:33 KwarK wrote:On February 27 2019 02:30 Sermokala wrote:
There is a pro-chocie movment in the US. Its the counter to the pro life movement. This is basic shit p6. How many pro choice bumper stickers or billboards do you see? How many radio ads do you hear? I see a pro life movement and a bunch of people who are individually pro choice. I wouldn’t call pro choice a movement. xDaunt’s characterization of them as a crowd makes more sense to me. I do see pro choice bumper stickers around actualy. But its so pendantic to not classify pro-choice as "just a group of people" Its a political movment that has 501c3 orgs promoting it as well as PAC's politicians that brand themselves as pro-life. What would it take for it to be a movment to you? A coherent and organized set of policy goals that are subscribed to by a formalized membership base would be a start. Right now it’s not even clear what someone means if they say they’re pro choice in terms of the criteria in which they’d permit abortions. Then theres no gun control movement because no one agrees on what exactly to control or how much. There's no civil rights movement and never was. theres no pro life movement either I guess. No anti gun control movement as well. No religious freedom movement or gay rights movement. So basically there are no political movements in America and there have never been. Good to know. The NRA exists lol. Pro Life America exists. There are plenty of movements that have organized structures and membership bases. You’re presenting this as if expecting an organized movement to have organization is an absurd bar to pass, when really it’s the minimum achieved by most political movements. Planned parenthood exists. National right to life exists. There are plenty of pro life orgs that are organized and do various things to advance the pro life cause with membership bases. You're presenting this as if expecting the pro life movement to somehow be any different to any other movement in america for no real reason. Do you really think there is no organization to people who are pro life? That out of all the causes in america pro life is unique that it truly needs no organizations to advocate for it? The argument that there are plenty of organizations does not help your premise that they have a collective brand, rather than being an incoherent crowd.
They have a collective brand beacuse they are apart of the same vauge politiical movment. You are the one thats trying to argue that there is no pro choice movment.
And yes I did acidentaly slip in pro life and a pro life organiation. That was my mistake and I tried to edit it in time to fix it.
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This isn't a hard concept to understand. All the people who call themselves pro-life do not hold the exact same opinions. The label is adopted by choice and does not prescribe the exact views of those who identify as pro-life. The same applies to pro-choice.
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United States41991 Posts
On February 27 2019 03:15 xDaunt wrote:
No, there's nothing reasonable about that NY bill. It allows late term abortions not just when the mother's life is at risk, but also when the mother's health is at risk. The law doesn't even define when that is other than leaving it to the discretion of the physician. Considering that pregnancy always is a risk to the mother's health, there is now effectively no limit to late term abortion.
Just think of all the straw pregnant women who will use this loophole to have frivolous abortions with the help of their straw doctors. Won’t somebody think of the straw babies!
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On February 27 2019 03:15 xDaunt wrote:No, there's nothing reasonable about that NY bill. It allows late term abortions not just when the mother's life is at risk, but also when the mother's health is at risk. The law doesn't even define when that is other than leaving it to the discretion of the physician. Considering that pregnancy always is a risk to the mother's health, there is now effectively no limit to late term abortion. Show nested quote + 42 § 2599-bb. Abortion. 1. A health care practitioner licensed, certi-
43 fied, or authorized under title eight of the education law, acting with-
44 in his or her lawful scope of practice, may perform an abortion when,
45 according to the practitioner's reasonable and good faith professional
46 judgment based on the facts of the patient's case: the patient is within
47 twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an
48 absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the
49 patient's life or health. The bill.
I find your reading of this law to be pretty suspect. It says they need a doctor to certify the pregnancy is a risk to the mothers health or life. So unless doctors are going to be handing those out like medical marijuanas cards in CA, it seems like those are some pretty real restrictions.
On February 27 2019 03:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 03:15 xDaunt wrote:
No, there's nothing reasonable about that NY bill. It allows late term abortions not just when the mother's life is at risk, but also when the mother's health is at risk. The law doesn't even define when that is other than leaving it to the discretion of the physician. Considering that pregnancy always is a risk to the mother's health, there is now effectively no limit to late term abortion. Just think of all the straw pregnant women who will use this loophole to have frivolous abortions with the help of their straw doctors. Won’t somebody think of the straw babies!
Those frivolously women who carry a baby for 6 months before deciding they don't want the baby now have a clear path to get an abortion. All they need is a doctor who does't give a shit and doesn't care about his medical license at all. Before this law, it was literally impossible for them to stop that baby from being born. Now those babies are doomed. All of these things are real and not complete fabrication of things that rarely happen in the real world.
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On February 27 2019 03:15 xDaunt wrote:No, there's nothing reasonable about that NY bill. It allows late term abortions not just when the mother's life is at risk, but also when the mother's health is at risk. The law doesn't even define when that is other than leaving it to the discretion of the physician. Considering that pregnancy always is a risk to the mother's health, there is now effectively no limit to late term abortion. Show nested quote + 42 § 2599-bb. Abortion. 1. A health care practitioner licensed, certi-
43 fied, or authorized under title eight of the education law, acting with-
44 in his or her lawful scope of practice, may perform an abortion when,
45 according to the practitioner's reasonable and good faith professional
46 judgment based on the facts of the patient's case: the patient is within
47 twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an
48 absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the
49 patient's life or health. The bill.
The way I see it this isn't about letting women have frivolous late term abortions just because they feel a bit under the weather, it's for cases where not having an abortion would e.g. leave a woman crippled or with serious complications. Reading it like it's to allow for unlimited abortions is stupid.
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On February 27 2019 03:16 Plansix wrote:
This isn't a hard concept to understand. All the people who call themselves pro-life do not hold the exact same opinions. The label is adopted by choice and does not prescribe the exact views of those who identify as pro-life. The same applies to pro-choice.
Yes but it is equally easy to understand that the public image of a movement is affected by the actions of these various organizations. That to classify this public image to be equal to a brand isn't a great leap or at the lest undeniable that its similar to some degree.
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iirc there's like 2 doctors in the US or something who will actually perform a super late term abortion. there used to be one more, but he got murdered by some pro life nut.
so, even if the law doesn't specifically restrict the reasons for a late term abortion, it's goddamn difficult from a practical level- not to mention how heartwrenching of a decision it is in the first place - to get one.
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On February 27 2019 03:25 PoulsenB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 03:15 xDaunt wrote:No, there's nothing reasonable about that NY bill. It allows late term abortions not just when the mother's life is at risk, but also when the mother's health is at risk. The law doesn't even define when that is other than leaving it to the discretion of the physician. Considering that pregnancy always is a risk to the mother's health, there is now effectively no limit to late term abortion. 42 § 2599-bb. Abortion. 1. A health care practitioner licensed, certi-
43 fied, or authorized under title eight of the education law, acting with-
44 in his or her lawful scope of practice, may perform an abortion when,
45 according to the practitioner's reasonable and good faith professional
46 judgment based on the facts of the patient's case: the patient is within
47 twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an
48 absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the
49 patient's life or health. The bill. The way I see it this isn't about letting women have frivolous late term abortions just because they feel a bit under the weather, it's for cases where not having an abortion would e.g. leave a woman crippled or with serious complications. Reading it like it's to allow for unlimited abortions is stupid.
The words used in these statutes matter. The law doesn't say "serious complications" or "crippled." It says "health," and it leaves interpretation up to the health care provider.
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On February 27 2019 03:29 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2019 03:16 Plansix wrote:
This isn't a hard concept to understand. All the people who call themselves pro-life do not hold the exact same opinions. The label is adopted by choice and does not prescribe the exact views of those who identify as pro-life. The same applies to pro-choice. Yes but it is equally easy to understand that the public image of a movement is affected by the actions of these various organizations. That to classify this public image to be equal to a brand isn't a great leap or at the lest undeniable that its similar to some degree.
I called it lazy and I stand by that assessment. If you are going to come to me to discuss policy or a specific political movement or group, don’t paint with a broad brush. There is a reason I refer to the NRA leadership, as opposed to just the NRA at large. I try to keep my criticism congress to the conservatives members of congress, rather than conservatives at large.
We would be better served discussing the law itself rather than the vague pro-life national brand and polling that jumps 14 points in a single month.
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On February 27 2019 03:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
iirc there's like 2 doctors in the US or something who will actually perform a super late term abortion. there used to be one more, but he got murdered by some pro life nut.
so, even if the law doesn't specifically restrict the reasons for a late term abortion, it's goddamn difficult from a practical level- not to mention how heartwrenching of a decision it is in the first place - to get one.
Don't let facts and reality get in the way of a good narrative. This law doesn't' put enough restrictions on the late term abortion that 99% of women in the US don't have access to anyways.
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I agree at the least with that.
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EPT
