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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7909 Posts
On March 03 2017 21:44 Laurens wrote: To be fair, Germany first asked us if they could pass through. Our king refused. Are we still neutral at that point? Hard to say. "Hi, can my million man army attack France from your territory, that would be lovely. No? THEN IT'S WAAAAR". Sad thing to be stuck between two superpower in time of world conflict  | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Threatening military consequences to Sweden if it joins NATO, is to threaten it with treating it like a NATO member; a circular logic that strains the realm of incredulity; such can be said with a straigh face from the likes of legalord. Where all of these Russian journalists mysteriously disappearing or ending up dead is just misinterpretation. Playing stupid no matter how well put is just playing stupid. Where every country threatened by Russia is somehow not worth invasion as they are "not interesting", but at the same time are a valid target of invasion as it is under Russian sphere of influence (note that includes half of Germany!) and the invasion of Ukraine was not a real military invasion that happened. And then he complains when people point out the mass of contradictions that is legalord's position by claiming he was misinterpreted. At this point I'd rather talk to zeo; at least he doesn't endlessly deflect and contradict himself. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 03 2017 19:56 maybenexttime wrote: I would say that there's a difference between being a target of hostilities and being a transit country for the Red Army. The idea of nuking Vienna was to decapitate Austria in order to grant the Warsaw Pact troops a safe passage. Yeah and the Austrian defensive plan was to give up Vienna anyways and declare it a free city. Still would have been nuked. I understand that this is a war scenario and people worry about other shit then single towns and small countries, but then these military superpowers cannot reasonably demand that these countries don't join a bloc. may as well if you get nuked either way. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4731 Posts
On March 03 2017 19:21 a_flayer wrote: It's not hard to find an evil Pole that says outrageous things. This happened just yesterday afternoon: Source That guy is probably most outrageous loon in polish policy (and competition is fierce). His party never went past the post in polish parlimentary elections. He says a lot of stupid shit, he (and his party) are mostly popular because of their radical pro-freemarket stance not their view on women/minorities/hitler. I know people who voted for him in European Parliment elction to get him out of country  | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1768 Posts
On March 02 2017 12:38 SoSexy wrote: Having an opinion should be banned? Thank you, Light Spectra. Unbelievable. I meant what I said - I like the FN, so I said let's hope this (chaos happening with Fillon) helps her (party to get more votes). If you want to put effort into defending the FN, be my guest. I just think these drive-by posts that are essentially nothing but "yay fascist party!" should be counted as trolling. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28690 Posts
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LightSpectra
United States1768 Posts
Saying "I hope Macron wins" is equally as useless as "I hope Le Pen wins", but it's less inflammatory and troll-ish considering Macron isn't a hatemonger. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 04 2017 00:19 LightSpectra wrote: I'd love to have an open debate with a FN supporter, but that's a far cry from those one-liner posts. Saying "I hope Macron wins" is equally as useless as "I hope Le Pen wins", but it's less inflammatory and troll-ish considering Macron isn't a hatemonger. Good luck finding people to debate with if you label the person they support as hatemongers, and their opinions as inflammatory and troll-ish. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10769 Posts
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
I only unearthed NLtimes and dutchnews as of yet. Which side of the political spectrum are they leaning towards and is there more to take heed of out there? | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1768 Posts
On March 04 2017 00:21 a_flayer wrote: Good luck finding people to debate with if you label the person they support as hatemongers, and their opinions as inflammatory and troll-ish. Yeah, again, I don't mind having an actual debate with a FN supporter, I also don't mind having an actual debate with a Nazi or Klansman. But that's a lot different from randomly posting "Sieg Heil!"s every once in awhile. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On March 03 2017 19:03 Biff The Understudy wrote: LL, I would agree with all you said if Russia was a democracy with a reasonable leader. It happens to be that Russia is governed by Putin, who is a ruthless dictator surrounded bya bunch of kleptocrats. You can't just ignore that and look at the situation as if it didn't matter. If you want to say that it's not particularly democratic, that's fair. It's more democratic than it used to be, but it's true that a democratic system isn't built in a single day. He is neither a dictator nor an unreasonable leader. As for the oligarchs, there is something of a historical reason for that. The long and short of it is that you can't put your nation's entire wealthy class in prison without disastrous consequences. So Putin did the next best thing: gave them the choice of either "going legit" as a wealthy member of society who doesn't do more crime, or prison. It's not even been two decades - but the "corruption" is actually cleaning itself up quite well - things were just starting from a very low point. On March 03 2017 19:03 Biff The Understudy wrote: I work with people coming from former USSR. A huge majority want to emancipate from Russia's sphere of influence, because the country has nothing to offer but bullying and corruption. A biased sample, don't you think? People who come Westward being anti-Russian on average, such insight! I could tell you about how those traveling Russiaward tend to be different in that regard or talk about my own experience with Warsaw (USSR times) and ex-Warsaw folk... but I don't think I could give my honest opinion there without making every single Warsaw/USSR person here have every reason to hate me. On March 03 2017 19:03 Biff The Understudy wrote: Look at who governs Chechnya today. A warlord who keeps a region known for terrorism in line. Chechnya article for your reading. No illusions about it, he's a warlord who's only kept around for the reason that he keeps the peace. The perils of having a terror cell within your borders. On March 03 2017 19:03 Biff The Understudy wrote: And when they do, they can expect the russian tanks in their street the next day. It happened in Ukrain, in Georgia. Georgia: you attack Russian peacekeepers and yes, you probably can expect tanks in the streets. Don't think that's controversial. Hell, even Georgia itself has started to figure out that there isn't a military solution against Russia - and things have actually significantly improved in Russo-Georgian relations after Saakashvili departed. Mind you, he's a wanted criminal in his own country at this point. Ukraine: Half the country marched in support of Russia after Yanukovich was removed. The core of the fighting was done by Ukrainians. Not unreasonable to send advisors and minor military aid to a friendly party in a neighboring nation in a civil war - the Ukrainian government added much worse to their ranks in their obvious desperation. Again, it's interesting that these particularly virulent anti-Russians happen to be the scummiest of scum, is it not? On March 03 2017 19:03 Biff The Understudy wrote: Call me naive but if when a small neighbour country reposition himself and wants to get out of your sphere of influence, you send your tanks and invade it, you are probably not really a positive force in the world. Naive? Perhaps dealing with incomplete and tailored-to-be-anti-Russian information. It's a well-acknowledged problem within Russia that through the years they never properly invested in allowing people to see a competing narrative. Say what you will of them, but RT and Sputnik are among the first outreach efforts of their kind and are a genuine step forward in that regard. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 04 2017 00:39 LightSpectra wrote: Yeah, again, I don't mind having an actual debate with a FN supporter, I also don't mind having an actual debate with a Nazi or Klansman. But that's a lot different from randomly posting "Sieg Heil!"s every once in awhile. Yes, but again, while you're saying you want a debate with these people, you're basically insulting them at the same time - comparing them with nazis and fascists. How do you reckon that will go down on their end? Does that seem like something that might lead to a constructive debate? How did it go down when Hillary called the mindless racist sexist idiots that support Trump "deplorables" ? "Hi sub-human scum, do you want to hold a conversation?" In that same light, I've always found it kind of odd that the Prime Minister of the Netherlands says in advance that he won't work with Wilders in a coalition party when they both get roughly the same amount of votes, and then accuses him of dividing the country. You're doing sort of the same, by accusing that FN supporter of being inflammatory and trollish while at the same time suggesting he's a fascist or a nazi, which is quite inflammatory and trollish in my opinion. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1768 Posts
On March 04 2017 00:56 a_flayer wrote: Yes, but again, while you're saying you want a debate with these people, you're basically insulting them at the same time - comparing them with nazis and fascists. How do you reckon that will go down on their end? Does that seem like something that might lead to a constructive debate? How did it go down when Hillary called the mindless racist sexist idiots that support Trump "deplorables" ? "Hi sub-human scum, do you want to hold a conversation?" In that same light, I've always found it kind of odd that the Prime Minister of the Netherlands says in advance that he won't work with Wilders in a coalition party when they both get roughly the same amount of votes, and then accuses him of dividing the country. You're doing sort of the same, by accusing that FN supporter of being inflammatory and trollish while at the same time suggesting he's a fascist or a nazi, which is quite inflammatory and trollish in my opinion. I'm sorry, why exactly is it insulting to be called a Nazi or fascist? Does that seem like something that might lead to a constructive debate with Nazis/fascists? You realize you're poisoning the well there, right? | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 04 2017 00:59 LightSpectra wrote: I'm sorry, why exactly is it insulting to be called a Nazi or fascist? Does that seem like something that might lead to a constructive debate with Nazis/fascists? You realize you're poisoning the well there, right? Alright man. I just think it's way overdrawn to say these people are fascists and nazis, but apparently you are absolutely certain that is the only way to describe their political views. I see we have a disagreement here, and I don't think it can be resolved. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21815 Posts
On March 04 2017 01:02 a_flayer wrote: Alright man. I just think it's way overdrawn to say these people are fascists and nazis, but apparently you are absolutely certain that is the only way to describe their political views. I see we have a disagreement here, and I don't think it can be resolved. How would you call someone who calls for the mass deportation of people of a certain ethnicity? | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On March 03 2017 19:10 maybenexttime wrote: I don't know how one can misinterpret Putin killing journalists who dig too deep or his political enemies. It is what it is. Most Western commentators who talk about it admit that, at best, Putin creates an environment where such killings seem acceptable - rather than having his hand directly in the act. A debatable statement, but a far cry from the original. The original statement is oft-repeated as if it were fact though. On March 03 2017 19:10 maybenexttime wrote: Russian news is mostly propaganda (not to say that Western media do not lie; but there's certainly more pluralism). Some is, some isn't. The blatant propaganda outlets like 1tv are. Others, like lenta, not so much. RT is RT, lol. Western media is available too, for those who like a Western perspective. Not to say it couldn't be better. I don't like the obviously biased shows with guests invited to make themselves look like fools either. But everyone has those and it's a worldwide problem. On March 03 2017 19:10 maybenexttime wrote: It creates an alternative reality in which the USSR did not closely collaborate with Nazi Germany to start WW2. In which the Red Army liberated lands conquered by Germans so that they could be rebuilt and prosper, and not to treat them like colonies. Russians are being taught alternative history, where key facts are being ignored. This is meant to create a context: those ungrateful Eastern Europeans turned away from us, after all we have done for them, and now they blindly hate anything Russian. lol (if we're talking about alternate reality controlling the narrative) | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18058 Posts
On March 04 2017 00:56 a_flayer wrote: Yes, but again, while you're saying you want a debate with these people, you're basically insulting them at the same time - comparing them with nazis and fascists. How do you reckon that will go down on their end? Does that seem like something that might lead to a constructive debate? How did it go down when Hillary called the mindless racist sexist idiots that support Trump "deplorables" ? "Hi sub-human scum, do you want to hold a conversation?" In that same light, I've always found it kind of odd that the Prime Minister of the Netherlands says in advance that he won't work with Wilders in a coalition party when they both get roughly the same amount of votes, and then accuses him of dividing the country. You're doing sort of the same, by accusing that FN supporter of being inflammatory and trollish while at the same time suggesting he's a fascist or a nazi, which is quite inflammatory and trollish in my opinion. The paradox of tolerance: should a tolerant person be tolerant of intolerance? Imho, no. Wilders and his basket of deplorables can go and yell in the corner. Yes, his constituents are upset about valid concerns. No, their way for "dealing" with those concerns are not acceptable policy. And as long as that is their main (and only) concern, there doesn't seem to be any point in dealing with him. I can't see VVD agreeing to a Nexit referendum in a coalition (and if they do, it should be the end of them: they have always portrayed themselves as one of the most pro-Europe parties in the Netherlands). The VVD could probably take a harder stance on migration than they'd normally like to, but that's about it for things that the PVV cares for. It basically means that any "negotiation" about a coalition together is doomed to: 1) fail 2) succeed but be completely onesided in favour of one of the two parties (and thus blow up, just as the previous VVD-PVV coalition did... which was technically a VVD-CDA coalition with PVV support). | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On March 04 2017 01:07 Gorsameth wrote: How would you call someone who calls for the mass deportation of people of a certain ethnicity? Concerned citizen of course | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 04 2017 00:56 a_flayer wrote: Yes, but again, while you're saying you want a debate with these people, you're basically insulting them at the same time - comparing them with nazis and fascists. How do you reckon that will go down on their end? Does that seem like something that might lead to a constructive debate? How did it go down when Hillary called the mindless racist sexist idiots that support Trump "deplorables" ? "Hi sub-human scum, do you want to hold a conversation?" You probably overlooked the part where far-right ideologies are the ones which consider by default large parts of the humanity as “sub-human scum”. | ||
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