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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-18 16:52:54
February 18 2022 16:51 GMT
#1761



"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
February 18 2022 16:56 GMT
#1762
--- Nuked ---
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-18 16:58:24
February 18 2022 16:57 GMT
#1763
Things are getting very strange.



edit: Some of these Cops are heavily armed.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
February 18 2022 17:26 GMT
#1764
On February 19 2022 01:56 JimmiC wrote:
The other reality is it is not a requirment to be a Trucker at the Trucker rally. When I read about the "leadership" only one is. It is a smattering of anti vaxxers of all employement statuses. Before the blockade here in couts was lifted it was mostly farmers and farm workers who all left afyer the 14 were charged with guns and 4 with a plot to kill a RCMP officer. They have time right now because seeding has not started, in a few weeks it would have also ended because they would be bust again.


Coutts ended because people saw that they were basically lied to in some way about the actual purpose of the event. Shit got real when a militia group with ties to white supremacy as a core ideology turned out to be connected.

It also doesn't help that the emergency act has big scary financial consequences to boot. No wonder they left. It was a one two punch.

Also a not of clarification from earlier in the thread, the Emergency Act doesn't need to be voted on to be in force. It is immediately in force. It needs to be voted on to *stay* in force. The 7 days for a vote is to ensure that it is in force for as short a time as reasonably possible before it can have significant impacts. And it doesn't impact civil liberties at all under the Constitution. It simply greases the wheels of the courts and police to end things quicker, and allows for a possible invocation of the national defense act clauses.

But as it's written now, all they've done is remove some of the court procedure required for financial actions taken and they've curtailed *some* freedoms of movement and assembly in a super targetted way.

All this financial stuff is normally possible but requires significant investigation and then a court order to temporarily freeze accounts. They've significantly lowered the burden of proof element but there is still a burden of proof requirement. And the accounts aren't gone, only temporarily held. And it's likely that there are risk measures in place for banks too, so a 50$ supporter is likely not gonna get bopped, but a 20k supporter would. Same with the organizers and leaders and those who acted as money mules for funds supporting the encampments in Ottawa.

The act has also allowed the checkpoints to go up downtown Ottawa for example, and would allow for similar checkpoints to exist near border crossings if plans get made for more border blockages in the short term.

People can still go protest something *other* than the freedom convoy stuff in Ottawa. But due to police activity in the area the checkpoints limit who can cross them in an effort to prevent further growth of convoy protest participation. Without the EA marking that area as a secured zone, they'd have to let people and trucks in and out.

Unlike Canada Day where the security checks exist to screen access, these are about limiting access. Which normally not legal. And for people with legitimate reasons to access the area, they retain their freedom of movement for example.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13953 Posts
February 18 2022 19:05 GMT
#1765


I don't think I've seen a police action like this in the snow before. Protests usually happen in the summer for a reason.



Looks like they're seriously going to clear them out now.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 18 2022 19:09 GMT
#1766
The Cops are moving forward now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DBoyFkBWz4
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
February 18 2022 19:25 GMT
#1767
--- Nuked ---
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 18 2022 21:07 GMT
#1768

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16711 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-19 03:24:34
February 19 2022 02:53 GMT
#1769
On February 18 2022 04:41 Sermokala wrote:
Its bizzare to see someone saying it would be the right move to negotiate with terrorists that have nothing to negotiate for.

The difference between the Mohawks were arguing over basic treaties that they had the mistake of believing that the government would adhere to. These dregs of society have openly stated they hate the other people in their country and want them to die. They're protesting basic health standards that everyone has been okay with for decades. The only thing that would appease them is to endanger the public health by ignoring the successful plans that have resulted in the objectively better situation that Canada finds itself in.

Rolling out the military like he should have presumed that the local government didn't want these protests to succeed. The difference between Otawa and the rest of canada+the world is that the police actually did their job and refused to allow these terrorists to dig themselves in.

If there was something that you could reference to support your position you would cite the OWS protests. But even in that case we learned how meaningless peaceful protests are for the left.



On February 18 2022 04:41 Sermokala wrote:
Its bizzare to see someone saying it would be the right move to negotiate with terrorists that have nothing to negotiate for.

you do what Premier Ford did. Ford , Torey , and the Toronto Police Service did a nice job protecting Toronto. Trudeau and the Ottawa cops have fucked Ottawa into the ground.

The Mohawk blockade was declared illegal and the Mohawks are still not unified in their messaging. Trudeau had the Feds talk to them any way.

You either talk or crush it. You don't sit around and do nothing. When you do nothing... we are now seeing what you get.

Trudeau will wear this one. OTOH, his dad faced much worse and he galvanized the country.

As stated in the poll JimmiC posted 44% of Canadians believe Trudeau's actions inflammed the protests. I agree. 38% do not think Trudeau made the protests worse.

"A majority of Canadians (52%) believe that their country is beyond broken – that it’s just
not viable in the way it is currently constituted and being governed. "
https://www.marugroup.net/public-opinion-polls/canada/shaken-to-the-core

Trudeau has been running the country for 7 years. This is on him.
On February 19 2022 04:25 JimmiC wrote:
In general I think people should have the mind set of "If there are horrible people here (white supremists, facists, neo nazis or whatever) why do I agree with them, maybe I should rethink my position".

the problem with Canada is not hate groups. The problem with Canada is a lack of economic opportunity.

https://www.conexusmedstaff.com/blog/2019/09/why-are-so-many-canadian-nurses-moving-to-the-us
https://brocku.ca/brock-news/2018/05/brain-drain-study-shows-many-science-and-tech-grads-heading-to-u-s-for-work/

On February 18 2022 04:41 Sermokala wrote:
These dregs of society have openly stated they hate the other people in their country and want them to die. They're protesting basic health standards that everyone has been okay with for decades. The only thing that would appease them is to endanger the public health by ignoring the successful plans that have resulted in the objectively better situation that Canada finds itself in.

Ford had a nice speech for them. Trudeau should've done something similar.
In general, Ford did a better job than Trudeau.
Here is some of Ford's address to the Truckers.
https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2022/01/31/that-has-no-place-in-ontario-or-canada-doug-ford-denounces-protesting-truckers.html

Also, I would not paint them all with the same brush. I would appeal to the reasonable members of the group... as Ford did.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-19 03:25:57
February 19 2022 03:25 GMT
#1770

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11350 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-19 08:12:06
February 19 2022 07:32 GMT
#1771
@falling, first truckers are not specifically mandated for vaccination, its crossing the boarder and returning that is for everyone.

Which is itself a relatively new regulation, which should be retracted. But being that a border crossing trucker's job is to cross the border, it's much the same. Again, where's the evidence that truckers are over and above the the rest of the population a great danger of spreading Covid? (Follow the Science and all that.)

Second Truckers are specifically mandated on how much they can drive and now are required by law to only drive for a certain amount of hours and it is tracked electronically. That effected EVERY trucker, not just the ignorant ones scared of science and where was your made up outrage?

Are you guys really completely unaware of all the health and safety rules that basically all non white collar jobs are subject too? Holy shit.

The fact that we have regulation does not provide in and of itself justification for any and all regulation that can be dreamed up. Each regulation requires its own justification. Justifying regulation with 'well, we have this other regulation' is evidence of an arbitrary and capricious government, not 'Following the Science'. And this one is particularly invasive as the government is requiring you to put something in your body or you cannot work in an ever expanding number of jobs. Regulation on the number of hours to drive is a limitation on doing too much- an action. Whereas with this one, you must simply exist. To be born and to be is all that is required to receive punitive action backed by the power of the state- to limit where you can work. This is unprecedented no matter how many times people try to collapse categories with false equivocations.

Show evidence that the truckers are a specific threat to spreading Covid without the 8% not vaccinated, whereas they are not a threat if we get that final 8% vaccinated or drummed out of their job. You can't though because the virus is already in Canada and it has morphed too much for any of the current vaccination to stop the spread. The whole 'Vaccinate to save others' might have been true half a year ago, but no longer. Now it's the personal risk, and if a forty year old wants to risk flooding their lungs, fine- their choice. Omicron's got a better track record of survival/ hospitalization anyways.



If this low bar to use Emergency Measures is let to stand, I predict we'll be seeing it used against pipeline blockades and G20 protests which are actually violent (torched police cars and mass vandalism and arson.) That is unless future governments are more principled than this one. Heck, we just had some pipeline protestors attack with axes and attempt to set vehicles on fire with workers still in them. I don't even really agree with the War Measures Act in the FLQ crisis (though I could be swayed). Here? Here, we are a far cry from anything of the sort, despite all the hyper ventilating about our Russian funded January 6th. Mercenaries, Insurrection, Siege, Occupation, 'that's what we do with terrorist organizations', have I missed any militaristic hyperbole? Wild eyed assertions = Truth by our benighted media and government.


In general I think people should have the mind set of "If there are horrible people here (white supremists, facists, neo nazis or whatever) why do I agree with them, maybe I should rethink my position".

Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy.

All A believe B
You believe B
Therefore you are a part of A.

All white supremacist support divesting and defunding Israel.
The Pro-Palestine movement supports divesting and defunding Israel.
Therefore, the Pro-Palestine movement is white supremacist.

Or to show in the absurd.
All Nazis hated impressionist art and enjoyed realist art.
You hate impressionist art and enjoy realist art.
Therefore, you are a Nazi.

You cannot account for all the different reasons a hateful group might happen to support a particular position (and often for very different reasons). If it's not intrinsic to what makes their ideology awful (racial superiority, Hitler did nothing wrong, Jewish conspiracy theories, etc) then you cannot throw out a position simply because the Nazis also happen to like classical music.

What's the alternative? Nazis supposedly oppose vaccine mandates, so we should have vaccine mandates and passports forever and ever lest we accidentally support a pro-Nazi position?

These dregs of society have openly stated they hate the other people in their country and want them to die.

Who in the world are you listening too? I've watched a lot of live streams and a lot of the organizer's press conferences. Never have I heard anything even remotely approaching this- quite the opposite in fact.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Salazarz
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Korea (South)2591 Posts
February 19 2022 10:15 GMT
#1772
You can come up with a ridiculous comparison to make pretty much any argument look like a fallacy. Folks attending an event organized / supported by baddies of some sort doesn't necessarily mean they are the same sort of baddies -- but it should make you wonder, why do it, nonetheless. I would be inclined to agree with you if the only argument against folks going to this rally was that, 'well some nazis went there, too' -- but the links between far right and these protests are significantly deeper than that, at least as far as I can tell.

Your examples of Israel & art are completely nonsensical. Enjoying the same sort of art or having the same kind of views on a specific issue is not even remotely the same as physically being present at a protest. Neither of your examples have an active component so really, they're an entirely different thing.

Likewise, you trying to explain the protests away by how the restrictions on truckers aren't logical at this point is also nonsensical. It doesn't actually matter whether their reason for protesting is valid or not -- the way they are protesting is harming and endangering people and has to stop, simple as that. Like, if I were to protest against weapon sales and support of war in Yemen by, I don't know, torching kindergartens, I don't think there'd be too many people lining up justify that by how the war is an atrocity and thus my actions are justified, so I'm not sure why you think the supposed validity of the truckers' cause somehow justifies what they are doing.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
February 19 2022 19:21 GMT
#1773
--- Nuked ---
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11350 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-19 22:35:21
February 19 2022 22:30 GMT
#1774
Personal incredulity does not make an illogical argument, logical.

The flag was there exactly one day when the protest was at its most chaotic and before the protest would have have had a chance to self-police. The flag was not at the centre of the protest but on the edge where they could duck in and out. One money shot, the same money shot is what gets circulated again and again.
Notice there have been zero flags since.
https://maybury.ca/the-reformed-physicist/2022/02/03/a-night-with-the-untouchables/

As the night wore on and the rain turned to snow, those conversations repeated themselves. The man from Newfoundland with his bullmastiff, a young couple from British Columbia, the group from Winnipeg that together form what they call “Manitoba Corner ” all of them with similar stories. At Manitoba Corner a boisterous heavily tattooed man spoke to me from the cab of his dually pickup truck – a man who had a look that would have fit right in on the set of some motorcycle movie – pointed out that there are no symbols of hate in the convoy. He said, “Yes there was some clown with a Nazi flag on the weekend, and we don’t know where he’s from, but I’ll tell you what, if we see anyone with a Nazi flag or a Confederate flag, we’ll kick his fucking teeth in. No one’s a Nazi here.” Manitoba Corner all gave a shout out to that.


Guess what. Nazi flags show up at pro-Palestine rallies too (also in Ontario).


We are not gods that we can prevent every Nazi flag that walks through the periphery of a protest. We can prevent the persistence of those flags. Which is exactly what we've seen. Not a whiff of those flags after the chaos of the first day. But somehow the whole movement is forever a Nazi uprising by one walkthrough by someone who they do not know and have never seen again.

The standard seems to be if you cannot control 100% of the time exactly who show up at your grassroots protest, the whole thing can be tossed:

Those of us who cut our teeth in the 1980s peace movement know this pattern well. The Vancouver Peace March once attracted as much as 10 percent of the city’s population (50,000 protesters at its peak) for an annual walk across Burrard Bridge to support global nuclear disarmament. The vanguard of the march comprised the Trotskyites, Maoists, and other communist sectarians and foreign-dictator enthusiasts, who saw this as their big annual opportunity to radicalize and recruit ordinary anti-nuclear activists.

Right-wing commentators sought to discredit these protests by heavily featuring and platforming the most off-topic or radical protesters, and then seeking to paint all protesters with that broad brush. This approach generally failed, and was mocked by the mainstream press, which depicted the diversity of protesters and homemade signs as a sign of the depth of the movement’s support.

But in the case of the truckers, that hatchet-job approach is working, because our society’s values have changed, and because the target audience is different.
...

What I am really trying to do is sound a cultural alarm bell about the exaltation of order, discipline, and control. These are authoritarian impulses. In a nation where rapid change is not just a moral necessity, but an ecological one, we must not only retain the capacity for mass mobilization, but also the ability to properly recognize and resist actual authoritarian forces, irrespective of whether they fly under progressive or conservative banners.

Stuart Parker
https://quillette.com/2022/02/02/smearing-a-whole-protest-movement-as-fascistic-will-come-back-to-haunt-the-grass-roots-canadian-left/
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-19 22:37:20
February 19 2022 22:35 GMT
#1775
--- Nuked ---
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11350 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-19 22:41:24
February 19 2022 22:37 GMT
#1776
Which they have.
One of their main speakers, BJ Dichter is Jewish and has clearly stated that those flags have nothing to do with the protest. The Manitoba Corner wanted to beat up the Nazi flag guy. I don't know how you can get more anti-Nazi than that.

Of course if the had beat up the guy carrying the Nazi flag, I'm sure the news headline would be as follows:

Violent truckers have Nazis in their midst.
(All technically true, but clearly misleading as it fails to mention that it was the truckers throwing out the Nazi .)
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10522 Posts
February 19 2022 22:55 GMT
#1777
On February 19 2022 19:15 Salazarz wrote:
You can come up with a ridiculous comparison to make pretty much any argument look like a fallacy. Folks attending an event organized / supported by baddies of some sort doesn't necessarily mean they are the same sort of baddies -- but it should make you wonder, why do it, nonetheless. I would be inclined to agree with you if the only argument against folks going to this rally was that, 'well some nazis went there, too' -- but the links between far right and these protests are significantly deeper than that, at least as far as I can tell.

Your examples of Israel & art are completely nonsensical. Enjoying the same sort of art or having the same kind of views on a specific issue is not even remotely the same as physically being present at a protest. Neither of your examples have an active component so really, they're an entirely different thing.

Likewise, you trying to explain the protests away by how the restrictions on truckers aren't logical at this point is also nonsensical. It doesn't actually matter whether their reason for protesting is valid or not -- the way they are protesting is harming and endangering people and has to stop, simple as that. Like, if I were to protest against weapon sales and support of war in Yemen by, I don't know, torching kindergartens, I don't think there'd be too many people lining up justify that by how the war is an atrocity and thus my actions are justified, so I'm not sure why you think the supposed validity of the truckers' cause somehow justifies what they are doing.


Falling was responding to someone that said the protestors don't have a legitimate reason to protest. If you think the position of the truckers is completely moot to the conversation then perhaps you should have addressed that to the person that Falling was responding to instead of accusing him of "explaining away the protests."

1. The truckers don't have a legit reason to protest because ABC
2. I disagree, the truckers do have a legit reason because XYZ
3. It doesn't matter if their reason is valid or not, their methods are the issue.

When someone challenges 1, you just hide behind 3. A little cowardly, but effective. I think most people would agree that if 1 was actually a good point you'd just defend it instead of shifting to 3.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-19 23:30:11
February 19 2022 23:27 GMT
#1778
--- Nuked ---
Salazarz
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Korea (South)2591 Posts
February 20 2022 01:20 GMT
#1779
On February 20 2022 07:55 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2022 19:15 Salazarz wrote:
You can come up with a ridiculous comparison to make pretty much any argument look like a fallacy. Folks attending an event organized / supported by baddies of some sort doesn't necessarily mean they are the same sort of baddies -- but it should make you wonder, why do it, nonetheless. I would be inclined to agree with you if the only argument against folks going to this rally was that, 'well some nazis went there, too' -- but the links between far right and these protests are significantly deeper than that, at least as far as I can tell.

Your examples of Israel & art are completely nonsensical. Enjoying the same sort of art or having the same kind of views on a specific issue is not even remotely the same as physically being present at a protest. Neither of your examples have an active component so really, they're an entirely different thing.

Likewise, you trying to explain the protests away by how the restrictions on truckers aren't logical at this point is also nonsensical. It doesn't actually matter whether their reason for protesting is valid or not -- the way they are protesting is harming and endangering people and has to stop, simple as that. Like, if I were to protest against weapon sales and support of war in Yemen by, I don't know, torching kindergartens, I don't think there'd be too many people lining up justify that by how the war is an atrocity and thus my actions are justified, so I'm not sure why you think the supposed validity of the truckers' cause somehow justifies what they are doing.


Falling was responding to someone that said the protestors don't have a legitimate reason to protest. If you think the position of the truckers is completely moot to the conversation then perhaps you should have addressed that to the person that Falling was responding to instead of accusing him of "explaining away the protests."

1. The truckers don't have a legit reason to protest because ABC
2. I disagree, the truckers do have a legit reason because XYZ
3. It doesn't matter if their reason is valid or not, their methods are the issue.

When someone challenges 1, you just hide behind 3. A little cowardly, but effective. I think most people would agree that if 1 was actually a good point you'd just defend it instead of shifting to 3.


Considering the COVID thread we have right here on this forum has been going in circles for 2 years, I don't see much value in debating 1. in this thread as well, since it's just going to be same people rehashing the same tired arguments for the upteenth time. If you think my refusal to continue to get involved in a collective beating of a horse that died so long ago that there's barely even bones left of its carcass makes me a coward, so be it.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13953 Posts
February 20 2022 02:44 GMT
#1780
This has been a crazy event going on for three weeks but it seems that its finally over. Once the guy refusing to do his job got ousted and a replacement that was found that could supply leadership the whole thing is now over in a couple of days. No one was killed in a situation filled with old people children and with a group that was found with guns over the protests. The police handled what was the occupation of the capital without anything like what other protests have been responded to. Most of them were allowed to drive home when given the opportunity, preferring to keep their information to track down later. The people who were towing those that refused were well prepared to hide their identity. The largest escalation was horses pepper spray stun grenades and equipping the police with helmets and batons for the second day.

For a city that was embarrassed with its incompetence for weeks they've shown an incredible example of what you are supposed to do.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
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