Shootings and Casualties in Central Paris - Page 62

On November 15 2015 04:29 Saumure wrote:
Easy to say when you have the Atlantic in between

On November 15 2015 04:33 Saumure wrote:

Just in on lefigaro.fr


Tlrd: Two migrants that came through Greece are possible suspects.

On November 15 2015 04:35 Aluminumtribromide wrote:


And one of of the attackers was a native 29 year old french guy.

On November 15 2015 04:36 mdb wrote:


What is his name?

On November 15 2015 04:33 las91 wrote:


You use big words but don't seem to know what they mean nor how they can be adjoined to actually create a coherent thought.

To the French posters, how large actually was the anti-immigration movement in France before yesterday?

On November 15 2015 04:28 Djzapz wrote:

The discussion does not need to be framed around Islam, it needs to understand that it is one important concept. The people who are indoctrinated to ISIS often (not always) have some prior understanding of Islam which allows them to integrate ISIS's crazy stuff to their own beliefs. Much like Christianity can be used to be homophobic, it's a platform on which bad shit can be added. Is this not possible to discuss?

Perhaps a lot of Christians are fine with homosexuality, and yet that doesn't mean one cannot point at the correlation and say "there is something here". Something about Christianity preemptively supports the negative vision of homosexuality, right? Which takes absolutely nothing away from Christians who do NOT adhere to this vision, but there is a correlation (which does not imply causation) which NEEDS to be explored if we want to understand this phenomenon, right?

And so belief and ideology are a problem, they are at the very least something to explore and something to try to understand! To say "blame the individuals" seems to make sense until you understand that these phenomenons are not simple freak cases, they're part of a larger context which, of course, is not all religious - it's social and cultural and it has roots in poverty and oppression. It's all these things. It's religion too. It's belief, too. It doesn't take anything away from Muslims who don't adhere to this, but to just say we should ignore part of it because it's uncomfortable is absolutely absurd, in my opinion.

I mean to point at another example, the Christian man who went to Africa to talk about how horrible homosexuality is which eventually led to Uganda adopting horrible anti-homosexuality laws, he had a religious baggage. It doesn't mean Christianity is all bad, it means that it plays a role in how this is articulated. There's even a clip that John Oliver showed in one of his shows, where a Ugandan woman says "at first it wasn't Adam and Eve, it was Adam and Steve". Does Christianity really have NOTHING to do with this hatred of homosexuals? Even if it did not, it would be insane to say it cannot be discussed, it cannot be studied. It would be absurd to say the issue is too contentious to be looked at. Why silence thought? And once again this shouldn't be viewed as an affront to Christianity. The problem is it's offensive because it seems like a way in which Christianity could be attacked, but I have no interest in that. It's just clearly a factor.

And so while I understand the defense and the complete denial that it could even possibly be a factor, I disagree. It's an argumentative strategy that I can understand, but it closes off important topics that need to be discussed and are not irrelevant.

On November 15 2015 04:12 Saumure wrote:

I am not an expert in white supremacy but e.g. the KKK was openly anti christian, as can be confirmed on wikipedia:

On November 15 2015 04:05 Djzapz wrote:

Let's take your example with White Supremacists, which we openly an legitimately hate. We can discuss the sources of their bullshit without being accused of anything. What does the WN stem from, what the problem is, what social issues we can try to tackle with which approaches and policies. Does the White Supremacist idea come from Christianity? Undoubtedly partially, you'll find that they're defending white christian values, family values and would probably try to spin it as a positive thing with those terms.

Can we argue that some of those ills stem from an interpretation of Christianity and other such things? There are probably grounds for that. The same can be said about Islam. The religion itself might be fine, but in many cases it comes with an ideology that I find to be reprehensible.

In both cases, you have to tiptoe around the debate, because people are so outrageously ticklish when it comes to religion that the overarching ideology and its effects can't be discussed thoroughly without everyone being extremely cautious.

"Now is not the time to talk about this. You're racist. You're bigoted." This debate is off limits because we've decided that. People are arguing that Islam has NOTHING to do with anything because most Muslims are good people. And I think that if we want to open the debate, we have to first weed out the people who are only interested in hate, first - and then the people who have a political incentive to try to derail the debate by putting blinders on and just arguing that there is no link at all between Islam and these actions.

From my perspective, this entire ordeal is one that needs to be tackled by smart people (unlike myself) who are willing to have the debate. Unfortunately, most of what comes out is the people who want violence on one hand, and the people who are so fed up with the people who want violence that they assume anybody who wants to discuss it has an ill intent. I don't think it's healthy. There is no other social debate in the world where you have a strong correlation where you have a correlation between a specific part Islam and terrorism, and the issue is so politically loaded that nobody can even talk about it.

To put it in exceptionally stupid terms, we have this issue here which is toxic, and the simple fact of pointing at it causes people to act as if it doesn't exist, because it's so fucking toxic that poking at it causes shit to happen. So what of those of us who want to talk about this??? I think it's important. To me it seems like there's this extremely discussion that needs to be had but IT'S HARD and everyone's avoiding it.



You and me both know that there's a highly complex problem. In my mind, you have to understand where it comes from to tackle it. If you continue to act as if one of its components cannot even be explored from an intellectual perspective, you're ensuring that the only option that will be available to tackle the issue, in people's minds, will always be violence, which has proven to be highly ineffective. You'll notice that right now it's the West's reaction. We'll do more violence... I think if we want to go beyond that, people need to fucking think, and that'll only be possible when we manage to evacuate the assholes who can only think in terms of hate, and the people who are so defensive they'll prevent the debate from taking place in the first place.

On November 15 2015 04:43 yamato77 wrote:

That's presupposing a causal relationship, which is simply not the case.

I'd argue that bigotry against homosexuals in the U.S. was inbuilt by the hetero-normative societal structure that obviously included Christian values, but was not caused by Christianity itself.

Alas, this is a stupid digression and has nothing to do with the attacks on Paris any longer. Debating the merits of religion is a poor way to understand what happened in Paris, and why groups like ISIS perpetuate violence.

I'd say anyone who wants to understand ISIS better should take a closer look at 20th century Middle-Eastern history, particularly the history of Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Understanding the cycles that have created groups like the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, and ISIS is important. Russia, the U.S. and Europe all played a role in the instability of the region that has led to its current state.

On November 15 2015 04:43 ZeromuS wrote:


Some basic screening will happen, and chances are they will provide them with temporary residence in Canada and put them in Camps here, on Forces bases. Then they will complete security screening and send back people they really can't trust and find some information which makes them ineligible for entry. Most of the 25,000 they want to bring before the end of the year will stay and will be given affordable housing across the country and some support in getting their lives started here.

On November 15 2015 04:51 Djzapz wrote:

To consider the possibility of a relation does not presuppose a causal relationship. You said it yourself, "hetero-normative societal structure that obviously included Christian values". To understand this phenomenon (which I don't), people have to consider Christian values and its influences, its dynamics - which, like I said, takes nothing away from Christians. But the ideology is there. If you want to understand the ideology, you need to consider this factor as part of the explanation. Or at the VERY LEAST, a potential part of the explanation that needs to be vetted before it's dismissed.

This is just an example to point out that Islam extremism cannot be understood if we're constantly told that it has nothing to do with Islam. You can't just take a sensitive component of a problem and just say "we have no clear causal link right now (having not looked at it closely), so we'll just not look at it at all, ever".