EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 729
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Velr
Switzerland10940 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
And no, Putin is not of the "take back the ex-Soviet nations" school of thought. It exists and has some prominence but Putin is more along the lines of those who believe that ultimately keeping some shitty countries with little to offer afloat isn't really worth the trouble. They don't have that much to offer and as they were in the Warsaw Pact, many of those countries are as much trouble in the EU as they were in the Soviet sphere (from economic AND social perspectives). Furthermore, it does not escape notice that a lot of those populists do have some genuine troubling fascist tendencies, even if they do represent rather solid allies. I'm curious what you actually think Russia should do. Should Russia support Party A who says "Russia is evil super-Hitler plus plus plus" over Party B who says "We should be friendlier with Russia" or "Russia is the bestest kindest most awesomest ever@@" just because Party A is seen in a more favorable light in the European mainstream? Fuck that. If you make an enemy, be prepared to be treated as one. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On March 25 2017 01:43 Biff The Understudy wrote: That poll doesn't mean anything. I would answer yes. I am extremely pro EU, yet i believe it's not working well, needs fixing and is "on the wrong track". The question is wayyyy too vague. Too vague... for what? It's an interesting question and an interesting answer. If you look at the other questions they asked you also find that opinion in the UK is better than in most other EU countries. That must be worrying. I have previously posted polling that showed a clear majority in favour of returning powers to national parliaments with a far smaller number (less than 20%) in favour of more integration. In combination... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 25 2017 01:55 LegalLord wrote: Fuck that. If you make an enemy, be prepared to be treated as one. You have summed up a lot of peoples views of Putin's Russia in general. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On March 25 2017 01:59 Plansix wrote: You have summed up a lot of peoples views of Putin's Russia in general. Your refreshing simplicity of thought is always a great non-addition to every discussion. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10940 Posts
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LightSpectra
United States3100 Posts
That being said, Russia has earned a lot of bad will against themselves for the past 20 years, let's not be naive and pretend that all of the anti-Russian politicians in the west are just making them to be a bogeyman without cause. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
On March 25 2017 01:43 Biff The Understudy wrote: That poll doesn't mean anything. I would answer yes. I am extremely pro EU, yet i believe it's not working well, needs fixing and is "on the wrong track". The question is wayyyy too vague. Yeah, I would also say the EU is on the wrong track but I'm pro EU too. At least we got rid of England which was a huge pain in the ass to get things moving forwards. I'm in favor of a two-speed EU by the way. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Mind you, if the US or EU tried to do the same thing in Russia, whoever was over there trying would likely end up dead. Just think of France just murdered La Pen for speaking with Putin. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3100 Posts
On March 25 2017 02:25 LegalLord wrote: 20 years is kind of an odd choice of a cutoff - 5 (Ukraine), 10 (Georgia), or 30+ (USSR) would be more tied to a specific event. 15-20 years ago Russia was dealing with economic troubles and opposed intervention in Yugoslavia, which seems almost trivial as a point of reference. Was that a meaningful cutoff or just an arbitrary one? Just a round number. How about we go back to 2000, since that's when Putin became president? | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On March 25 2017 02:36 LightSpectra wrote: Just a round number. How about we go back to 2000, since that's when Putin became president? Sure, although keep in mind that Russia's favorability has oscillated quite significantly since then and the current anti-Russian status quo has not been a constant throughout the Putin years. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
I'd rather have Putin forever than a bloody democrat puppet regime installed by West. And this requires dialogue, Le Pen, Trump and other right wingers might be wrong on many points but Russia case ain't one. Funfact: Russian army can devour half of the EU before American help wins the war. That's also a smart attempt to evade nukes for the sake of EU. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 25 2017 02:54 Plansix wrote: The whataboutism is in full effect now. The well known propaganda technique has been given new life on the internet. American liberalism has killed more people then Saddam. What do you have to say about that? Please ignore the topic at hand and dive back through history to every wrong anyone critiquing current Russia committed. On the other hand, Russia is constantly being pointed at as a demon. Trump got elected. What about Russia's involvement! Le Pen has some popularity. What about Russia's involvement! People were dying in Syria. What about Russia's involvement! Ukraine is a mess! It's all about what Russia did! Russia this, Russia that. It just doesn't end. Not to say that they're not involved on the world scene, but I'd much rather look at reasons other than Russia as to why these things are happening. Things like droughts, things like destabilizing various regions of the world, things like local policies of governments. I don't want to look at Russia. Who cares about Russia, they're a pathetically weak country economically and in terms of influence compared certain other countries on these matters. | ||
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
A neoliberal shithole whose countries have the highest quality of life and human development indexes in History. "Funfact: Russian army can devour half of the EU before American help wins the war. That's also a smart attempt to evade nukes for the sake of EU." Yeah the campaign in the Ukraine really shows how mighty the Russian army is. I'm also not sure about your usage of the word 'fact'. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
And the NATO encirclement claims are absolutely ridiculous. Russia occupies one fifth of the habitable space on this planet. This is like some 400 pound man on a plane complaining that his neighbours are invading his personal space. Who is taking this seriously? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 25 2017 03:11 a_flayer wrote: On the other hand, Russia is constantly being pointed at as a demon. Trump got elected. What about Russia's involvement! Le Pen has some popularity. What about Russia's involvement! People were dying in Syria. What about Russia's involvement! Not to say that they're not involved on the world scene, but I'd much rather look at reasons other than Russia as to why these things are happening. Things like droughts, things like destabilizing various regions of the world, things like local policies of governments. I don't want to look at Russia. Who cares about Russia, they're a pathetically weak country economically and in terms of influence compared certain other countries on these matters. I’ve been alive for almost 40 years, I’ve never seen anything like the election in 2016, where there was such outsized influence from parties outside the US. Ever. Of course some of the discussions about Russia are hyperbolic, but that does not change that there are efforts being made by Putin that would never have been attempted even 10 years ago. The only question I have is this, does Putin and his government have my best interest in mind. The answer is always no. They don’t care about me in any way. So I see no reason why I should be comfortable with them attempting to influence the outcome of my nation’s election. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 25 2017 03:16 Plansix wrote: I’ve been alive for almost 40 years, I’ve never seen anything like the election in 2016, where there was such outsized influence from parties outside the US. Ever. Of course some of the discussions about Russia are hyperbolic, but that does not change that there are efforts being made by Putin that would never have been attempted even 10 years ago. The only question I have is this, does Putin and his government have my best interest in mind. The answer is always no. They don’t care about me in any way. So I see no reason why I should be comfortable with them attempting to influence the outcome of my nation’s election. Just think about how the Russians felt when Yeltsin was elected. Never before had they seen such outside influence... You're just upset because the American hegemony is waning. I understand that it is upsetting, and of course your country needs to defend itself from foreign influence. But that's also part of what's happened in Russia when Putin came to power there. And no, the Russians don't have Americans best interests in mind, but the same is true the other way around as well. Every country needs to stick up for themselves in this cruel cruel world. I'm not sure, but wasn't it you that said that countries in the Middle East should get stronger so they can keep the Americans out -- and if not the Americans, then the Chinese, or whatever world power follows up and tries to dominate them? That's literally what Russia did under Putin. That's part of what the EU is about, essentially, as well. It's all a political strongman game in terms of nations. Ideally, I'd like to see all continents/regions build their own trade alliances somewhat similar to the EU with equally strong currencies and political influence and so forth. Having a single power dominate the world in the way that US has done for the past 30 years doesn't work. It wasn't fair when Europe dominated the world, it's not fair now. On March 25 2017 03:15 warding wrote: "I am an internationalist and pro European integration even though I know it's a neoliberal shithole at the moment" A neoliberal shithole whose countries have the highest quality of life and human development indexes in History. "Funfact: Russian army can devour half of the EU before American help wins the war. That's also a smart attempt to evade nukes for the sake of EU." Yeah the campaign in the Ukraine really shows how mighty the Russian army is. I'm also not sure about your usage of the word 'fact'. Last I checked, Russia spends like 80 billion/year on their army. They reduced this by something like 20% for this year (admittedly, partially due to sanctions, I'm sure) -- at least, that's what they told me on the propaganda channel backed by the KGB-thug Vladimir Putin. The EU spends like 200 billion/year combined. I'm not particularly worried about the Russians, to be honest. Except for the nuclear weapons, but I'm just as worried about the Russian nuclear weapons as I am about the American ones. | ||
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