|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
France12886 Posts
On April 26 2017 06:24 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 06:18 Poopi wrote:On April 26 2017 06:15 TheDwf wrote:On April 26 2017 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 26 2017 06:07 TheDwf wrote:On April 26 2017 05:52 Poopi wrote:On April 26 2017 05:43 TheDwf wrote:
Macron's results = 1 million of extra jobless people I remember that line from the Youtube video of some angry hairy dude, so I'll ask there in hope for an honest answer: is there a proof that this is (100%) due to his politics when he was finance minister, and not the natural consequences of his predecessors? If so, where is it? If there isn't, then you are being fallacious so why should I listen to you? In the first months it was of course the consequence of Sarkozy/Fillon's policies, but after that it was Hollande/Macron yes (who didn't deviate at all from what was done before anyway). Macron was the economic advisor back in the first 2 years. The austerity, the supply-side policies with the CICE and the pacte de responsabilité, obviously the loi Macron but also the labour bill (which was supposed to be the loi Macron 2), it's all him On April 26 2017 05:56 Nyxisto wrote:
You can't on the one side complain about people simplifying Mélenchon or making a caricature of him and then act as if Macron has sinister intentions and wants to sell his mother and all the workers so that the banks can make more profit. That's the exact same shitty generalisation into the other direction. I guess you could at least grant him a little benefit of the doubt and wait until he actually fucks up.
If Macron does what Schröder does in Germany the result will be very ambiguous. It's not clear at all objectively ten years later if has only hurt us, improved the situation or whatever. Even on the left people disagree about this.
But to act as if he's automatically going to fail even before he's in office is just not reasonable. ... He has already been tried during 4 years under Hollande, he inspired or was associated with all the big economic decisions, as close advisor then minister. I don't even need to make predictions, even if I actually could; I only need to look at the current (lack of positive) results. I don't need to wait him to actually f*ck up because he already f*cked up. And yes he wants to do what Schröder did That's not really my question, nor a proof that this is what actually led to 1 more million jobless people. Can you prove that another person would have had a significatively different outcome? Can you prove that unicorns don't exist? You seem to imply that there would be no relation between the economic policy and unemployment? I am not the one trying to use my opinions as facts  . Thanks for confirming that it was a scam. I don't know what to say really, the consequences of the austerity policies in the eurozone after 2011 are largely analyzed as having slowed down growth, but whatever. Can search a few links if you want but you're probably only interested in trolling
You are the one presenting things in a way that implies these are facts, but not being able to prove it, and I'm the one trolling?
It would have been fine if you said something along the lines of: "I think that the past governments led us to this jobless crisis because blabla... and Macron is in the continuity of these governments, so imo we need to try something else... blabla".
But no, you said "Macron's results = 1 million of extra jobless people". You may be right, but if you can't prove it, use a different wording.
|
On April 26 2017 05:52 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 05:43 TheDwf wrote:
Macron's results = 1 million of extra jobless people I remember that line from the Youtube video of some angry hairy dude, so I'll ask there in hope for an honest answer: is there a proof that this is (100%) due to his politics when he was finance minister, and not the natural consequences of his predecessors? If so, where is it? If there isn't, then you are being fallacious so why should I listen to you?
This kind of numbers come from the brain of a politician (politicians never lie...obviously...) for the gullibles.
And even if you prove them how wrong they are with independant et reliable sources, conspiracy theory would be hatching instantly.
Just the usual crap in France politics (and elsewhere, USA and UK recently) for the clueless, gullible and narrow-minded people.
|
On April 26 2017 06:50 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 05:52 Poopi wrote:On April 26 2017 05:43 TheDwf wrote:
Macron's results = 1 million of extra jobless people I remember that line from the Youtube video of some angry hairy dude, so I'll ask there in hope for an honest answer: is there a proof that this is (100%) due to his politics when he was finance minister, and not the natural consequences of his predecessors? If so, where is it? If there isn't, then you are being fallacious so why should I listen to you? This kind of numbers come from the brain of a politician (politicians never lie...obviously...) for the gullibles.
...
![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/%C3%89valuationCh%C3%B4mageFranceAo%C3%BBt2015.png)
Figures from Pôle emploi
|
Do you think we should all know French? :D
|
number of job seekers at the end of the month in millions. But again I really think this needs to be looked at carefully because this is still very much in the post 2008 financial crisis phase that France really did not get out of well. Just to point at the graph is a little bit like Trump taking credit for Obama's econ policies.
|
In thousands not in millions. It's the job seekers registered at Pole Emploi at the end of the month in category A, B, C, D and E, and cvs-cjo means that the numbers are corrected for seasonal variations and business days (août is august and févr is february)
|
TheDwf what do you think are the causes of joblessness?
|
On April 26 2017 06:24 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 06:18 Poopi wrote:On April 26 2017 06:15 TheDwf wrote:On April 26 2017 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 26 2017 06:07 TheDwf wrote:On April 26 2017 05:52 Poopi wrote:On April 26 2017 05:43 TheDwf wrote:
Macron's results = 1 million of extra jobless people I remember that line from the Youtube video of some angry hairy dude, so I'll ask there in hope for an honest answer: is there a proof that this is (100%) due to his politics when he was finance minister, and not the natural consequences of his predecessors? If so, where is it? If there isn't, then you are being fallacious so why should I listen to you? In the first months it was of course the consequence of Sarkozy/Fillon's policies, but after that it was Hollande/Macron yes (who didn't deviate at all from what was done before anyway). Macron was the economic advisor back in the first 2 years. The austerity, the supply-side policies with the CICE and the pacte de responsabilité, obviously the loi Macron but also the labour bill (which was supposed to be the loi Macron 2), it's all him On April 26 2017 05:56 Nyxisto wrote:
You can't on the one side complain about people simplifying Mélenchon or making a caricature of him and then act as if Macron has sinister intentions and wants to sell his mother and all the workers so that the banks can make more profit. That's the exact same shitty generalisation into the other direction. I guess you could at least grant him a little benefit of the doubt and wait until he actually fucks up.
If Macron does what Schröder does in Germany the result will be very ambiguous. It's not clear at all objectively ten years later if has only hurt us, improved the situation or whatever. Even on the left people disagree about this.
But to act as if he's automatically going to fail even before he's in office is just not reasonable. ... He has already been tried during 4 years under Hollande, he inspired or was associated with all the big economic decisions, as close advisor then minister. I don't even need to make predictions, even if I actually could; I only need to look at the current (lack of positive) results. I don't need to wait him to actually f*ck up because he already f*cked up. And yes he wants to do what Schröder did That's not really my question, nor a proof that this is what actually led to 1 more million jobless people. Can you prove that another person would have had a significatively different outcome? Can you prove that unicorns don't exist? You seem to imply that there would be no relation between the economic policy and unemployment? I am not the one trying to use my opinions as facts . Thanks for confirming that it was a scam. I don't know what to say really, the consequences of the austerity policies in the eurozone after 2011 are largely analyzed as having slowed down growth, but whatever. Can search a few links if you want but you're probably only interested in trolling
I'm interested in those links.
|
Le Pen goes full alterantive facts on TF1 apparently. Not all that surprising, the FN has made lies its trademark.
source
Many friends who voted Mélenchon refusing to vote Macron. Apparently the Berniebros don't have the monopoly on political immaturity.
|
On April 26 2017 07:00 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 06:50 Agathon wrote:On April 26 2017 05:52 Poopi wrote:On April 26 2017 05:43 TheDwf wrote:
Macron's results = 1 million of extra jobless people I remember that line from the Youtube video of some angry hairy dude, so I'll ask there in hope for an honest answer: is there a proof that this is (100%) due to his politics when he was finance minister, and not the natural consequences of his predecessors? If so, where is it? If there isn't, then you are being fallacious so why should I listen to you? This kind of numbers come from the brain of a politician (politicians never lie...obviously...) for the gullibles. ... Figures from Pôle emploi
3 big issues in your comment :
1- Pole Emploi web site says otherwise. Your source is wikipedia. Not Pole emploi.
2- You consider all categories as "jobless". An exemple in my family : my sister has a job and seeks a better one closer to her home. She's one of the 5.5 million job seekers. And she's not alone.
3- Macron was minister from august 2014 to august 2016. Not from 2012 to 2015.
1 million more jobless people -> wrong.
1 million more jobseekers -> wrong.
Macron's responsability -> wrong.
Note for non french readers : Pole Emploi is the french public agency for jobseekers and jobless benefits payment.
|
On April 26 2017 16:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Le Pen goes full alterantive facts on TF1 apparently. Not all that surprising, the FN has made lies its trademark. sourceMany friends who voted Mélenchon refusing to vote Macron. Apparently the Berniebros don't have the monopoly on political immaturity.
What did you vote? Hamon?
|
On April 26 2017 07:54 Shield wrote:
Do you think we should all know French? :D
They do. From my experience, the critical number of French people required for them to switch to exclusively French is three.
|
On April 26 2017 17:22 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 16:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Le Pen goes full alterantive facts on TF1 apparently. Not all that surprising, the FN has made lies its trademark. sourceMany friends who voted Mélenchon refusing to vote Macron. Apparently the Berniebros don't have the monopoly on political immaturity. What did you vote? Hamon?
He said earlier in this thread that he reluctantly voted for Mélenchon and regrets it now.
I don't see how it is "immature" to not vote for someone who you do not support. It is merely exercising your democratic right.
|
On April 26 2017 18:39 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 07:54 Shield wrote:
Do you think we should all know French? :D They do. From my experience, the critical number of French people required for them to switch to exclusively French is three.
Depends on the region tbh. In Paris it is one, in the Midi-Pyrénées I've found it to be closer to 10'ish.
|
On April 26 2017 18:51 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 17:22 RvB wrote:On April 26 2017 16:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Le Pen goes full alterantive facts on TF1 apparently. Not all that surprising, the FN has made lies its trademark. sourceMany friends who voted Mélenchon refusing to vote Macron. Apparently the Berniebros don't have the monopoly on political immaturity. What did you vote? Hamon? He said earlier in this thread that he reluctantly voted for Mélenchon and regrets it now. I don't see how it is "immature" to not vote for someone who you do not support. It is merely exercising your democratic right.
I wouldn't call it immature. I would call it dumb.
Someone is going to become President, you get to vote which of the two and by not voting for the candidate who is more towards your preference but not quite what you want, you increase the chance of getting the opposite candidate.
|
France12886 Posts
On April 26 2017 18:57 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 18:51 a_flayer wrote:On April 26 2017 17:22 RvB wrote:On April 26 2017 16:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Le Pen goes full alterantive facts on TF1 apparently. Not all that surprising, the FN has made lies its trademark. sourceMany friends who voted Mélenchon refusing to vote Macron. Apparently the Berniebros don't have the monopoly on political immaturity. What did you vote? Hamon? He said earlier in this thread that he reluctantly voted for Mélenchon and regrets it now. I don't see how it is "immature" to not vote for someone who you do not support. It is merely exercising your democratic right. I wouldn't call it immature. I would call it dumb. Someone is going to become President, you get to vote which of the two and by not voting for the candidate who is more towards your preference but not quite what you want, you increase the chance of getting the opposite candidate.
You should not use logic when discussing such matters, it makes them fly away
|
So you know for a fact that Macron is more towards what those Melenchon voters who are not voting for Macron or Le Pen want? That seems like quite an assumption.
Edit: What if you're someone who is convinced that France should leave the EU, and that's why you voted for Melenchon? How could you possibly then vote for Macron? You might not find Le Pen tasteful enough, and so you abstain. Seems like a perfectly sensible choice to me. Aside, of course, from the fact that I'd disagree with leaving the EU, but its ludicrous to suggest that you know what people want, and who they consider the lesser evil.
|
On April 26 2017 18:51 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2017 17:22 RvB wrote:On April 26 2017 16:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Le Pen goes full alterantive facts on TF1 apparently. Not all that surprising, the FN has made lies its trademark. sourceMany friends who voted Mélenchon refusing to vote Macron. Apparently the Berniebros don't have the monopoly on political immaturity. What did you vote? Hamon? He said earlier in this thread that he reluctantly voted for Mélenchon and regrets it now. I don't see how it is "immature" to not vote for someone who you do not support. It is merely exercising your democratic right.
Voting is not only about getting what you want. It's also a resonsibility. Doing stuff you don't really want to do and don't really like because it's your responsibility is what defines maturity. I don't really want either to vote for Macron, I don't find it fun. But it's time to get real, it's him, or Le Pen.
There is no question that Macron is a much, much, MUCH lesser evil than Le Pen, just as for a Berniebro, Clinton was a lesser evil than Trump. I feel Melenchon and his goons are butthurt, and they stop playing the game because they didn't get exactly what they wanted.
|
On April 26 2017 19:04 a_flayer wrote:
So you know for a fact that Macron is more towards what those people who are not voting for him want?
Yes, I know it for a fact.
|
France12886 Posts
On April 26 2017 19:04 a_flayer wrote:
So you know for a fact that Macron is more towards what those Melenchon voters who are not voting for Macron or Le Pen want? That seems like quite an assumption.
Edit: What if you're someone who is convinced that France should leave the EU, and that's why you voted for Melenchon? How could possibly then vote for Macron? You might not find Le Pen tasteful enough, and so you abstain. Seems perfectly sensible choices to me. Aside, of course, from the fact that I'd disagree with leaving the EU, but its ludicrous to suggest that you know what people want, and who they consider the lesser evil.
It's pretty trivial tbh, you know for a fact that people, on average, want the best for themselves, and you know for a fact that MLP is the worst for most of them.
You are welcome
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
