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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 746

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21641 Posts
April 02 2017 17:56 GMT
#14901
On April 03 2017 02:32 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2017 23:13 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 02 2017 19:24 Artisreal wrote:
Makes sense to solve problems instead of trying to smash em up. Though imo that's pure rethoric. What the EU and Germany have propageted in the passing months is building up a wall around Europe to keep people out (oh, hi USA, maybe there's more synergy than previously thought here), instead of actually promoting conflict free countries of origin (nothern and sub Saharan Africa or Middle East alike).

The 200 Billion is Trump's fantasy. As far as I read the commitment of 2% GDP, though from 2014, is due only in 2024. That's in 7 years' time. That makes his claim nothing more than populist leverage.

How would you 'promote" a conflict free Africa and Middle-east?

There are no visible diplomatic solutions to the myriad of conflict and re-colonizing the regions under 'civilized" western occupation isn't really popular.

To be honest I have no fucking idea. But there are many smart people (not "Trump smart", really smart) of various groups that can help tackle the problems. From my point of view the society of the respective countries, in form of locals or expats isn't able to participate in the dialogue and we have to invest time and money for sustainable changes in the living conditions and perspectives in the respective countries.
Transfering the value creation of produce like coffe and chocolate to the countries of origin as well as reducing export subsidies for foodstuff might help as well. Actually, is paramount to economic and civic progress, at least in my book.

I do wonder how much good we could do if the West spend it development aid budget on directly improving industry, housing and infrastructure in the 3e world. (~125 billion a year)

However corruption and wars would undo much of that and it is not something you an just solve from around a table. Like the current food crisis's going on which apparently were caused by rival sides purposefully destroying farming area's.

Its also a big problem in my opinion with transferring the value of goods back to them (tho by no means does this mean we shouldn't stop exploiting these regions). The more wealth the common people gather, the more warlords come around to take it away from them.

On April 03 2017 02:36 LegalLord wrote:
Many of those regional conflicts, frankly need to be resolved by the people who live there in their own ways, on their own time scale. Iraq should, at the very least, teach us that "nation building" doesn't work when you have to transform society to do it. Of course, meddling for personal gain just makes it all worse.

Iraq doesn't teach us anything about the peaceful uplifting of nations that we were discussing.

If we wanted to know how to handle violent forced nation building I would rather look towards the colonial era rather then the US's misguided attempt at copying the colonial powers that created it.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
April 02 2017 18:49 GMT
#14902
On April 03 2017 02:56 Gorsameth wrote:
However corruption and wars would undo much of that and it is not something you an just solve from around a table. Like the current food crisis's going on which apparently were caused by rival sides purposefully destroying farming area's.

If only there was some way in which there could be a kind of balance of power between two nations that would prevent one of those nations from just bombing the ever-loving shit out of the other. Some way that one nation didn't receive an endless supply of weapons and wasn't backed by the some of the biggest military forces of the world who let this shit happen.

Oh wait, that kind of talk is Russian propaganda and the ex-KGB thug longing for the days of the Soviet Union. Nevermind.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
April 02 2017 18:58 GMT
#14903
Neither Russia or the US or some geopolitical balance of power can prevent bottom - up civil wars in these regions. People have been butchering each other in tribal conflicts long before those two were around and they'll probably continue to do so.

As Gorsameth is saying, you can't just dump money and goods into some region and hope for the best.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21641 Posts
April 02 2017 18:59 GMT
#14904
On April 03 2017 03:49 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2017 02:56 Gorsameth wrote:
However corruption and wars would undo much of that and it is not something you an just solve from around a table. Like the current food crisis's going on which apparently were caused by rival sides purposefully destroying farming area's.

If only there was some way in which there could be a kind of balance of power between two nations that would prevent one of those nations from just bombing the ever-loving shit out of the other. Some way that one nation didn't receive an endless supply of weapons and wasn't backed by the some of the biggest military forces of the world who let this shit happen.

Oh wait, that kind of talk is Russian propaganda and the ex-KGB thug longing for the days of the Soviet Union. Nevermind.

Hate to break it to you but we did not have fewer conflicts during the Cold war. The 2nd/3e world was filled with proxy wars being wages by the super powers.
One could probably argue that many of the instabilities that still plague the regions can be traced back to these proxy conflicts.

You might not like it but its pretty undeniable that the US hegemony has brought an unequalled period of (relative) peace.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
April 02 2017 19:14 GMT
#14905
The west could maybe not prop up Saudi Arabia as an 'ally' and not sell them an endless supply of weaponry though. The lack of support alone might make them somewhat less eager to flatten a neighbouring country and look for better ways to resolve any conflicts they have.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-02 19:26:17
April 02 2017 19:26 GMT
#14906
the SA relationship is really complicated though. They're pretty reliable as far as fighting ISIS and Al-Qaeda offshoots are concerned because pretty much every terrorist organisation hates the SA regime. They've got a terrible human rights record but militarily they're a pretty important partner. Also importantly they're at least on okay-ish grounds with Israel at this point.
lastpuritan
Profile Joined December 2014
United States540 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-02 23:29:19
April 02 2017 23:24 GMT
#14907
On April 02 2017 22:40 Philoctetes wrote:
The whole NATO thing is just US asking for a handout. The NATO exists, or existed, so that in case of a nuclear WWIII with the Soviet Union, which hasn't existed for over two decades, the battleground, and the area where all the nukes fall, is Europe. Not the US.


The US just wants a handout from the EU. Increase defense budget is just means 'buy more of our arms'.

More arms means more wars. If US drops defense spending, then so can the Russia. Then so can China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia. Then so can Iran. Pakistan, India. And every other country will follow, including the EU. And we can spend money on education, elderly care, expensive science experiments, energy transition, climate change, preventing 600 million people in Africa from having to move because their ancestral grounds literally have become uninhabitable, etc etc.

Trump has 0 credibility. Merkel is just waiting for the right moment to hand him back his absurdly stupid billing request. Only reason why US allies are swallowing Trump's blundering is because they are worried about the US. The US is so weak and so fucked up right now. We do want to win our diplomatic struggles against the US. But we also don't want the US to implode.


It's funny you believe that Merkel thing. Germany became the second biggest NATO country to arm Syrian rebellion after the US. Friends in Iraqi airlines tell me German arm-drops to Kurdish forces constantly rising upon US demand for years. She's just another US affiliate.

I agree your previous point though, Turkish defense budget is expanding due to Kurdish threat on Syrian border. And you can't question TR logic while those militia gets the most deadly weapons like milans, javelins. On the other hand you can't question Kurds as well, since they're targets both for Turks and Assad. We need a better project, but it's too late.

On April 03 2017 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
the SA relationship is really complicated though. They're pretty reliable as far as fighting ISIS and Al-Qaeda offshoots are concerned because pretty much every terrorist organisation hates the SA regime. They've got a terrible human rights record but militarily they're a pretty important partner. Also importantly they're at least on okay-ish grounds with Israel at this point.




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syrian-army-creates-womens-unit-fighting-isis-islamic-state-bashar-al-assad-regime-terror-group-a7558896.html

Doesn't look that reliable. And how do you think they're okay'ish with Israel since they threatened each other last week.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4353586/Syria-threatens-use-SCUD-missiles-Israel.html

Current SA is combination of Shia/jihadist militia from Iran + Afghan mercs + Russians
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
April 02 2017 23:39 GMT
#14908
They're both US allies and in recent times they've become a kind of unofficial anti-Iran coalition.

See for example: http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Saudi-Arabia-Israel-present-de-facto-united-front-against-Iran-481996

I have no idea what Twitter post is supposed to tell me. They're also armed to the teeth and we've kind of run out of allies as Iraq and Syria seem to be moving towards Iran + Russia. Ditching SA for no apparent reason makes not much sense.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
April 02 2017 23:41 GMT
#14909
he uses SA for Syrian Army, I believe. Not for Saudi Arabia.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
April 02 2017 23:45 GMT
#14910
yes, that would make sense. I was confused
lastpuritan
Profile Joined December 2014
United States540 Posts
April 02 2017 23:57 GMT
#14911
Looks like I was confused too.
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-03 10:45:44
April 03 2017 10:45 GMT
#14912
don't know if this is a 'thing' but it's trending on my fb today:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chechen-gays-arrested-killed-reports-say_us_58e12a65e4b0b3918c843db6?
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-03 10:55:11
April 03 2017 10:55 GMT
#14913
“You cannot arrest or repress people who just don’t exist.”

Some people in this world are just out of this world.
passive quaranstream fan
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-03 12:02:32
April 03 2017 11:21 GMT
#14914
somewhat unrelated but I guess there's at least some good things comming out of Trump presidency, at least in Germany:
AfD has lost lots of supporters in the last weeks. And not just in one stray poll or anything like that. They're down to somewhere between 7% and 11% according to what I'm seeing for example here: http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

Reuters says that puts them at where they were around 2015, prior to the refugee crisis

the wikipedia picture shows it quite nicely as well:
[image loading]

AfD is light blue
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4725 Posts
April 03 2017 12:38 GMT
#14915
Looks like terroist attack in Russia. At least ten dead in St. Peteresburg when bomb exploded in metro.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39481770

If it really is terrorist attack is it Caucasus or Syria related?
Pathetic Greta hater.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-03 13:36:07
April 03 2017 13:34 GMT
#14916
On April 03 2017 19:45 FFGenerations wrote:
don't know if this is a 'thing' but it's trending on my fb today:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chechen-gays-arrested-killed-reports-say_us_58e12a65e4b0b3918c843db6?

Not really any independent confirmation. The Russian LGBT community is asking for an investigation into the validity of the report.

On April 03 2017 21:38 Silvanel wrote:
Looks like terroist attack in Russia. At least ten dead in St. Peteresburg when bomb exploded in metro.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39481770

If it really is terrorist attack is it Caucasus or Syria related?

Probably Caucasus considering that this follows the pattern of previous attacks.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 03 2017 14:16 GMT
#14917
Poland accuses Russian air traffic controllers of causing the 2010 crash: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-04-03/poland-charges-russians-with-deliberately-causing-2010-jet-crash
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
April 03 2017 14:26 GMT
#14918
Polands politicians seem to be much impressed by Erdogan. Allegations without proof are his specialty.
passive quaranstream fan
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1388 Posts
April 03 2017 14:28 GMT
#14919
So is that allegation essentially the same conspiracy bullshit as 9/11/chemtrail conspiracies are in America, or is there something to it?
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-03 14:33:11
April 03 2017 14:31 GMT
#14920
On April 03 2017 23:28 LightSpectra wrote:
So is that allegation essentially the same conspiracy bullshit as 9/11/chemtrail conspiracies are in America, or is there something to it?

Depends if you ask a PiS supporter or pretty much anyone else.

Poles do complain that the investigation wasn't as good as they would like but this is definitely more along the lines of conspiratorial populist hoopla.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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