Boris Nemtsov Killed - Page 20
Forum Index > General Forum |
always_winter
United States195 Posts
| ||
Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
| ||
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On March 14 2015 09:24 ZeRoX_TV wrote: I never expected that average Joe can understand geopolithics. Only genocide here was throwing thousands of tons of deepleted uranium and plutonium. I really dont wanna offtopic more then this but its clear people on this thread cannot accept that there is other opinion other then theirs.its perfectly fine when USA invade numbers of sovereign countries, take their resources, seceed their territory, but its outrageous when legal president of Ukraine take Russian side, I guess NATO couldnt expand its rockets as near to Russia as they wanted so its logical that Putin is authocrat. I guess you all prayed for USA to intervene when Turkey is bombing Kurds villages every day for years or that you are against S.Arabian dictature. Oh wait, no, its ok as long as Turkey can play its role and Arabia is delivering oil so u all can drive as much as u want for 1$. Disguisting double standards. Thats not what really happened. First of all NATO already has borders with Russia, so they could have plenty of rockets there if they wanted, somehow they don't. And somehow they weren't really welcomed there, something important that Ghanburighan took care to point out. Secondly the situation in Ukraine was far more complicated than that. Putin was pushing for Ukraine to become a part of his USSR recreation. That was not really what Yanukovich wanted mostly due to two factors: 1) fears of giving up influence in Ukraine to Putin, to the point when he would eventually be forced to step down, 2) political backlash. The main weapon Putin had was gas prices. Ukrainian economy was very dependent on low gas prices for its outdated and ineffecient metallurgy, which brought in most of the foreign currency. When oil prices rebounded after the 2008 fall the gas prices became unsustainable. So the idea for Putin was either you integrate or we squeeze blood out of your economy. Yanukovich replied by starting EU integration process. It was a bluff, because the integration itself could not bring the fast money. As the talks about the association agreement were drawing to the end, instead of giving up Putin started "trade wars", showing what kind of troubles are awaiting Yanukovich if he signs the treaty. With no cards on his hands Yanukovich tried a last minute attempt to monetize the agreement and get the loan from EU. A miracle didn't happen, but at least they could blame the braking down in talks at the EU for refusing to give the needed loan. Then Euromaidan started. It was a minor event until a few hundreds of students got violently kicked from the square. It was that spark that exploded all the problems Ukrainians had with Yanukovich: worsening economy, incredible level of corruption, deteriorating justice and abuse of power. But the disaffection with Yanukovich was dissolved over the years. The new events brought the situation to the point when Yanukovich had to make concessions, or he would not be tolerated for much longer. The funny thing is that Euromaidan helped Yanukovich to secure the deal from Putin, who got scared he is losing Ukraine right here right now. Had he then made concessions required from him it would all have went down. But that didn't happen. What happened was further violence, attempts to clear out Maidan, gangs of titushkys roaming Kyiv streets and abducting activists, sometimes killing them, refusal to bring police officers who were responsible for violence to justice. Being unable to stop the violence and see their demands met activists started discenting to violence themselves. Eventually the situation got so violent and intense that the allies of Yanukovich started to abandon him. The troops were ordered out of Kyiv and the high-ranked officers of the governmental power institutions fearing they might be sacrificed by Yanukovich pledged their support to Euromaidan, and Yanukovich regime just fell apart, despite western officials even helping Yanukovich secure the deal to keep him in power. If you look at the big picture, it was Yanukovich who started it, who made it worse, and who eventually got to be the victim of it as well. Not some evil NATO conspiring against him. User was banned for this post. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
Putin approval rating: + Show Spoiler + Franklin D. Roosevelt approval rating: + Show Spoiler + Factor in the fact that the opposition parties are terrible and it makes much more sense. | ||
Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On March 14 2015 08:44 ZeRoX_TV wrote: First look in your own yard, what NATO did to many other countries. I'm from Canada. Worst thing my government is doing is neglecting environmentalism and aboriginals (women in particular), and curtailing to American corporatism. I'm not going around spouting nonsense about how Stephen Harper will never die and embodies some ethereal human value, in fact I think he's a terrible prime minister. | ||
Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
| ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
| ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
The gist of it is that apparently Dadaev (the main suspect in custody) mentioned that he was promised 5 million RUB to kill Nemtsov by a man with codename "Ruslik". Not much more than that. | ||
Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On March 17 2015 07:56 Cheerio wrote: Thats not what really happened. First of all NATO already has borders with Russia, so they could have plenty of rockets there if they wanted, somehow they don't. And somehow they weren't really welcomed there, something important that Ghanburighan took care to point out. Secondly the situation in Ukraine was far more complicated than that. Putin was pushing for Ukraine to become a part of his USSR recreation. That was not really what Yanukovich wanted mostly due to two factors: 1) fears of giving up influence in Ukraine to Putin, to the point when he would eventually be forced to step down, 2) political backlash. The main weapon Putin had was gas prices. Ukrainian economy was very dependent on low gas prices for its outdated and ineffecient metallurgy, which brought in most of the foreign currency. When oil prices rebounded after the 2008 fall the gas prices became unsustainable. So the idea for Putin was either you integrate or we squeeze blood out of your economy. Yanukovich replied by starting EU integration process. It was a bluff, because the integration itself could not bring the fast money. As the talks about the association agreement were drawing to the end, instead of giving up Putin started "trade wars", showing what kind of troubles are awaiting Yanukovich if he signs the treaty. With no cards on his hands Yanukovich tried a last minute attempt to monetize the agreement and get the loan from EU. A miracle didn't happen, but at least they could blame the braking down in talks at the EU for refusing to give the needed loan. Then Euromaidan started. It was a minor event until a few hundreds of students got violently kicked from the square. It was that spark that exploded all the problems Ukrainians had with Yanukovich: worsening economy, incredible level of corruption, deteriorating justice and abuse of power. But the disaffection with Yanukovich was dissolved over the years. The new events brought the situation to the point when Yanukovich had to make concessions, or he would not be tolerated for much longer. The funny thing is that Euromaidan helped Yanukovich to secure the deal from Putin, who got scared he is losing Ukraine right here right now. Had he then made concessions required from him it would all have went down. But that didn't happen. What happened was further violence, attempts to clear out Maidan, gangs of titushkys roaming Kyiv streets and abducting activists, sometimes killing them, refusal to bring police officers who were responsible for violence to justice. Being unable to stop the violence and see their demands met activists started discenting to violence themselves. Eventually the situation got so violent and intense that the allies of Yanukovich started to abandon him. The troops were ordered out of Kyiv and the high-ranked officers of the governmental power institutions fearing they might be sacrificed by Yanukovich pledged their support to Euromaidan, and Yanukovich regime just fell apart, despite western officials even helping Yanukovich secure the deal to keep him in power. If you look at the big picture, it was Yanukovich who started it, who made it worse, and who eventually got to be the victim of it as well. Not some evil NATO conspiring against him. User was banned for this post. Thank you for your post. Always interesting to hear how actual Ukrainians view and experience things. | ||
ImFromPortugal
Portugal1363 Posts
On March 31 2015 03:15 LegalLord wrote: Not much but it's an article: http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2697606 The gist of it is that apparently Dadaev (the main suspect in custody) mentioned that he was promised 5 million RUB to kill Nemtsov by a man with codename "Ruslik". Not much more than that. Taking into account that the guy said that he confessed to protect his friends... | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 31 2015 05:57 ImFromPortugal wrote: Taking into account that the guy said that he confessed to protect his friends... Not to mention it's not an official statement but rather a rumor. FSB don't talk much. Expect silence until they find who is responsible. | ||
Simberto
Germany11043 Posts
| ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
1. A few witnesses were called, mostly politicians who knew Nemtsov and officers from Chechnya. Nemtsov's family wanted Kadyrov to be investigated, but that's unlikely. Source 1 and Source 2 2. Supposedly the weapon that killed him has been found, and it seems to belong to the main suspect (Dadaev). Still no word on co-conspirators. Doubt they'd tell even if they do know who did it. Source Nothing interesting written in English. Just speculative BS about a magical report that will undermine the government that he was about to publish. | ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
On March 31 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Not to mention it's not an official statement but rather a rumor. FSB don't talk much. Expect silence until they find who is responsible. I laugh at the idea of 'who is actually responsible.' That will never happen with who's in power there. It's sad because it's true. :/ | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
| ||
Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
On March 17 2015 07:56 Cheerio wrote: Thats not what really happened. First of all NATO already has borders with Russia, so they could have plenty of rockets there if they wanted, somehow they don't. And somehow they weren't really welcomed there, something important that Ghanburighan took care to point out. Secondly the situation in Ukraine was far more complicated than that. Putin was pushing for Ukraine to become a part of his USSR recreation. That was not really what Yanukovich wanted mostly due to two factors: 1) fears of giving up influence in Ukraine to Putin, to the point when he would eventually be forced to step down, 2) political backlash. The main weapon Putin had was gas prices. Ukrainian economy was very dependent on low gas prices for its outdated and ineffecient metallurgy, which brought in most of the foreign currency. When oil prices rebounded after the 2008 fall the gas prices became unsustainable. So the idea for Putin was either you integrate or we squeeze blood out of your economy. Yanukovich replied by starting EU integration process. It was a bluff, because the integration itself could not bring the fast money. As the talks about the association agreement were drawing to the end, instead of giving up Putin started "trade wars", showing what kind of troubles are awaiting Yanukovich if he signs the treaty. With no cards on his hands Yanukovich tried a last minute attempt to monetize the agreement and get the loan from EU. A miracle didn't happen, but at least they could blame the braking down in talks at the EU for refusing to give the needed loan. Then Euromaidan started. It was a minor event until a few hundreds of students got violently kicked from the square. It was that spark that exploded all the problems Ukrainians had with Yanukovich: worsening economy, incredible level of corruption, deteriorating justice and abuse of power. But the disaffection with Yanukovich was dissolved over the years. The new events brought the situation to the point when Yanukovich had to make concessions, or he would not be tolerated for much longer. The funny thing is that Euromaidan helped Yanukovich to secure the deal from Putin, who got scared he is losing Ukraine right here right now. Had he then made concessions required from him it would all have went down. But that didn't happen. What happened was further violence, attempts to clear out Maidan, gangs of titushkys roaming Kyiv streets and abducting activists, sometimes killing them, refusal to bring police officers who were responsible for violence to justice. Being unable to stop the violence and see their demands met activists started discenting to violence themselves. Eventually the situation got so violent and intense that the allies of Yanukovich started to abandon him. The troops were ordered out of Kyiv and the high-ranked officers of the governmental power institutions fearing they might be sacrificed by Yanukovich pledged their support to Euromaidan, and Yanukovich regime just fell apart, despite western officials even helping Yanukovich secure the deal to keep him in power. If you look at the big picture, it was Yanukovich who started it, who made it worse, and who eventually got to be the victim of it as well. Not some evil NATO conspiring against him. User was banned for this post. just out of curiosity,why was this guy banned? And also ty for your post,its always nice to hear first hand reports even when they are favoring one side or the other. | ||
screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
| ||
radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On June 04 2015 00:12 Rassy wrote: just out of curiosity,why was this guy banned? And also ty for your post,its always nice to hear first hand reports even when they are favoring one side or the other. I was curious too, I found the page where he was banned: Link. Kadaver wrote: Reason: You've made enough threads in the General forum worse with your posting. You are hereby banned from posting in the General forum ever again since you just won't stop getting into arguments with the same people over and over again. But then he apparently defied Kadaver's order and posted in general forums again. Its not even that what he posted was bad, its just the fact that he posted it - I think this refers to the post you see on this page, which is actually pretty decent as far as I can see. But anyway after that he was permanently banned. Here's the second ban page: Link 2 (its near the end). Kadaver wrote: I didn't think you would be the first one to post in general again, my money was on nunez. Maybe this will show the others that I was actually being serious. Oh well. I guess that's it for Cheerio. At least we know that his last post didn't go against any forum rules or etiquette problems, it was just a specific mod request that he defied. FYI the same general forums ban applies to Zeo and Nunez. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On June 04 2015 02:18 screamingpalm wrote: I am not well versed in Russian politics, But you still feel that you have enough knowledge to make uninformed, accusatory statements such as the one below. On June 04 2015 02:18 screamingpalm wrote:but everyone talking about Putin's approval rating and polls etc seems ironic after reading this article yesterday about "Troll Farms" and misinformation/public opinion control campaigns. Ugh, what a terrible article. Not going to bother addressing the article itself because it really isn't worthy of any serious reply, but I will say this much: Social media disinformation campaigns are quite common in every country. I see plenty of pro-Russia, pro-US, etc. propaganda in both English and Russian. Frankly I see more people spamming "Russian troll" on any form of criticism of pro-US articles, legitimate or not, than actual suspicious comments. It's really quite a convenient technique to be able to label anyone a Russian troll if they hold an opposing opinion. And yes, Putin's approval rating right now really is quite high. I've seen quite a few people I know who were quite critical of him become quite a bit more approving of the work he's done after the events of 2014. On Nemtsov: no new news. Some debate over whether or not the murder weapon is legitimate. He is briefly mentioned in a recap of information about upcoming regional elections. Also, a few rather quietly put together memorials honoring him. He has been a rather minor player in the political scene in recent years, so it's not really unusual that that's the case. | ||
screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
(And yes, it happens everywhere and why I take those populist polls and approval ratings with a grain of salt). | ||
| ||