EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 885
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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
And I'm sure there was some notion similar to that Flemish movement in eastern Ukraine/Crimea as well before Euromaidan, which then got far more popularity as an anti-Maidan protest in response to Euromaidan. I'm also sure there was pro-Euromaidan 'propaganda' too. Except you're not going to call it propaganda because you agree with it. Pro-Trump people were calling liberals paid protesters as well. I'm sure there was some level of truth to that as well in some specific scenarios, and there's no denying that Russia had a hand in rallying people, but it's still people rallying. The US also undoubtedly threw money at the pro-Euromaidan protests in one way or another (supporting the pro-Euro political parties so they can afford tv airtime/posters/etc). I mean come on, this is just a matter of calling what the other side does evil while tolerating it on your own side. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:16 mustaju wrote: Except where was the independence movement before the Maidan protests? Look at news before 2014 and you can easily find plenty of proof that Crimea never was well-integrated into Ukraine and always had a tendency to seek to go back - with the exception of a sweetheart deal in the 1990s that convinced a slim majority to choose to be an autonomous region in Ukraine rather than a federal subject of Russia. It doesn't take much research to find out that that was in fact the case; if you didn't know it's simply because you didn't care to know. I know quite a few Ukrainians who, while not really in the position to rebel since they live more in the heartland, have come to realize how right the Donbass folk were for choosing to leave the diseased excuse of a government that is the Poroshenko administration. On June 05 2017 02:16 mustaju wrote: Was there a common Donbass identity beforehand? Would such a thing exist without massive Russian propaganda? Would such a thing exist without paid mercenaries? Yes, lol, and fucking lol. On June 05 2017 02:16 mustaju wrote: By covertly inserting themselves into the conflict, Russia has lied in Orwellian fashion. Expecting anyone to see the side of the Ministry of Truth from Orwell would be exactly as fruitful as the current situation and Russia has only itself to blame with it's "volunteers". Oh yes, that evil, evil Russia and its evil, evil deeds! Evil! | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:21 a_flayer wrote: Right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Movement And I'm sure there was some notion of that as well before Euromaidan, which then got far more popularity as an anti-Maidan protest in response to Euromaidan. I'm sure there was pro-Euromaidan 'propaganda' too. Except you're not going to call it propaganda because you agree with it. The flemish movement I obviously know about, but believing anyone who first guarantees the territorial integrity of Ukraine with international treaties and then sends in crack troops as volunteers goes against so many international norms and rules, why should anyone believe them after that? At one point to you start believing the Ministry of Truth? Could you be deceived by it? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:27 LegalLord wrote: Look at news before 2014 and you can easily find plenty of proof that Crimea never was well-integrated into Ukraine and always had a tendency to seek to go back - with the exception of a sweetheart deal in the 1990s that convinced a slim majority to choose to be an autonomous region in Ukraine rather than a federal subject of Russia. It doesn't take much research to find out that that was in fact the case; if you didn't know it's simply because you didn't care to know. Yes, lol, and fucking lol. Oh yes, that evil, evil Russia and its evil, evil deeds! Evil! Are you interested in discussion this time? Or are you "not interested in this discussion anymore" about 3 or 4 posts from now? EDIT: On June 05 2017 02:28 TheDwf wrote: Can we veto Russia/Ukraine discussions in this thread? They do kind of overshadow everything else. Probably a good idea, for this thread at least. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:28 TheDwf wrote: Can we veto Russia/Ukraine discussions in this thread? Well both are a part of Europe so they do belong here in certain quantities. Though if by Russia/Ukraine you mean specifically the Ukraine Crisis and Crimean referendum, then sure. On June 05 2017 02:30 mustaju wrote: Are you interested in discussion this time? Or are you "not interested in this discussion anymore" about 3 or 4 posts from now? I ignore people who aren't worth talking to. If you prove you aren't worth talking to, I will ignore you. I am not particularly interested in a chain of posts whining about how evil Russia is through assertion and narrative-weaving. If you want a serious discussion it can perhaps be had - but I can't see that you're interested in that at the moment. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:28 TheDwf wrote: Can we veto Russia/Ukraine discussions in this thread? Wouldn't that just move it to the US politics thread? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:32 Plansix wrote: Wouldn't that just move it to the US politics thread? Could give you some distraction to forget Trump's horrors lol | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:33 TheDwf wrote: Could give you some distraction to forget Trump's horrors lol Just brew up a nice warm cup of covfefe and all your troubles will disappear for a day. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9209 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:30 LegalLord wrote: Well both are a part of Europe so they do belong here in certain quantities. Though if by Russia/Ukraine you mean specifically the Ukraine Crisis and Crimean referendum, then sure. I ignore people who aren't worth talking to. If you prove you aren't worth talking to, I will ignore you. I am not particularly interested in a chain of posts whining about how evil Russia is through assertion and narrative-weaving. If you want a serious discussion it can perhaps be had - but I can't see that you're interested in that at the moment. You are correct in that it is close to impossible to have a serious conversation with people with whom you have a disagreement about the basic nature of reality. Rather than point out where you disagree, you are quite welcome to keep mocking my position, but I have not seen you convince anyone in at least half a year. I hope you will eventually come around to seeing other perspectives and seeing the other side in a non-caricaturized manner. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:40 Sent. wrote: Can't you just not read the posts regarding the topic you don't like? disagree with everything a_flayer has to say, but I think his posts are helpful in understanding why people unintentionally become Kremlin apologists. So you don't think that the EU should stick together to form a strong block to protect itself from powerful foreign (Russian) interests regardless of how the US chooses to act in the future? You don't think Russia is a potential threat to European interests? You don't think it's ridiculous to call the Russians genetically predisposed to deception and manipulation? I've said before that I think Hitler was bad, but you seem to disagree with everything I say, so you think he isn't...? That is disturbing. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21761 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:50 a_flayer wrote: So you don't think that the EU should stick together to form a strong block to protect itself from powerful foreign (Russian) interests regardless of how the US chooses to act in the future? You don't think it's ridiculous to call the Russians genetically predisposed to deception and manipulation? I've said before that I think Hitler was bad, but you seem to disagree with everything I say, so you think he isn't...? That is disturbing. Again taking something 1 person says and applying it to everyone... Edit:Oh look and Godwin'd already... christ these discussions are pointless. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:52 Gorsameth wrote: Again taking something 1 person says and applying it to everyone... Edit:Oh look and Godwin'd already... christ these discussions are pointless. What? I'm not applying what he said to everyone else. I'm applying what he said about me to him. He said he disagrees with everything I have to say. I've said a lot of stuff. He does not disagree with everything I have to say, at all, so I'm mocking him for his own statements. He is Polish, so he agrees with me that Russian interests constitute some level of threat. Simple as that. How are you interpreting what I said in response to him as me applying his statement to everyone else? | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:49 mustaju wrote: You are correct in that it is close to impossible to have a serious conversation with people with whom you have a disagreement about the basic nature of reality. Rather than point out where you disagree, you are quite welcome to keep mocking my position, but I have not seen you convince anyone in at least half a year. I hope you will eventually come around to seeing other perspectives and seeing the other side in a non-caricaturized manner. Well as long as you understand that it's impossible to have a serious conversation with you that's good enough for me. You'll understand then, why I don't treat your posts seriously on that matter. For what it's worth, I also disagree with flayer on a lot of things. I'm much more anti-EU than he is, and I have a few key disagreements here and there on things he says about Russia. But we all speak only for ourselves, so that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. I don't take it personally when someone disagrees with me, especially if they are mature about it. | ||
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
1. Flemish Dutch puppet is in power promising freedom of press and closer ties to EU; 2. He creates closer ties with Netherlands and takes steps to leave the EU 3. Walloons protest at the grand place 4. Govt police and protest grows violent and larger 5. The puppet flees to Netherlands 6. A new Belgian government is established 7. Netherlands annexes part of Flandres and sends out mercenaries to the rest. The purpose of these exercises is to look at things from an unbiased perspective by changing who the actors are. However that lacks a judgement of the Ukrainian people's welfare following either path: closer relations to Russia vs joining the EU. It's clear to me they'd be much better off getting closer to the EU. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
On June 05 2017 02:32 Plansix wrote: Wouldn't that just move it to the US politics thread? The US politics thread is the containment thread anyway. So a little more shit in there wouldn't really make a difference anyway. | ||
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pmh
1352 Posts
On June 05 2017 00:06 LegalLord wrote: The Germany voter bloc probably can't be happier about Macron being elected. It will allow them to forget that he in all likelihood will follow the Hollande trajectory of popularity. Macron will be popular I think,hollande had the problem of having to start reforms while the economy was still in a slump. The economy is much better now and still improving. Macron will have a much easier time if only because of this. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
http://redux.slate.com/cover-stories/2017/05/louise-mensch-and-the-rise-of-the-liberal-conspiracy-theorist.html Remember all the breathless hysteria about Russia hacking the French election? Turns out that it was all based on nothing: Guillaume Poupard, director general of the French agency ANSSI, told The Associated Press there was no evidence that the hack leading to those leaks had anything to do with Russia. Poupard said the attack leading to the leaks was so simple "we can imagine that it was a person who did this alone. They could be in any country." http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/336034-no-evidence-of-russia-behind-marcon-leaks-report Seeing comments in Washington Post comment section claiming that the recent London terrorists were FSB agents makes me realise that some on the left are no better than Alex Jones/Infowars when it comes to this stuff. As soon as you stoop to that level you've already lost. | ||
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