• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:37
CEST 02:37
KST 09:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202530RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams2Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Corsair Pursuit Micro?
Tourneys
[CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 594 users

European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 690

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 688 689 690 691 692 1413 Next
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 02 2017 15:09 GMT
#13781
True?

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21665 Posts
March 02 2017 15:30 GMT
#13782
On March 03 2017 00:09 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
True?

https://twitter.com/ClaraJeffery/status/837312957201580032

Reuters has it aswell

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-military-idUSKBN1690ND

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-02 15:44:39
March 02 2017 15:42 GMT
#13783
In all honesty conscription is something of an outdated practice. The days when mobilizing lots of troops for the purpose of having a bigger army being effective are gone. Certainly, it might come with some benefit to have more easily trained reservists - a mandatory military service has non-military benefits as well, for example - but in the modern world the more important factor is technology and experience. Conscripts simply aren't very good for using advanced technology that takes many years to learn and such technologies are what actually matters for most regular fighting. For irregular fighting (basically just occupation of a foreign country where gorilla warfare is a concern) more troops are useful but I doubt there's a lot of countries that care about that.

From the above article:
A government investigation last year found that with unemployment near zero among the talented youngsters the armed forces targets, only about 2,500 were recruited annually while the military needed 4,000.

The wages for professional soldiers run well below the national average for the age group, providing little monetary incentive, while the pool of potential recruits, primarily former conscripts from before 2010, has steadily shrunk.

"This buffer is now exhausted and that leaves great challenges in recruiting," said Johan Osterberg, a researcher in staffing at the Swedish Defense University.


Here's where the real problem lies. Pay them better.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 02 2017 15:45 GMT
#13784
Only 4,000 a year. I'm guessing that is the start of the program and will get larger as time passes.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 02 2017 15:58 GMT
#13785
On March 02 2017 17:56 maybenexttime wrote:
If Russia does not want enemies on its borders, then it probably should stop making them. For centuries Russia has been a major bully in the region. When you try to be on good terms with that country, it sees it as a weakness and abuses that. Germany was Poland's mortal enemy for a thousand years. Now we are on good terms and have a relatively healthy relationship. Change is possible, but requires good will on both sides.

On this point, at least, I could give some qualified agreement. While it's true that Russia has very good reason for being unfriendly with certain neighbors, I do think that more should be done in the way of good-willed cultural outreach. That has indeed been a historic shortfall. Hell, only recently did the Russian government realize that it was a pretty good idea to reach out to Israel - a country that, whether or not it would want to admit it, has important cultural ties to Russia. And that's a matter that's a few decades later than it should have been.

I say it's qualified agreement, though, because "talk shit get hit" is something that Russia's neighbors should keep in mind as well. But I do agree that Russia should have and should continue to do more in fostering friendlier relations abroad. Putin is well ahead of the Soviets in that regard for that matter, though it's still not really enough.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28664 Posts
March 02 2017 15:59 GMT
#13786
sweden isn't even part of nato though. This is definitely related to russian developments, but I dunno if Trump deserves any (negative) credit. I recently read about some swedish military expert lamenting over how the swedish army is the by far weakest it has ever been - their position of neutrality has historically been coupled with a relatively strong army, now they have a position of neutrality combined with the weakest army they've ever had, and with how the world seems an increasingly dangerous place, I guess they weren't comfortable with that anymore.

Based on my memory of some article I read a while back anymore, if any swede wants to correct me I encourage that. ;p
Moderator
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21665 Posts
March 02 2017 16:06 GMT
#13787
On March 03 2017 00:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
sweden isn't even part of nato though. This is definitely related to russian developments, but I dunno if Trump deserves any (negative) credit. I recently read about some swedish military expert lamenting over how the swedish army is the by far weakest it has ever been - their position of neutrality has historically been coupled with a relatively strong army, now they have a position of neutrality combined with the weakest army they've ever had, and with how the world seems an increasingly dangerous place, I guess they weren't comfortable with that anymore.

Based on my memory of some article I read a while back anymore, if any swede wants to correct me I encourage that. ;p

They have made some advances towards joining Nato. At which point Russia outright threatened invasion. Source
(A good one for LL's "Putin does not mean bad")
Can't blame them for wanting to maintain military readiness.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Nixer
Profile Joined July 2011
2774 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-02 16:59:09
March 02 2017 16:58 GMT
#13788
On March 03 2017 00:42 LegalLord wrote:
In all honesty conscription is something of an outdated practice. The days when mobilizing lots of troops for the purpose of having a bigger army being effective are gone. Certainly, it might come with some benefit to have more easily trained reservists - a mandatory military service has non-military benefits as well, for example - but in the modern world the more important factor is technology and experience. Conscripts simply aren't very good for using advanced technology that takes many years to learn and such technologies are what actually matters for most regular fighting. For irregular fighting (basically just occupation of a foreign country where gorilla warfare is a concern) more troops are useful but I doubt there's a lot of countries that care about that.

From the above article:
Show nested quote +
A government investigation last year found that with unemployment near zero among the talented youngsters the armed forces targets, only about 2,500 were recruited annually while the military needed 4,000.

The wages for professional soldiers run well below the national average for the age group, providing little monetary incentive, while the pool of potential recruits, primarily former conscripts from before 2010, has steadily shrunk.

"This buffer is now exhausted and that leaves great challenges in recruiting," said Johan Osterberg, a researcher in staffing at the Swedish Defense University.


Here's where the real problem lies. Pay them better.

For a small country some form of conscription is typically the only cost effective way you can bolster your military and defense. The effectiveness of conscript troops, and reserves as training doesn't or shouldn't end after your conscription service, can be more or less the same as professional troops. You have to remember that the average professional soldier gets the same amount of training as a conscript before getting into the field and action. The combat effectiveness and level of skill with good training can still be quite respectable. A conscription system obviously doesn't mean there won't be any professional personnel either. I'm not quite sure what you mean by advanced technology here.

They're starting with only 4000 most likely since they can't really logistically (and organizationally) support training more at this time. I guess we still have to remember that Sweden more or less has a "buffer state" between themselves and Russia, hah.
Graphics
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 02 2017 17:42 GMT
#13789
Professional soldiers and conscripts may start at the same level - but one of the two stays around and grows as a military person, the other generally leaves as soon as possible to pursue other paths. And the one that's around longer will become much more effective. While a fully professional service, such as that of the US, is not always possible, professional soldiers should be emphasized as much as possible, followed by educated reservists. Logistics are also a bitch - more personnel, more logistical necessities, of course. Often it leads to a situation where you have lots of soldiers who all make good fodder because they aren't effective.

By advanced technology I mean any of the machines that characterize modern warfare. Drones, airplanes, tanks, artillery, AA, anything else really. Using or maintaining these technologies requires increasingly specialized knowledge, and usually a conscript who did little more than go through basic training is going to be less useful than someone who has used the technology for a few years and understands how to use it effectively. And professional soldiers are around for longer.

Looking at the article it's clear that Sweden isn't spending what it needs to on its military to make it work. Nothing wrong with wanting more troops but perhaps they should spend the money to make military service lucrative enough to entice people to join. Might be expensive but it's what's necessary if you want a better, not just bigger, military.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Dav1oN
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine3164 Posts
March 02 2017 17:53 GMT
#13790
So Sweden gov. expects russian troops to seed some "freedom" for russian-speaking population directly in Sweden?
In memory of Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson 11.09.1985 - 21.07.2019 A tribute to incredible man, embodiment of joy, esports titan, starcraft community pillar all in one. You will always be remembered!
Nixer
Profile Joined July 2011
2774 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-02 18:44:09
March 02 2017 18:38 GMT
#13791
On March 03 2017 02:42 LegalLord wrote:
Professional soldiers and conscripts may start at the same level - but one of the two stays around and grows as a military person, the other generally leaves as soon as possible to pursue other paths. And the one that's around longer will become much more effective. While a fully professional service, such as that of the US, is not always possible, professional soldiers should be emphasized as much as possible, followed by educated reservists. Logistics are also a bitch - more personnel, more logistical necessities, of course. Often it leads to a situation where you have lots of soldiers who all make good fodder because they aren't effective.

By advanced technology I mean any of the machines that characterize modern warfare. Drones, airplanes, tanks, artillery, AA, anything else really. Using or maintaining these technologies requires increasingly specialized knowledge, and usually a conscript who did little more than go through basic training is going to be less useful than someone who has used the technology for a few years and understands how to use it effectively. And professional soldiers are around for longer.

Looking at the article it's clear that Sweden isn't spending what it needs to on its military to make it work. Nothing wrong with wanting more troops but perhaps they should spend the money to make military service lucrative enough to entice people to join. Might be expensive but it's what's necessary if you want a better, not just bigger, military.

Most of what you described would and should be handled well by conscripts. Except for the military aircraft of course but like I said you have actual professionals for that among other things. Still I certainly don't see a larger and majority professional army as a requirement considering how expensive that would be. The minimal conscription time and training Swedish conscripts went through before the abolishment roughly 7 years ago was a bit more than just basic training I might add.

Professional troops don't get to partake in constant training and military exercises all the time while in service either, this seems to be quite a common misconception. But yes they'll be more familiar with their respective equipment, there's no doubting that, but not to an extreme degree where the general combat effectiveness somehow would be a lot worse. Nor are they magically super soldiers, those don't exist yet by the way, since there wouldn't be much difference in equipment between a standard conscript and a professional grunt. One thing that's quite interesting and important to note is that even though professional soldiers are usually more individually skilled and fit an actual force of conscripts can be better or at the very least on par as far as unit combat effectiveness goes. Might sound strange but that's just how it is. The explanation for this is generally that with conscription you'll have a larger sample of types of people to pick from. Now this of course depends on the model of conscription to an extent but the basic principle of it is still there. When it's completely voluntary recruitment, especially with low wages so you're certainly right about that, the type of soldier you end up with is almost always the same. That's the most simple explanation I can give you.

Now I do agree that the spending is quite pathetic, there's quite a severe lack of materiel generally speaking as a result of voluntary downsizing.

But the bottom line is fairly simple, it's just not really realistic for Sweden in their situation and size to not use a conscription model if they wish to increase their military presence unless they wish to spend a lot more. That's just part of their analysis. I'm fairly certain military experts and those involved know what they're on about as well so it's not like you somehow found a magical solution. Also we have to remember what kind of signal this sends.

+ Show Spoiler +
Please don't start babbling about hidden cost because that's an endless pit and as far as I'm concerned a complete waste of time.


btw this is quite far from actual conscription
Graphics
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 02 2017 18:45 GMT
#13792
So basically this is about trying to increase military size without spending much more money? I mean, worth a shot, but I don't foresee it ending well. I doubt it would increase effectiveness in the way one would hope. And of course the message it sends is a little bit... unfortunate.

"Military experts say this is how it should work" is sort of a copout unless they provide reasoning. What do you mean by "hidden costs?" I didn't say anything there so I'm curious what that even means in this context.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-02 19:18:00
March 02 2017 19:17 GMT
#13793
Does anyone have some interesting news on Fillion's house being searched?
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-02 20:13:31
March 02 2017 19:30 GMT
#13794
On March 03 2017 04:17 Big J wrote:
Does anyone have some interesting news on Fillion's house being searched?

Nothing particular I think, it's part of the investigation.

The interesting thing is that more and more people are leaving his campaign. Juppé's lieutenants dropped out today. Some elected representatives from the right published a text in the press to ask for Fillon's withdrawal.

On the other side, a demonstration is scheduled Sunday to support him.

Edit: according to some poll today, 75% of the French want Fillon to withdraw (47% for UMP/LR sympathizers).
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
March 02 2017 21:25 GMT
#13795
Sweden reintroduces the draft due to Russian threatening Sweden with mock bombing runs. Legalord is against the idea of any country resisting itself against the great mother Russia. Yawn.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21665 Posts
March 02 2017 21:30 GMT
#13796
On March 03 2017 06:25 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Sweden reintroduces the draft due to Russian threatening Sweden with mock bombing runs. Legalord is against the idea of any country resisting itself against the great mother Russia. Yawn.

And the threat of invasion if they join Nato. (see my earlier post for a source)
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 02 2017 21:35 GMT
#13797
Both of you need a lesson in reading comprehension it seems, considering nothing of the sort was said.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7887 Posts
March 02 2017 22:15 GMT
#13798
On March 03 2017 06:35 LegalLord wrote:
Both of you need a lesson in reading comprehension it seems, considering nothing of the sort was said.

And what is your position on Russia's attitude towards Sweden?
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-02 22:23:24
March 02 2017 22:19 GMT
#13799
On March 03 2017 07:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2017 06:35 LegalLord wrote:
Both of you need a lesson in reading comprehension it seems, considering nothing of the sort was said.

And what is your position on Russia's attitude towards Sweden?

That there "will be consequences" if Sweden joins NATO? A reasonable statement of fact.

Airspace violations and the like? I'm not a fan, I think it sends the wrong message.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
March 02 2017 22:30 GMT
#13800
Sweden is irrelevant here, nicely cushioned between two nations that take their defence very seriously. Finland, on the other hand, is certainly not.

Also, conscription at this scale is just bizarre. If you can't motivate a couple of thousand people to join your military with some incentive rather than force then there is something wrong.
Prev 1 688 689 690 691 692 1413 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 133
ProTech53
SpeCial 0
StarCraft: Brood War
NaDa 78
Aegong 60
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1111
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Cuddl3bear1
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1395
Coldzera 413
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox346
AZ_Axe100
Other Games
tarik_tv8949
Day[9].tv1244
shahzam522
ViBE203
C9.Mang0201
Maynarde172
Livibee62
Liquid`Ken12
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1354
BasetradeTV27
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 45
• rockletztv 15
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5063
Other Games
• Scarra1419
• Day9tv1244
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
9h 24m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs ShoWTimE
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 9h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.