EPTBut the most insufferable people in discussion after the horror are the people who try to show off how much they know about Salafi jihadism and takfiri Islamism and how we need to be harder on those guys. What are they trying to do? Impress someone at a potential cheese and wine gathering? Deconstructing the ideology is certainly fascinating, but understanding the tenets of every tendency within Islamism is not going to give us a clear lenses of the terrorist attack.
Terror attack in the French city of Nice - Page 7
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Once again, as this is a sensitive topic and one that can cause a lot of unnecessary things to be said in the heat of the moment, be VERY careful about what you post. Think twice before actually stating something and please be considerate of anyone who may feel involved or affected. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
But the most insufferable people in discussion after the horror are the people who try to show off how much they know about Salafi jihadism and takfiri Islamism and how we need to be harder on those guys. What are they trying to do? Impress someone at a potential cheese and wine gathering? Deconstructing the ideology is certainly fascinating, but understanding the tenets of every tendency within Islamism is not going to give us a clear lenses of the terrorist attack. | ||
KwarK
United States42611 Posts
On July 15 2016 15:21 zeo wrote: Good job Hollande, everything can be fixed by upping security after the fact and doing nothing about the problem beforehand. What a truely great leader. All of the emergency powers and procedures from the Paris attacks are still already in force. Don't say such stupid things. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12165 Posts
On July 15 2016 15:52 Shiragaku wrote: Okay, I'm sorry, but I am actually surprised there have not been more terrorist attacks and frankly, this is nothing unusual. The same fucking thing is going to happen, the liberals and anti-racists will spew the same shit we hear and the nationalists and right-wing populists will once again play the game of "I told you so" and pretend to know what the true nature of Islam is. But the most insufferable people in discussion after the horror are the people who try to show off how much they know about Salafi jihadism and takfiri Islamism and how we need to be harder on those guys. What are they trying to do? Impress someone at a potential cheese and wine gathering? Deconstructing the ideology is certainly fascinating, but understanding the tenets of every tendency within Islamism is not going to give us a clear lenses of the terrorist attack. Luckily you're here to regulate... | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On July 15 2016 15:50 Incognoto wrote: I dunno, I'm not on social media. I just got up this morning and everyone in my family hates Hollande so I can't really talk about that. People at my workplace haven't spoken a word about it yet, I guess we don't really talk about that here. Personally though, Hollande really deserves prison. Out, out with him. I've changed channels every time I saw his shitty fat fucking face on television and I'm going to listen to whatever fucking Obama or Merkel have to say really. Those are who I want to hear from. Hollande can stick an AK-47 up his ass And what is the sentiment to the immigrants? Is right-wing on the rise there? | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On July 15 2016 16:08 NukeD wrote: And what is the sentiment to the immigrants? Is right-wing on the rise there? Well again, stats shows that extreme right-wing (since there's nothing wrong with right-wing.. lol) is indeed on the rise. But I don't personally see it. Right now I'm living in Brittany, which is hardly where you really see these sort of movements take place since, well to be quite frank, there aren't really a lot of immigrants or muslims around here. During the time I spent in suburban Paris for studies, most of us were from Africa (North or Central) with a few French people as well. So it's kind of also hard to talk about anti-immigration there either. They're all perfectly fine folks too, though I do remember one heated discussion about politics in Côte d'Ivoire. I have not really seen people first-hand talking about badly about immigration, but perhaps I'm not really ever in places where such talk takes place in the first place. Perhaps that also has to do with me being young. Or maybe people aren't disposed to talk shit about immigrants in public? Beats me. Not sure what else there is to say. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Beyond raising security at critical spots (logistically tough because there are a shitton of potential targets anywhere), they need some high quality data. Scouring the Twitterverse for terrorist plots, finding social media accounts that are associated with terror groups, tracking suspected terrorists, planting moles within militant movements, etc. Also using whatever mass surveillance methods they have available, preferably with international support. There's more to it than that, but a lot of the rest is rather unpleasant from a human rights perspective. Of course, a few terrorists will get through because no intelligence agency is without its fuckups, and unfortunately no one seems to notice until after terrorism occurs (the US had a significant intelligence overhaul after 9/11 because of significant structural weaknesses; it has a much stronger anti-terror intelligence now). Also, right now seems to be a particularly dangerous time with quite a few terrorist attacks, but nevertheless France seems to be taking a disproportionate number of them. Sounds like the French had discovered quite a few flaws in their intelligence services, and that contributes a lot to terrorists being able to plan an attack without getting caught. | ||
zatic
Zurich15325 Posts
On July 15 2016 16:25 Incognoto wrote: Well again, stats shows that extreme right-wing (since there's nothing wrong with right-wing.. lol) is indeed on the rise. But I don't personally see it. Right now I'm living in Brittany, which is hardly where you really see these sort of movements take place since, well to be quite frank, there aren't really a lot of immigrants or muslims around here. Serious question: Is this really how it is in France? Over here it's the other way around: The less heterogeneous the location, the more xenophobic. The areas of Germany with the least amount of immigrants are the loudest in opposing immigration and are the strongholds of the extreme right (and, to an extend, the extreme left as well). | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On July 15 2016 16:39 zatic wrote: Serious question: Is this really how it is in France? Over here it's the other way around: The less heterogeneous the location, the more xenophobic. The areas of Germany with the least amount of immigrants are the loudest in opposing immigration and are the strongholds of the extreme right (and, to an extend, the extreme left as well). Yeah, I've heard that that's how it's supposed to be. I dunno, maybe it's because it's a workplace or something (I don't go out a lot) but I swear, no one really talks about immigration. Most of the frustration I've heard about was the government's economic policies. Immigrants? I really don't hear anything about it. I think that Brittany is actually quite left on the political spectrum (unfortunately) and that's why around here you don't get that sort of talk: http://www.midilibre.fr/images/2015/11/28/1249537_036_sondage_800x800p.jpg?v=1 http://www.ouest-france.fr/elections/regionales/sondage-des-triangulaires-partout-le-fn-bien-place-en-normandie-3875241 Notice Northern France, that's where the FN (extreme right wing) is historically strong. I dunno how many immigrants there are there. Immigrants are, I believe, principally in Parisian region, Auvergne Rhone-Alps and I'm guessing Languedoc-Roussillon. | ||
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tenacity
1587 Posts
This is the nightmare of every intelligence service - having an individual with only a petty crime record but w/o any affiliation to radical groups. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
- 84 Dead. - 18 Wounded in critical state. - 54 Children wounded in the hospital. - Driver confirmed shot by the police - Driver had a hangun and fired at the police. - Grenades and "long weapons" were fake ones. - Truck was rented four day ago by a French-Tunisian of 31 yo. - Urgency stat is prolonged for 3 month - No revendication, no name, but governament talks about "islamic terrorism". - Blood donation are good, if you are in the area do not go donate your blood they have enough. - Report violent content/ words etc at https://www.internet-signalement.gouv.fr/PortailWeb/planets/Accueil!input.action | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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Nyan
Germany1931 Posts
I wonder with what retarded measures they are going to come up with. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Anyway, I am almost surprised that this method of attack isn't used more often, driving a truck into a crowd is extremely effective and doesn't even require any explosive or other attention-provoking activities in advance, just steal a truck and go. To date, the largest killing in Czech history was actually done by a woman who drove a truck into a tram stop full of people. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On July 15 2016 17:28 Nyan wrote: Every rational thinking person will know that nothing can be done to prevent a killing like this. I wonder with what retarded measures they are going to come up with. There are things that can be done to prevent the proliferation of the ideology that causes such attacks- completely cut off all funding from gulf countries towards mosques in Europe that encourage extremism, but for economic reasons it won't be done. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7886 Posts
On July 15 2016 17:43 tomatriedes wrote: There are things that can be done to prevent the proliferation of the ideology that causes such attacks- completely cut off all funding from gulf countries towards mosques in Europe that encourage extremism, but for economic reasons it won't be done. Inversely, you could promote and fund tolerant, peaceful and open minded islam. That won't be done for political reason and because of our concept of laicité in which state and religion never mingle. The Paris mosque is a remarkable example of what a successful muslim religious institution can be like. But it's a bit unique, and no one shows any interest in financing similar places. That being said it is proven and documented that the french jihadi are not radicalized in mosques but rather on the internet and that there are very little bridges between salafists and ISIS style terrorists. Not saying that salafism is not a problem, it certainly is, but it is a different one. It is important to understand that terrorists of the last years in France are religiously completely illiterate : Salah Abdelsam admitted to his lawyer that he had never hold a Qoran in his hands and never read a line of it, only had read about it on the net. They are generally in rupture with their muslim community, and were often not or very little religious before being recruited by ISIS. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18398 Posts
On July 15 2016 18:14 Biff The Understudy wrote: Inversely, you could promote and fund tolerant, peaceful and open minded islam. That won't be done for political reason and because of our concept of laicité in which state and religion never mingle. The Paris mosque is a remarkable example of what a successful muslim religious institution can be like. But it's a bit unique, and no one shows any interest in financing similar places. That being said it is proven and documented that the french jihadi are not radicalized in mosques but rather on the internet and that there are very little bridges between salafists and ISIS style terrorists. Not saying that salafism is not a problem, it certainly is, but it is a different one. It is important to understand that terrorists of the last years in France are religiously completely illiterate : Salah Abdelsam admitted to his lawyer that he had never hold a Qoran in his hands and never read a line of it, only had read about it on the net. They are generally in rupture with their muslim community, and were often not or very little religious before being recruited by ISIS. One of the biggest problem was that while they are in rupture with their muslim community, the muslim community dont report them to the authorities and rather look away. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7886 Posts
On July 15 2016 16:39 zatic wrote: Serious question: Is this really how it is in France? Over here it's the other way around: The less heterogeneous the location, the more xenophobic. The areas of Germany with the least amount of immigrants are the loudest in opposing immigration and are the strongholds of the extreme right (and, to an extend, the extreme left as well). It's a universal phenomenon. In Paris the Front National made a miserable 6,12% in the last presidential election. In Meuse, an extremely rural departement where my parents live, and where I have never seen an arab and know a grand total of one black guy (that everyone likes), Le Pen did 25,82. In my village, out of 100 voters, 40 voted FN at the last european election. I am certain that most of them have never even seen a muslim in their life. http://www.interieur.gouv.fr/Elections/Les-resultats/Presidentielles/elecresult__PR2012/(path)/PR2012/041/055/index.html Of course the best vaccine against racism is to personally mingle and know black / arab / muslim people, and realized they are just like you. Just as the best remedy against homophobia is to have gay people in your entourage. The most cosmopolitan and heterogenous the place, the least the far right ideas resonate, because they are seen for what they are. I think people in the north districts of Paris know very well that muslims are not dangerous and dishonest and not working and against us etc etc etc as Le Pen claims. Generally the FN does well in rural areas, former industrial areas with high unemployment, in the South East (our own version of Florida) which has a huge number of retired people, and in Alsace, a historically conservative stronghold. In medium cities, the only place it has really ever succeeded is Toulon, which is the siege of our military marine, and full of officers and families of officers, overwhelmingly catholic and among the most conservative and reactionary demographic. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7886 Posts
On July 15 2016 18:19 sharkie wrote: One of the biggest problem was that while they are in rupture with their muslim community, the muslim community dont report them to the authorities and rather look away. I have sincerely no idea if what you are saying is right. Can you provide a serious and reliable source about French terrorism saying that? We are talking fact, so if that's the case it must be documented by the police. Otherwise, please don't throw populist speculation, because that's simply offensive. | ||
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DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
On July 15 2016 18:14 Biff The Understudy wrote: Inversely, you could promote and fund tolerant, peaceful and open minded islam. Even the most tolerant, peaceful and open minded Islam that actually exists in this world, is fascist, belligerent and narrow-minded by secular standards. Why not promote and fund secularism and the ideas and ideals that made France the spearhead of enlightenment and Western civilization in the first place? | ||
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