|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On August 05 2017 02:37 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 02:23 warding wrote:On August 05 2017 02:17 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 02:11 warding wrote:On August 05 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 01:52 Yurie wrote:On August 05 2017 01:49 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 01:47 a_flayer wrote:On August 05 2017 01:37 Acrofales wrote:On August 05 2017 01:13 bardtown wrote: I wonder how you get half a million homeless and a simultaneous unskilled labour shortage. I can't imagine the US offers many visas for unskilled workers, either. Seems rather more like an issue with illegal immigration than legal immigration, but anyway this is US politics. We should indeed just force people to relocate and work. I hear there are some empty camps in Siberia we might be able to use. That'd be troublesome. Those camps would have to be manned and put back into working order. Just send them to the US, they still operate their slave labor camps. Hey now, the tech industry and the H-1B visa program is more like indentured servitude. Much more progressive. I think he was referring to the for profit prison system industry. It is so hard to tell which messed up US system people are talking about. It is a tragedy of choices to mock this nation. EU question: Who do the EU nations handle emergency housing, shelters, and long term housing for the homeless? In broad strokes. The homeless and indigent are part of any nation, but I am curious and realizing how little I know about the systems that are in place. In Portugal I'd say you have three(plus one) entities operating - local governments create both temporary housing and social housing and create re-insertion programs (some by national government too); an institution whose name translates to "Holy House of Mercy" earns revenue from a monopoly on lotteries and manages some temporary housing and programs; religious institutions related to the catholic church have a lot of programs too. Finally the plus one I'd say is that given a society with strong family connections, provides an additional safety net. This is a country where people often can't afford to move out until they're 30 and where grandparents often move back in. No expert in this. I'd say one big problem in the US is mental health care. I just spent two weeks in CA and couldn't believe how many insane homeless people there were in each and every street corner of LA and SF. It's unthinkable in most EU countries I know to have people with serious mental health conditions live in the streets. You are right, but also California is a wildly dysfunctional state and does not take good care of their homeless. Recently SF(highest income and housing costs in the US) tried to bus them out of the city(a common tactic, dumping them on another city that is willing pay for shelters). The homeless people just walked back to the city out of spite. They just don't want to spend money and would rather pass the cost on to some other town. I found it really strange given that the state votes heavily Democratic and is seemingly very progressive. Does this list sound right (rank by homeless ratio): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_populationThe US seems to actually have a decent ratio of homelessness - might it be that they're simply concentrated in the big cities? Canada, Australia and the UK have particularly high homeless ratios - must be that terrible anglosaxon culture. Yup. Our societies are more competitive and less family oriented and we have insane house prices. On the flipside:
Housing prices have skyrocketed because of misguided zoning and development policies. The population has barely grown at all in Europe. Do what Tokyo does and let people build shit of hampering construction.
https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60
As so often the enemy of the working class is not the immigrant but the upper midde class that zones everybody out of their nice neighborhoods.
|
Leaving your parents' house is important for maturity and confidence building. It also greatly improves the logistics of getting laid.
|
On August 05 2017 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 02:37 bardtown wrote:On August 05 2017 02:23 warding wrote:On August 05 2017 02:17 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 02:11 warding wrote:On August 05 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 01:52 Yurie wrote:On August 05 2017 01:49 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 01:47 a_flayer wrote:On August 05 2017 01:37 Acrofales wrote: [quote] We should indeed just force people to relocate and work. I hear there are some empty camps in Siberia we might be able to use. That'd be troublesome. Those camps would have to be manned and put back into working order. Just send them to the US, they still operate their slave labor camps. Hey now, the tech industry and the H-1B visa program is more like indentured servitude. Much more progressive. I think he was referring to the for profit prison system industry. It is so hard to tell which messed up US system people are talking about. It is a tragedy of choices to mock this nation. EU question: Who do the EU nations handle emergency housing, shelters, and long term housing for the homeless? In broad strokes. The homeless and indigent are part of any nation, but I am curious and realizing how little I know about the systems that are in place. In Portugal I'd say you have three(plus one) entities operating - local governments create both temporary housing and social housing and create re-insertion programs (some by national government too); an institution whose name translates to "Holy House of Mercy" earns revenue from a monopoly on lotteries and manages some temporary housing and programs; religious institutions related to the catholic church have a lot of programs too. Finally the plus one I'd say is that given a society with strong family connections, provides an additional safety net. This is a country where people often can't afford to move out until they're 30 and where grandparents often move back in. No expert in this. I'd say one big problem in the US is mental health care. I just spent two weeks in CA and couldn't believe how many insane homeless people there were in each and every street corner of LA and SF. It's unthinkable in most EU countries I know to have people with serious mental health conditions live in the streets. You are right, but also California is a wildly dysfunctional state and does not take good care of their homeless. Recently SF(highest income and housing costs in the US) tried to bus them out of the city(a common tactic, dumping them on another city that is willing pay for shelters). The homeless people just walked back to the city out of spite. They just don't want to spend money and would rather pass the cost on to some other town. I found it really strange given that the state votes heavily Democratic and is seemingly very progressive. Does this list sound right (rank by homeless ratio): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_populationThe US seems to actually have a decent ratio of homelessness - might it be that they're simply concentrated in the big cities? Canada, Australia and the UK have particularly high homeless ratios - must be that terrible anglosaxon culture. Yup. Our societies are more competitive and less family oriented and we have insane house prices. On the flipside: Housing prices have skyrocketed because of misguided zoning and development policies. The population has barely grown at all in Europe. Do what Tokyo does and let people build shit of hampering construction. https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60As so often the enemy of the working class is not the immigrant but the upper midde class that zones everybody out of their nice neighborhoods. That is hilarious because we have the exact same problem in the US, a shortage of working class housing. Upper middle class housing is fine. Rich housing is through the roof in development. And housing for the poor is being developed. But first time home buyers and working class renters are having a hard time finding anything built for them.
|
Must be government intervention then, since the free market solves all problems, no matter how high the inequality and market power of the few.
|
There was an entire article about real estate developers talking about how the free market would never solve the problem. That investors wouldn’t invest in middle class housing and have historically never done so. I wish I could remember where it was written, it as really good.
|
Hard to decide between lower housing prices for locals or selling your city for Russian mafia money!
|
Talking about housing policy/real estate as a political problem really poisons everything. It's entirely a regulatory problem where utilitarian/aesthetic/urban planning knowledge should be prevailing. When ideologues come into it you get idiotic policy like rent controls and ghastly social housing on one end and Houston on the other.
EDIT: What I meant to say is, making it about "free market is bad" vs "government is bad" leads to bad policy.
|
I for my part believe that property cost are rather directely related to inequality in your society. Since the state guarantees for property through police (socialization of cost) and hardly taxes property compared to work, there is hardly any reason to get rid of property. You would basically have to believe that some catastrophe or social unrest is about to happen for property prices in densely populated areas to ever fall. At this point it is basically private tax collection with the working people paying for your defense.
|
On August 05 2017 02:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:On August 05 2017 02:37 bardtown wrote:On August 05 2017 02:23 warding wrote:On August 05 2017 02:17 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 02:11 warding wrote:On August 05 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 01:52 Yurie wrote:On August 05 2017 01:49 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 01:47 a_flayer wrote: [quote] That'd be troublesome. Those camps would have to be manned and put back into working order. Just send them to the US, they still operate their slave labor camps. Hey now, the tech industry and the H-1B visa program is more like indentured servitude. Much more progressive. I think he was referring to the for profit prison system industry. It is so hard to tell which messed up US system people are talking about. It is a tragedy of choices to mock this nation. EU question: Who do the EU nations handle emergency housing, shelters, and long term housing for the homeless? In broad strokes. The homeless and indigent are part of any nation, but I am curious and realizing how little I know about the systems that are in place. In Portugal I'd say you have three(plus one) entities operating - local governments create both temporary housing and social housing and create re-insertion programs (some by national government too); an institution whose name translates to "Holy House of Mercy" earns revenue from a monopoly on lotteries and manages some temporary housing and programs; religious institutions related to the catholic church have a lot of programs too. Finally the plus one I'd say is that given a society with strong family connections, provides an additional safety net. This is a country where people often can't afford to move out until they're 30 and where grandparents often move back in. No expert in this. I'd say one big problem in the US is mental health care. I just spent two weeks in CA and couldn't believe how many insane homeless people there were in each and every street corner of LA and SF. It's unthinkable in most EU countries I know to have people with serious mental health conditions live in the streets. You are right, but also California is a wildly dysfunctional state and does not take good care of their homeless. Recently SF(highest income and housing costs in the US) tried to bus them out of the city(a common tactic, dumping them on another city that is willing pay for shelters). The homeless people just walked back to the city out of spite. They just don't want to spend money and would rather pass the cost on to some other town. I found it really strange given that the state votes heavily Democratic and is seemingly very progressive. Does this list sound right (rank by homeless ratio): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_populationThe US seems to actually have a decent ratio of homelessness - might it be that they're simply concentrated in the big cities? Canada, Australia and the UK have particularly high homeless ratios - must be that terrible anglosaxon culture. Yup. Our societies are more competitive and less family oriented and we have insane house prices. On the flipside: Housing prices have skyrocketed because of misguided zoning and development policies. The population has barely grown at all in Europe. Do what Tokyo does and let people build shit of hampering construction. https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60As so often the enemy of the working class is not the immigrant but the upper midde class that zones everybody out of their nice neighborhoods. That is hilarious because we have the exact same problem in the US, a shortage of working class housing. Upper middle class housing is fine. Rich housing is through the roof in development. And housing for the poor is being developed. But first time home buyers and working class renters are having a hard time finding anything built for them.
The US had the fantastic idea of delegating building law to localities which has resulted in the worst possibly form of nimby-ism imaginable.
|
On August 05 2017 03:54 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 02:58 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:On August 05 2017 02:37 bardtown wrote:On August 05 2017 02:23 warding wrote:On August 05 2017 02:17 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 02:11 warding wrote:On August 05 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2017 01:52 Yurie wrote:On August 05 2017 01:49 Plansix wrote: [quote] Hey now, the tech industry and the H-1B visa program is more like indentured servitude. Much more progressive. I think he was referring to the for profit prison system industry. It is so hard to tell which messed up US system people are talking about. It is a tragedy of choices to mock this nation. EU question: Who do the EU nations handle emergency housing, shelters, and long term housing for the homeless? In broad strokes. The homeless and indigent are part of any nation, but I am curious and realizing how little I know about the systems that are in place. In Portugal I'd say you have three(plus one) entities operating - local governments create both temporary housing and social housing and create re-insertion programs (some by national government too); an institution whose name translates to "Holy House of Mercy" earns revenue from a monopoly on lotteries and manages some temporary housing and programs; religious institutions related to the catholic church have a lot of programs too. Finally the plus one I'd say is that given a society with strong family connections, provides an additional safety net. This is a country where people often can't afford to move out until they're 30 and where grandparents often move back in. No expert in this. I'd say one big problem in the US is mental health care. I just spent two weeks in CA and couldn't believe how many insane homeless people there were in each and every street corner of LA and SF. It's unthinkable in most EU countries I know to have people with serious mental health conditions live in the streets. You are right, but also California is a wildly dysfunctional state and does not take good care of their homeless. Recently SF(highest income and housing costs in the US) tried to bus them out of the city(a common tactic, dumping them on another city that is willing pay for shelters). The homeless people just walked back to the city out of spite. They just don't want to spend money and would rather pass the cost on to some other town. I found it really strange given that the state votes heavily Democratic and is seemingly very progressive. Does this list sound right (rank by homeless ratio): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_populationThe US seems to actually have a decent ratio of homelessness - might it be that they're simply concentrated in the big cities? Canada, Australia and the UK have particularly high homeless ratios - must be that terrible anglosaxon culture. Yup. Our societies are more competitive and less family oriented and we have insane house prices. On the flipside: Housing prices have skyrocketed because of misguided zoning and development policies. The population has barely grown at all in Europe. Do what Tokyo does and let people build shit of hampering construction. https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60As so often the enemy of the working class is not the immigrant but the upper midde class that zones everybody out of their nice neighborhoods. That is hilarious because we have the exact same problem in the US, a shortage of working class housing. Upper middle class housing is fine. Rich housing is through the roof in development. And housing for the poor is being developed. But first time home buyers and working class renters are having a hard time finding anything built for them. The US had the fantastic idea of delegating building law to localities which has resulted in the worst possibly form of nimby-ism imaginable. The state of Connecticut(where rich people who work in New York City build their houses) live, they are still running on the ghetto system for their poor. No single town will allow poor or working class housing to be built, so all of the poor get concentrated in one or two cities. And the result is as you expect it to be, high crime and poor infrastructure. And it will never change until the state overhauls their entire system. But why do that when you can just push all off the poor out of the state into another state? Letting our local governments have total control of zoning has always been a nightmare. Anyone who thinks moving to that system is a good idea needs to look at the US long and hard.
|
You forget that state competition is a good thing because it makes them so much more efficient at dealing with these things! If only all the other states would push the poor out of their states and into the sea then they'd be gone. Can't get more efficient than that!
|
Isn't zoning controlled by local governments pretty much everywhere?
|
|
|
Zoning locally makes perfect sense. The problem arisess once you factor in local tax policy/competition between towns/villages and social costs.
|
I am not sure if it is wildly different in the EU, but in US most towns and cities have almost total control over their zoning and what is built there. Which is why you have cities like San Francisco with a massive homeless population and no homeless shelters. Because attempts to create them are slapped down by local groups or interests.
|
On August 05 2017 04:34 Velr wrote: Zoning locally makes perfect sense. The problem arisess once you factor in local tax policy/competition between towns/villages and social costs.
Makes no sense at all. Massively impedes development of new buildings and perpetuates racial and economic segregation. Just look at the numbers from the FT article above. California builds two times less housing than Tokyo and is three times as populous.
It makes about as much sense as asking the local population if they want wind turbines or power plants in their neighborhood. Everybody wants energy but if every individual would have a say you wouldn't have a single power plant in your country.
Having a top down approach makes sense because the national government can override particular local interest that disproportionately affects everybody.
|
Ft article is paywalled though
|
googling the article circumvents the paywall
or here plaintext
+ Show Spoiler + It was the rapidity of what happened to the house next door that took us by surprise. We knew it was empty. Grass was steadily taking over its mossy Japanese garden; the upstairs curtains never moved. But one day a notice went up, a hydraulic excavator tore the house down, and by the end of next year it will be a block of 16 apartments instead.
Abruptly, we are living next door to a Tokyo building site. It is not fun. They work six days a week. Were this London, Paris or San Francisco, there would be howls of resident rage — petitions, dire warnings about loss of neighbourhood character, and possibly a lawsuit or two. Local elections have been lost for less.
Yet in our neighbourhood, there was not a murmur, and a conversation with Takahiko Noguchi, head of the planning section in Minato ward, explains why. “There is no legal restraint on demolishing a building,” he says. “People have the right to use their land so basically neighbouring people have no right to stop development.”
Here is a startling fact: in 2014 there were 142,417 housing starts in the city of Tokyo (population 13.3m, no empty land), more than the 83,657 housing permits issued in the state of California (population 38.7m), or the 137,010 houses started in the entire country of England (population 54.3m).
Tokyo’s steady construction is linked to a still more startling fact. In contrast to the enormous house price booms that have distorted western cities — setting young against old, redistributing wealth to the already wealthy, and denying others the chance to move to where the good jobs are — the cost of property in Japan’s capital has hardly budged.
This is not the result of a falling population. Japan has experienced the same “return to the city” wave as other nations. In Minato ward — a desirable 20 sq km slice of central Tokyo — the population is up 66 per cent over the past 20 years, from 145,000 to 241,000, an increase of about 100,000 residents.
In the 121 sq km of San Francisco, the population grew by about the same number over 20 years, from 746,000 to 865,000 — a rise of 16 per cent. Yet whereas the price of a home in San Francisco and London has increased 231 per cent and 441 per cent respectively, Minato ward has absorbed its population boom with price rises of just 45 per cent, much of which came after the Bank of Japan launched its big monetary stimulus in 2013.
In Tokyo there are no boring conversations about house prices because they have not changed much. Whether to buy or rent is not a life-changing decision. Rather, Japan delivers to its people a steadily improving standard, location and volume of house.
In many countries, urban housing is becoming one of the great social and economic issues of the age. (Would Britain have voted for Brexit if more of the population could move to London?) It is worth investigating, therefore, how Tokyo achieved this feat, the price it has paid for a steady stream of homes, and whether there are any lessons to learn.
Like most institutions in Japan, urban planning was originally based on western models. “It’s similar to the United States system,” says Junichiro Okata, professor of urban engineering at the University of Tokyo.
Cities are zoned into commercial, industrial and residential land of various types. In commercial areas you can build what you want: part of Tokyo’s trick is a blossoming of apartment towers in former industrial zones around the bay. But in low-rise residential districts, there are strict limits, and it is hard to get land rezoned.
Subject to the zoning rules, the rights of landowners are strong. In fact, Japan’s constitution declares that “the right to own or to hold property is inviolable”. A private developer cannot make you sell land; a local government cannot stop you using it. If you want to build a mock-Gothic castle faced in pink seashells, that is your business.
In the cities of coastal California, zoning rules have led to paralysis and a lack of new housing supply, as existing homeowners block new development. It was a similar story in 1980s Tokyo.
“During the 1980s Japan had a spectacular speculative house price bubble that was even worse than in London and New York during the same period, and various Japanese economists were decrying the planning and zoning systems as having been a major contributor by reducing supply,” says André Sorensen, a geography professor at the University of Toronto, who has written extensively on planning in Japan.
All of this comes at a price . . . the modern Japanese cityscape — Tokyo included — can be spectacularly ugly
But, indirectly, it was the bubble that laid foundations for future housing across the centre of Tokyo, says Hiro Ichikawa, who advises developer Mori Building. When it burst, developers were left with expensively assembled office sites for which there was no longer any demand.
As bad loans to developers brought Japan’s financial system to the brink of collapse in the 1990s, the government relaxed development rules, culminating in the Urban Renaissance Law of 2002, which made it easier to rezone land. Office sites were repurposed for new housing. “To help the economy recover from the bubble, the country eased regulation on urban development,” says Ichikawa. “If it hadn’t been for the bubble, Tokyo would be in the same situation as London or San Francisco.”
Hallways and public areas were excluded from the calculated size of apartment buildings, letting them grow much higher within existing zoning, while a proposal now under debate would allow owners to rebuild bigger if they knock down blocks built to old earthquake standards.
All of this law flows from the national government, and freedom to demolish and rebuild means landowners can quickly take advantage. “The city planning law and the building law are set nationally — even small details are written in national law,” says Okata. “Local government has almost no power over development.”
“Without rebuilding we can’t protect lives [from earthquakes],” says Noguchi in Minato ward, reflecting the prevailing view in Japan that all buildings are temporary and disposable, another crucial difference between Tokyo and its western counterparts. “There are still plenty of places with old buildings where it’s possible to increase the volume.”
Constant rebuilding helps to explain why housing starts in the city are so high: the net increase in homes is lower. Like our next-door neighbours, however, a rebuild often allows an increase in density.
All of this comes at a price, not financial, but one paid in other ways. Put simply, the modern Japanese cityscape — Tokyo included — can be spectacularly ugly. There is no visual co-ordination of buildings, little open space, and “high-quality” mainly means “won’t fall down in an earthquake”.
Some of Tokyo’s older apartment buildings give industrial Siberia a dystopian run for its money. The mock-Gothic castle is no flight of fancy: visit the Emperor love hotel, which (de) faces the canal in Meguro ward. Most depressing of all are the serried, endless ranks of cheap, prefab, wooden houses in the Tokyo suburbs.
“The Japanese system is extremely laissez-faire. It really is the minimum. And it’s extremely centralised and standardised. That means it is highly flexible in responding to social and economic change,” says Okata.
“On the other hand, it’s not much good at producing outcomes suited to a particular town in a particular place. It can’t produce attractive cities like the UK or Europe.” Okata wants to hand much more power to local government.
And yet. At the level of individual buildings, if you block from your vision whatever stands next door, Tokyo fizzes with invention and beauty. It is no coincidence that the country where architects can build has produced a procession of Pritzker prize winners.
Japanese urbanism, with its “scramble” pedestrian crossings, its narrow streets, its dense population and its superb public transport is looked to as a model, certainly in Asia, and increasingly across the rest of the world as well.
Most of all, Tokyo is fair. The ugliness is shared by rich and poor alike. So is the low-cost housing. In London, or in San Francisco, all share in the beauty, but some enjoy it from the gutter; others from high above the city, in the rationed seats, closer to the stars.
|
Thanks for the read.
The only part I dislike is the fact those laws are national. Some wonderful villages in France are protected by laws but the autor already wrote about it. On the other hand, that's not really the case in the big cities and it would make perfect sense to use the Japanese system, outside of protecting a few buildings for their historical value.
|
On August 07 2017 06:40 nojok wrote: Thanks for the read.
The only part I dislike is the fact those laws are national. Some wonderful villages in France are protected by laws but the autor already wrote about it. On the other hand, that's not really the case in the big cities and it would make perfect sense to use the Japanese system, outside of protecting a few buildings for their historical value. I dunno. Japan has historical towns. I'm sure they have a way of protecting heritage sites. Of course, their situation on a fault line means few buildings as old as those habitual in Europe are still standing, but there are still some medieval temples and castles at least.
|
|
|
|
|
|