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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 03 2016 04:54 Incognoto wrote:
We should all retire at 55 years, just like EDF and SNCF! So great working for the state, you're so much more privileged and you're also not private-sector liberal scum.
Life expectancy is longer than before? No problem, the young will pay! 35 hours / week? God please no, let's work less and create less wealth. That will for sure make France great again!
Meanwhile
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/18/richest-62-billionaires-wealthy-half-world-population-combined
Moreover, life expancy begins to fall down in France with the rarification of generalists.
Btw, before you use the traditional rhetoric of "les assistés", a lot of people already work more than 50 hours/weeks, but in order to know this, I guess you must work in order to have your pay.
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On December 03 2016 21:16 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 08:09 TheDwf wrote:On December 03 2016 06:37 RvB wrote:On December 03 2016 06:10 Sent. wrote:On December 03 2016 04:54 Incognoto wrote:
We should all retire at 55 years, just like EDF and SNCF! So great working for the state, you're so much more privileged and you're also not private-sector liberal scum.
Life expectancy is longer than before? No problem, the young will pay! 35 hours / week? God please no, let's work less and create less wealth. That will for sure make France great again! Early retirment ages in public sector tend to be bullshit but if I understood correctly Fillon wants to raise the retirement age for everyone (why would you say that before the election btw? sounds reckless) which is bad for blue collar workers since usually human bodies age faster than human minds. People who work in services probably want to work longer but expecting physical workers with no education to work till 65 is uh... problematic. Raising the retirement age will force them to change their jobs to something less profitable unless you'll legally force their employers to keep such flawed workers which is also bad because A) they aren't as productive as younger people and B) younger people can't get their jobs. My country raised the retirement age to 65 recently and that was one of the main reasons why the party responsible for that change lost the elections. If you do that (or promise to do that) don't be surprised when the poorest will tell you to fuck off and cast their vote for Le Pen, Trump or Kaczyński. Yet most countries have a retirement age of 65. Why are they able to make it work but not France or Poland? The question isn't “why wouldn't it work here”. It's a social choice, there is no economic law set in stone somewhere demanding that retirement is to be taken at 65 for all countries. I don't see a problem with older people taking a job where they're less productive. They can take a pay cut in line with their reduced productivity. There's nothing wrong with that. They've already had their most expensive phase in life.
A lower retirement age for women than for men is stupid. Most women live longer and should actually have a higher retirement age. Women have smaller pensions on average because they are paid less and suffer from part-time work and discontinuities more than men. In France, the average pension of a woman is only 58% of the average pension of a man (the gap is a bit smaller for recent generations, but it's still quite large). Rising their legal retirement age would be absolutely ridiculous given how unfair the current situation already is. The situation isn't unfair. Women work less so they get less. In that way pensions work exactly how they should. If you think that it's a problem that women get paid less and work more part time then try to fix that. Trying to fix it via changing the pension system is a bandaid and a terrible one at that. Fun fact: In The Netherlands young women (under 30) make more than young men. This is actually explained by the fact that they're better educated so I think it's fine. Dutch source though. In the long term the wage gap (and in extension the pension gap) will most likely fix itself. www.cbs.nl
Key word being “long term”. As Keynes said, “in the long run we are all dead”. It's not even a joke here, the WEF recently calculated that given the current rhythm, equal pay for men and women would be reached in... 2186. Don't know how reliable this calculation is, but at any rate patriarchy isn't going to disappear any time soon. In the meantime I don't see how using “bandaids” so that pensions for retired women aren't atrociously small(er) is “terrible”. You're probably not an aged woman facing the perspective of a shitty pension because of life, so I guess it helps in being indifferent to the issue.
This is the problem with liberal thinking, it considers society in an abstract way and individuals in a vacuum, so it misses actual power balances and basic realities. If women work less, it's not (necessarily) because they want it, it's because an oppressive social structure cornered them into depreciated jobs with worse conditions (depreciated for no other reason than “because they're mostly feminized professions”). Thus it makes no sense to hide behind the “but the pension system works like this, rules are rules” precisely because its very functioning reproduces and even amplifies that injustice, which has to be compensated in one way or another.
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On December 04 2016 08:59 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 04:54 Incognoto wrote:
We should all retire at 55 years, just like EDF and SNCF! So great working for the state, you're so much more privileged and you're also not private-sector liberal scum.
Life expectancy is longer than before? No problem, the young will pay! 35 hours / week? God please no, let's work less and create less wealth. That will for sure make France great again! Meanwhile https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/18/richest-62-billionaires-wealthy-half-world-population-combinedMoreover, life expancy begins to fall down in France with the rarification of generalists. Btw, before you use the traditional rhetoric of "les assistés", a lot of people already work more than 50 hours/weeks, but in order to know this, I guess you must work in order to have your pay.
Jesus, I'm guessing you didn't read the last 10 pages of this thread. Assuming that, I'll repeat a few things I've said:
- The super-rich aren't the people I'm defending here, it's the rich and middle class.
- The super-rich evade taxes like there's no tomorrow and should be reigned in. However, socialists didn't do jack-shit about tax evasion (this is also a problem in the USA btw) when you'd think that at least someone left-wing would get some accomplished. In fact, no. The socialist minister of whatever which was supposed to fix tax evasion ended up being a tax evader himself. Our politicians are all bought out and corrupt by the super rich.
- Public sector workers retire on average 10 years before their private sector counterparts, that's fucking retarded no matter how you put.
Btw, before you use the traditional rhetoric of "les assistés", a lot of people already work more than 50 hours/weeks, but in order to know this, I guess you must work in order to have your pay.
Just like I did, for the measly pay of €500/month; my contract said 35hr/week but I stayed and worked much longer hours because I wanted my project to succeed. I didn't get paid a cent more for the extra work but I had the satisfaction of knowing that I was bringing something to the table. My boss? Over 70 hours a week, he was #2 in the company I worked in. I had trouble seeing him as he was so busy, setting up new projects for the future, managing current production in the workshop and yet still taking the time to hire very young people like myself in order to teach them things.
All of the people in my inner circles I know work their butt off really, they're all in the private sector and they pay enormous taxes, only to see the public money being squandered on senseless bullshit, such as fucking retarded public sector pensions. Someone in the private sector doesn't know where they'll be in the next 5 years and they know even less what their pension is going to be. Someone in the public sector gets an excel spreadsheet showing all the pay they'll get up to retirement and when they do retire, they know exactly what their pension is. In France, the public sector is ridiculously fucking privileged compared to the private sector. I'm not saying that the public sector is full of useless fucks (probably only half of them are) but yeah I think they can work 39 hours a week. They can retire like everyone else as well. Good going, Fillon.
Anyway, as you can see, in France you have the super-rich which don't pay taxes, the poor which pay no taxes and earn the minimum wage (as French fiscal policy demands that companies be as efficient as possible, the classic "if you can't pay these taxes then shut down your business") and the middle class which pay enormous taxes. You want to give a bonus to someone? The state takes 95% of that bonus.
It's fucking stupid.
Talking about the super rich is also senseless. Newsflash, your governments are corrupt as fuck, just look towards the Panama papers which no one gives a shit about anymore. Your governments are corrupt as fuck and allow the super-rich to do whatever the fuck they want. This isn't an argument against economic freedom and liberalism, talking about the super-rich is an argument against fucking corruption. There isn't a single politician out there who is saying "the super rich must follow the law like everyone else". Aka corruption. Even your socialist saviors haven't been able to do shit about them. I'd love it for someone, anyone, to bring them back in. It would be a huge win for everyone. But no, let's tax the middle class since they can't do anything about it! x)
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How do you work 35h/week and only get 600euro a month? You were doing a service civique weren't you? Otherwise that's simply impossible...
Obviously the super rich should be taxed. Entrepreneur RSI should be fucking lowered as well, it is ridiculous. There are a lot of problems but I don't want to retire at 55, i dont see what the big deal of working at 65 is (very job -dependent a 65 year old macon would most probably be suffering...).
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On December 04 2016 21:20 MyTHicaL wrote:
How do you work 35h/week and only get 600euro a month? You were doing a service civique weren't you? Otherwise that's simply impossible...
Obviously the super rich should be taxed. Entrepreneur RSI should be fucking lowered as well, it is ridiculous. There are a lot of problems but I don't want to retire at 55, i dont see what the big deal of working at 65 is (very job -dependent a 65 year old macon would most probably be suffering...).
Not €600, under €500.
It was an internship. I just wanted to point out that I'm not a stranger to working long(ish) hours, unlike what the other poster insinuated. I was fine with working long hours with a crappy salary (working for free before 9 AM and after 5 PM basically), if it meant learning something and being useful to the company who hired me.
The super rich should be taxed, but they are not. So the middle class pay stupid levels of taxes so that the government can squander the money. When your country spends 56% of its GDP, you'd think that at least the economy wouldn't suck, I mean that is a substantial level of investment. But the economy does suck, because our politicians suck and the money goes to 55 year old public sector retirees. You want the SNCF to retire like everyone else does? strike strike strike strike OK OK OK OK the SNCF is super important (read, they can piss off too many people by striking) so we will give them all the cool advantages they want. The middle class will pay for it!
I think people who work physically hard should probably retire earlier, or at least be given something to do less physical in their older years (e.g. pairing up an older guy with a younger one, you mix experience and physical vigor, plus the younger guy learns the ropes of the job). My uncle is well over 60 and he's still doing plumbing, heating and electricity in peoples' homes, by himself. Yet French non-liberals hate him, because he ran a successful company for 50+ years. I think he lost 40% to 50% of the the company's value when he sold it, never mind that he started from almost nothing. Thanks France. You'll hear non-liberals say that employers are all assholes who parasite the work of their employees. I say bullshit. Running a company or production line is a metric ton fuck of work. I believe that compensation should reflect that, especially since the boss of the company is the one who is basically providing work for other people. We should be thankful but instead we hate them, when we should instead be hating the super-rich who evade taxes am I right, Mr Cahuzac?
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Austria is not letting you down!
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 10 2016 17:12 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +After success in Britain and the U.S., populists are setting their sights on the next five dominoes at risk.
....
Italy referendum
The first test is less than a month off. Italians vote on Dec. 4 in a constitutional referendum that Prime Minister Matteo Renzi says will make governments more stable and streamline legislation. Renzi’s promise to resign if he loses has helped turn the plebiscite into a vote on his premiership. Opinion polls, if they are to be believed, predict a narrow defeat for Renzi, which would boost the anti-establishment Five Star Movement. It could also trigger early elections next year -- meaning that governments accounting for more than 75 percent of the euro area would be in play in just one year.
Comic-turned-politician Beppe Grillo, co-founder of Five Star, said that the Trump win was “incredible” in his online blog. “This is the deflagration of an epoch. It’s the apocalypse of this information system, of the TVs, of the big newspapers, of the intellectuals, of the journalists.” Five Star, which already runs cities including Rome and Turin, calls for a referendum on Italy’s membership of the euro area.
Austria presidency
The same day, Dec. 4, Austrians return to the polls to elect a new president after an earlier attempt was annulled. While in Austria as in neighboring Germany the real power is held by the chancellor, the contest for the mostly ceremonial post of president will be closely watched since it could bring to power the first far-right leader of a western European country since World War II. In May, Green Party candidate Alexander Van der Bellen eked out a victory over the anti-immigration Freedom Party’s Norbert Hofer of about 30,000 votes from the more than 4.5 million cast. Polls suggest the outcome this time around is still too close to call.
For Chancellor Christian Kern, the U.S. vote holds lessons for Europe. “I’m convinced that electoral battles will become fierce battles for the middle classes, and that’s a fight we’ll take on,” he told journalists in Vienna.
Netherlands elections
The Dutch kick off Europe’s unprecedented 2017 voting season with parliamentary elections on March 15. The Netherlands is something of a laboratory for European politics, with unstable, multi-party coalitions the norm and some 13 parties poised to enter parliament next year. Geert Wilders, who leads the anti-Islam Freedom Party -- allied with but no relation to the Austrian party of the same name --- is running neck-and-neck with Prime Minister Mark Rutte’s Liberals (VVD) in some polls. “The people are taking their country back,” tweeted Wilders, who wants to emulate Britain with a “Nexit” vote on European Union membership. “So will we.”
And yet the Netherlands, with more than a decade of experience of populists stretching back to Pim Fortuyn, may use the time to help thwart a Wilders surge. Rutte has ruled out a coalition with the Freedom Party, and it’s hard to see how Wilders could cobble together a working majority if he won the election. “On the one hand, the victory of Trump makes populist politics more accepted,” said Kees Aarts, professor of political science at Groningen University. “But on the other, all parties and politicians that might have still been a little asleep regarding the March elections, are now wide awake.’’
French presidency
French voters have twice backed the National Front to the runoff stage of elections, under two separate generations of Le Pens, only to back away from the anti-immigration party at the last moment. Brexit and Trump’s victory show nothing can be taken for granted in the presidential election second round on May 7.
With Hollande the most unpopular president in French history and his deeply disliked predecessor Nicolas Sarkozy vying to ride the Republican nomination to a comeback, Marine Le Pen may have an opening. The only head of a major French political party to have backed Trump, she congratulated him in a post on Twitter referring to “the American people, free!” Le Pen later said she trusted the French, “who cherish their liberty,” would break with the system which was “shackling them.”
“Up to now everybody in France has said, just as all kind of informed opinion so-called in America has said, ‘Oh well, Trump cannot win, Marine le Pen cannot win,”’ Howard Davies, Chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland, told Bloomberg TV’s Tom Keene. “Well, I think there’ll be a lot of people asking themselves if that really is quite so certain, and so I think the French will be very nervous.”
Germany elections
Germany, with its constitutional checks and balances intended to prevent dictatorial bents, is also the European country most resistant to populism. Federal elections in the fall of 2017 will show if that postwar assumption still holds.
Frauke Petry, co-leader of the anti-immigration Alternative for Germany party, sees Trump’s victory as a lesson for Germany. “Just as Americans didn’t believe the pollsters of the mainstream media, Germans also must have the courage to make their mark at the ballot box themselves,” Petry said.
Chancellor Angela Merkel, who has yet to reveal whether she will run again, has already suffered a series of regional election defeats on the back of an open-door refugee policy denounced by AfD and described as “insane” by Trump. The Republican’s surprise victory might just tip her in favor of seeking a fourth term. www.bloomberg.com
Today start this string of populist challenges. Let's see what happens. Counting starts soon.
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On December 05 2016 01:09 Big J wrote:
Austria is not letting you down!
When will the results be known?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
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On December 05 2016 01:11 TheDwf wrote:When will the results be known?
First calculations say 53,6 for VdB. Final results including foreign voters and stuff will take till tomorrow evening or even tuesday.
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On December 05 2016 01:11 TheDwf wrote:When will the results be known?
for italy I think I read somewhere that it closes 22:00 (local time? German time?) so surely not before that
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 05 2016 01:20 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 01:11 TheDwf wrote:On December 05 2016 01:09 Big J wrote:
Austria is not letting you down! When will the results be known? for italy I think I read somewhere that it closes 22:00 (local time? German time?) so surely not before that
Should be the same time zone.
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On December 05 2016 01:10 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 17:12 RvB wrote:After success in Britain and the U.S., populists are setting their sights on the next five dominoes at risk.
....
Italy referendum
The first test is less than a month off. Italians vote on Dec. 4 in a constitutional referendum that Prime Minister Matteo Renzi says will make governments more stable and streamline legislation. Renzi’s promise to resign if he loses has helped turn the plebiscite into a vote on his premiership. Opinion polls, if they are to be believed, predict a narrow defeat for Renzi, which would boost the anti-establishment Five Star Movement. It could also trigger early elections next year -- meaning that governments accounting for more than 75 percent of the euro area would be in play in just one year.
Comic-turned-politician Beppe Grillo, co-founder of Five Star, said that the Trump win was “incredible” in his online blog. “This is the deflagration of an epoch. It’s the apocalypse of this information system, of the TVs, of the big newspapers, of the intellectuals, of the journalists.” Five Star, which already runs cities including Rome and Turin, calls for a referendum on Italy’s membership of the euro area.
Austria presidency
The same day, Dec. 4, Austrians return to the polls to elect a new president after an earlier attempt was annulled. While in Austria as in neighboring Germany the real power is held by the chancellor, the contest for the mostly ceremonial post of president will be closely watched since it could bring to power the first far-right leader of a western European country since World War II. In May, Green Party candidate Alexander Van der Bellen eked out a victory over the anti-immigration Freedom Party’s Norbert Hofer of about 30,000 votes from the more than 4.5 million cast. Polls suggest the outcome this time around is still too close to call.
For Chancellor Christian Kern, the U.S. vote holds lessons for Europe. “I’m convinced that electoral battles will become fierce battles for the middle classes, and that’s a fight we’ll take on,” he told journalists in Vienna.
Netherlands elections
The Dutch kick off Europe’s unprecedented 2017 voting season with parliamentary elections on March 15. The Netherlands is something of a laboratory for European politics, with unstable, multi-party coalitions the norm and some 13 parties poised to enter parliament next year. Geert Wilders, who leads the anti-Islam Freedom Party -- allied with but no relation to the Austrian party of the same name --- is running neck-and-neck with Prime Minister Mark Rutte’s Liberals (VVD) in some polls. “The people are taking their country back,” tweeted Wilders, who wants to emulate Britain with a “Nexit” vote on European Union membership. “So will we.”
And yet the Netherlands, with more than a decade of experience of populists stretching back to Pim Fortuyn, may use the time to help thwart a Wilders surge. Rutte has ruled out a coalition with the Freedom Party, and it’s hard to see how Wilders could cobble together a working majority if he won the election. “On the one hand, the victory of Trump makes populist politics more accepted,” said Kees Aarts, professor of political science at Groningen University. “But on the other, all parties and politicians that might have still been a little asleep regarding the March elections, are now wide awake.’’
French presidency
French voters have twice backed the National Front to the runoff stage of elections, under two separate generations of Le Pens, only to back away from the anti-immigration party at the last moment. Brexit and Trump’s victory show nothing can be taken for granted in the presidential election second round on May 7.
With Hollande the most unpopular president in French history and his deeply disliked predecessor Nicolas Sarkozy vying to ride the Republican nomination to a comeback, Marine Le Pen may have an opening. The only head of a major French political party to have backed Trump, she congratulated him in a post on Twitter referring to “the American people, free!” Le Pen later said she trusted the French, “who cherish their liberty,” would break with the system which was “shackling them.”
“Up to now everybody in France has said, just as all kind of informed opinion so-called in America has said, ‘Oh well, Trump cannot win, Marine le Pen cannot win,”’ Howard Davies, Chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland, told Bloomberg TV’s Tom Keene. “Well, I think there’ll be a lot of people asking themselves if that really is quite so certain, and so I think the French will be very nervous.”
Germany elections
Germany, with its constitutional checks and balances intended to prevent dictatorial bents, is also the European country most resistant to populism. Federal elections in the fall of 2017 will show if that postwar assumption still holds.
Frauke Petry, co-leader of the anti-immigration Alternative for Germany party, sees Trump’s victory as a lesson for Germany. “Just as Americans didn’t believe the pollsters of the mainstream media, Germans also must have the courage to make their mark at the ballot box themselves,” Petry said.
Chancellor Angela Merkel, who has yet to reveal whether she will run again, has already suffered a series of regional election defeats on the back of an open-door refugee policy denounced by AfD and described as “insane” by Trump. The Republican’s surprise victory might just tip her in favor of seeking a fourth term. www.bloomberg.com Today start this string of populist challenges. Let's see what happens. Counting starts soon.
I don't think voting no in the Italian referendum is populist though. The Economist for example is against Renzi and you can hardly call them populist. It might end up a victory for populism if Renzi loses, elections are called and m5s wins but that's hardly certain.
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Thanks for the link and your answers.
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Hey there, I can provide impressions for the referendum if you want.
The voting will close at 23 CEST. I think we will start to have some results around midnight/one o clock.
I'm posting my predictions just to quote me later and look cool if I got it right: The No will win ranging from 52% to 58%.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Seems like Van der Bellen is likely to win Austria at this point. Let's see how Italy goes.
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On December 05 2016 01:30 SoSexy wrote:
Hey there, I can provide impressions for the referendum if you want.
The voting will close at 23 CEST. I think we will start to have some results around midnight/one o clock.
I'm posting my predictions just to quote me later and look cool if I got it right: The No will win ranging from 52% to 58%.
Please do. I'm going to agree with you and say that no wins.
Hofer has already conceded defeat so that's it for him.
Austrian Press Agency also projected a win for Van der Bellen based on early results, and within minutes Hofer conceded defeat on his Facebook site.
www.bloomberg.com
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Honestly I'm not exactly sure why half the people were predicting a Hofer win within the past two months or so, with the rest saying it's 50-50. Maybe just hedging their bets and/or being prepared for the worst?
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A famous italian singer caused some uproar because he said that the pencil they gave you were erasable. He tried it on a piece of paper and it did erase the mark. The officer wrote that down.
However, later on the government said that this does not happen on the official voting paper due to the chemical properties of that paper. But those 20-40 minutes were wild xd
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
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EPT
