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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On November 28 2016 02:15 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 01:39 Toadesstern wrote:On November 28 2016 00:53 xM(Z wrote:
you invented that - Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker.
he is using the West invented right to self-determination the other way around. West used it in early XIX's to break apart colonies; Putin is using it in early XX's to make Russia whole again.
there were bills passed by the russian parliament that gave special status to russians outside Russia's border a while ago. leave it to xM(Z to pull out the good old "you say everyone should be free to do what they want, so who are you to say I can't force other people to do what I want? It's what I want!" ha, ha. if i leave it up to you look what happens: you have people believe that the only way to be with Putin is when Putin forces you!. AfD loves him no matter what.
I mean that's a 100% on your wording. If you say "Putin makes Russia whole again" it does imply exactly what I said. If you didn't mean it you'd probably say it the other way around.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
In one of the most shocking flip-flops in recent political history, German Chancellor Angela Merkel now says she will deport about 10% of recently arrived migrants -- 100,000 of them.
But more than that, her tone on granting asylum to migrants has radically changed.
Sunday Express:
The beleaguered Chancellor said authorities would significantly step up the rate of forced returns as she battles to arrest an alarming slump in her popularity which has fuelled a surge in support for the far-right.
Mrs Merkel, whose decision to roll out the red carpet to migrants from across Africa and the Middle East spectacularly backfired, has taken an increasingly tough tone on immigration in recent months.
And in her toughest rhetoric yet the German leader told MPs from her party this week: ”The most important thing in the coming months is repatriation, repatriation and once more, repatriation.”
...
Source
Well... it's a flip-flop in a way. But it's also coming to terms with the reality of a project that went wrong and I can't fault that.
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On November 28 2016 03:41 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 02:15 xM(Z wrote:On November 28 2016 01:39 Toadesstern wrote:On November 28 2016 00:53 xM(Z wrote:
you invented that - Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker.
he is using the West invented right to self-determination the other way around. West used it in early XIX's to break apart colonies; Putin is using it in early XX's to make Russia whole again.
there were bills passed by the russian parliament that gave special status to russians outside Russia's border a while ago. leave it to xM(Z to pull out the good old "you say everyone should be free to do what they want, so who are you to say I can't force other people to do what I want? It's what I want!" ha, ha. if i leave it up to you look what happens: you have people believe that the only way to be with Putin is when Putin forces you!. AfD loves him no matter what. I mean that's a 100% on your wording. If you say "Putin makes Russia whole again" it does imply exactly what I said. If you didn't mean it you'd probably say it the other way around. the obvious joke was obvious.
@above: where would she deport them thou?. i mean, syrians would have to stay ... or is she planning to send them to Greece or Turkey?
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On November 28 2016 04:08 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +In one of the most shocking flip-flops in recent political history, German Chancellor Angela Merkel now says she will deport about 10% of recently arrived migrants -- 100,000 of them.
But more than that, her tone on granting asylum to migrants has radically changed.
Sunday Express:
The beleaguered Chancellor said authorities would significantly step up the rate of forced returns as she battles to arrest an alarming slump in her popularity which has fuelled a surge in support for the far-right.
Mrs Merkel, whose decision to roll out the red carpet to migrants from across Africa and the Middle East spectacularly backfired, has taken an increasingly tough tone on immigration in recent months.
And in her toughest rhetoric yet the German leader told MPs from her party this week: ”The most important thing in the coming months is repatriation, repatriation and once more, repatriation.”
... SourceWell... it's a flip-flop in a way. But it's also coming to terms with the reality of a project that went wrong and I can't fault that.
I'm happy she has admitted this, it couldn't of been easy for her but then again its most likely due to her wanting to carry on running as Chancellor.
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Fillon leading 70:30 so far (first results, based on 20% of the vote counts).
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On November 28 2016 04:08 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +In one of the most shocking flip-flops in recent political history, German Chancellor Angela Merkel now says she will deport about 10% of recently arrived migrants -- 100,000 of them.
But more than that, her tone on granting asylum to migrants has radically changed.
Sunday Express:
The beleaguered Chancellor said authorities would significantly step up the rate of forced returns as she battles to arrest an alarming slump in her popularity which has fuelled a surge in support for the far-right.
Mrs Merkel, whose decision to roll out the red carpet to migrants from across Africa and the Middle East spectacularly backfired, has taken an increasingly tough tone on immigration in recent months.
And in her toughest rhetoric yet the German leader told MPs from her party this week: ”The most important thing in the coming months is repatriation, repatriation and once more, repatriation.”
... SourceWell... it's a flip-flop in a way. But it's also coming to terms with the reality of a project that went wrong and I can't fault that.
Maybe you should use other sources than some weird interpretation of what the Sunday Express picked up. That is like playing Chinese whispers.
She didn't say anything new at Neumünster. She actually defended her current course there.
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Yep, she didn't talk about "wanting" to deport 100k people but simply states as a fact that 100k people will probably be deported this year. That's a really facetious interpretation, her tone didn't indicate any shift in policy. People without lawful right to asylum where not supposed to stay to begin with,that's never changed.
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On November 28 2016 04:31 TheDwf wrote:
Fillon leading 70:30 so far (first results, based on 20% of the vote counts).
Because we all know what France needs as an alternative to Le Pen is someone trying to catch up with Botswana's GINI coefficient
What a ghastly runoff that would be
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 28 2016 04:53 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 04:08 LegalLord wrote:In one of the most shocking flip-flops in recent political history, German Chancellor Angela Merkel now says she will deport about 10% of recently arrived migrants -- 100,000 of them.
But more than that, her tone on granting asylum to migrants has radically changed.
Sunday Express:
The beleaguered Chancellor said authorities would significantly step up the rate of forced returns as she battles to arrest an alarming slump in her popularity which has fuelled a surge in support for the far-right.
Mrs Merkel, whose decision to roll out the red carpet to migrants from across Africa and the Middle East spectacularly backfired, has taken an increasingly tough tone on immigration in recent months.
And in her toughest rhetoric yet the German leader told MPs from her party this week: ”The most important thing in the coming months is repatriation, repatriation and once more, repatriation.”
... SourceWell... it's a flip-flop in a way. But it's also coming to terms with the reality of a project that went wrong and I can't fault that. Maybe you should use other sources than some weird interpretation of what the Sunday Express picked up. That is like playing Chinese whispers. She didn't say anything new at Neumünster. She actually defended her current course there.
I should perhaps mention that the only sources I found were that and Express. Neither seem too reliable here.
So you think that she has no plans of the sort?
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She just stated the number of deported people in 2016 will probably be around 100k. People without rightful claim cannot stay, that always has been the asylum policy to begin with, there's no flip flop
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On November 28 2016 04:15 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 03:41 Toadesstern wrote:On November 28 2016 02:15 xM(Z wrote:On November 28 2016 01:39 Toadesstern wrote:On November 28 2016 00:53 xM(Z wrote:
you invented that - Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker.
he is using the West invented right to self-determination the other way around. West used it in early XIX's to break apart colonies; Putin is using it in early XX's to make Russia whole again.
there were bills passed by the russian parliament that gave special status to russians outside Russia's border a while ago. leave it to xM(Z to pull out the good old "you say everyone should be free to do what they want, so who are you to say I can't force other people to do what I want? It's what I want!" ha, ha. if i leave it up to you look what happens: you have people believe that the only way to be with Putin is when Putin forces you!. AfD loves him no matter what. I mean that's a 100% on your wording. If you say "Putin makes Russia whole again" it does imply exactly what I said. If you didn't mean it you'd probably say it the other way around. the obvious joke was obvious. @above: where would she deport them thou?. i mean, syrians would have to stay ... or is she planning to send them to Greece or Turkey?
I assume they will try to deport fake Syrians from Northern Africa and Middle East back to their countries of origin. They could also try to deport real Syrians to transit countries like Hungary but that would be hilariously dumb.
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On November 28 2016 04:57 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 04:31 TheDwf wrote:
Fillon leading 70:30 so far (first results, based on 20% of the vote counts). Because we all know what France needs as an alternative to Le Pen is someone trying to catch up with Botswana's GINI coefficient What a ghastly runoff that would be
Fillon makes sense to me. I don't see what's wrong with his proposed policies.
This isn't communism, the public sector is not and should not be the principal actor of the economy. He's going to make it easier for companies to hire people, easier for companies to make money and he's going to tackle the ridiculous amount of debt which France has amassed.
Before the left-wingers in this thread call me a Nazi for saying these policies make sense, I really want to let them know that I know of Keynesian economics. I just don't think that's really done anything for France. Socialists in France have heavily augmented taxes during the past 4 years. It didn't help shit, get over it.
Companies aren't hiring. Unemployment is high. It's an actual recession. There aren't any jobs. All of our good companies are getting bought by foreigner investors, factories all over the nation are getting closed. This is reality, the reality of what 4 years of raising taxes, raising public spending, raising our level of debt has done.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mYH5VZw.png)
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gdp
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-spending-to-gdp
These policies don't work, because contrarily to what Hollande thinks, the economy is stagnant and unemployment is still high.
The issue isn't public spending in itself, it's actually a good tool to help stimulate the economy, if your politicians aren't French, corrupt retards (which they are in France). French public spending has been squandered hard and it shows when you look at the basic economic situation.
Fillon will at very least make the load lighter for the private sector (gasp gasp, Europeans hate the idea of individual liberties and responsibilities, I know), thus making it easier for THEM to make a difference. The public sector isn't going to make the difference, it's down to each individual to do so. Individuals aren't going to do that if taxes are high and they can't keep the money to EARNED (another European notion: money and work are horrible things).
There's also the entire mess in that it makes 0 fucking sense to invest any cash in France. Literally all gains are confiscated. Why bother? If you make €100 through investing in France, €95 goes to the state, where it's wasted by the French government. There's NO incentive for any economic activity in France. Companies can't hire anyone because it's an incredibly big risk to take. So everyone gets shitty temporary contracts instead of good contracts and everyone is stressing out thinking about if they're going to be making a living in a few months (or thinking about their next job).
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On November 28 2016 04:08 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +In one of the most shocking flip-flops in recent political history, German Chancellor Angela Merkel now says she will deport about 10% of recently arrived migrants -- 100,000 of them.
But more than that, her tone on granting asylum to migrants has radically changed.
Sunday Express:
The beleaguered Chancellor said authorities would significantly step up the rate of forced returns as she battles to arrest an alarming slump in her popularity which has fuelled a surge in support for the far-right.
Mrs Merkel, whose decision to roll out the red carpet to migrants from across Africa and the Middle East spectacularly backfired, has taken an increasingly tough tone on immigration in recent months.
And in her toughest rhetoric yet the German leader told MPs from her party this week: ”The most important thing in the coming months is repatriation, repatriation and once more, repatriation.”
... SourceWell... it's a flip-flop in a way. But it's also coming to terms with the reality of a project that went wrong and I can't fault that.
I do not see her flip-flopping at all. Her infamous "Wir schaffen das" statement was a preparation for a reality that was bound to happen. It backfired in the sense that she and noone else understood how well connected we are to the middle east and north africa and that people will get the message and interprete it as an invitation.
Deportations are sinply something that will happen, when many try to take advantage of such a situation.
It's called principles and real politics and it is not Merkel's fault that in hungary a guy sworn to human rights didnt have the backbone or - probably worse - will to fullfill his duty for human rights or try to advocate for a new, more solidary European solution, but instead escalated the refugee situation in his own country, drove thousands of refugees towards the Austrian boarder and then told Austria and Germany to deal with it.
I do not admire Merkel at all, her economics are some of the biggest catastrophes for Europe and are leading to extremist movements on the left and the right. But she has shown the decensy that in a real world situation in which you will have to deal with refugees because they are coming no matter what, you have to prepare the own people beforehand and that if you have to deal with foreign assholes like Orban in a peaceful manner that make you decide between basic human dignity for hundret thousands and staying true to a European regulation you always choose dignity. It's the least one can do to not become a human abomination like Orban.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Can anyone summarize the reasons behind why Hollande is unpopular right now?
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On November 28 2016 05:41 LegalLord wrote:
Can anyone summarize the reasons behind why Hollande is unpopular right now?
Unemployment, bad economy, French companies getting bought by foreigners, factories closing down everywhere, a supposedly socialist president does the bidding of our glorious German leader (Herr Merkel) instead of actually carrying out socialist policies. Terrorism.
Generally if you raise taxes and increase spending you get something good out of it, right? Well not in France. Nothing good happened.
Literally no progress has been made for the past 4 years. It's not like things were fine and dandy before Hollande, but things are unchanged since he was elected. Which is fucking stupid. Fuck him.
If you're right wing, you hate him, if you're left wing, you hate him. Everyone universally hates him.
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On November 28 2016 05:41 LegalLord wrote:
Can anyone summarize the reasons behind why Hollande is unpopular right now?
Because he is the president.
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Francois Fillon won the presidential nomination of France’s Republicans, as voters on the right opted for a candidate promising tougher economic reforms and unabashedly embracing traditional values to lead the party back to power in 2017.
With about half the vote counted and Fillon holding almost 70 percent of the vote, his rival Alain Juppe conceded. “I end this campaign as a free man who has not compromised his ideals or his hopes,” he told supporters in Paris. “As promised, I’m bringing my support tonight to Francois Fillon. I wish him the best for his presidential campaign.”
The result marks the end of months of campaigning in the Republicans’ first-ever primary contest and completes the opening phase of a presidential race that will end next May. Fillon was running a distant third for most of the contest until his upset first-place finish against six other candidates one week ago, and will now become the main candidate facing the anti-immigration, anti-euro Marine Le Pen in next spring’s election.
Whoever wins office next May will take over a country where growth and employment lag European averages and where terrorists have killed more than 200 people in less than two years, stoking religious tension and triggering introspection about France’s national identity. Fillon addressed those concerns directly in his victory speech.
“The message of this victory is that France will not stand for its decline,” Fillon said. “My ambition is to lift up the nation to its highest self.”
With the Republican candidate in place, attention will now turn back to the ruling Socialist Party and the future of Francois Hollande, the least popular French president in half a century. Prime Minister Manuel Valls said in an interview published Sunday that he may seek the Socialist candidacy, even though his boss is still considering his own bid for a second term.
www.bloomberg.com
It's official now. 70% of the vote is quite a mandate.
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On November 28 2016 05:28 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 04:57 Dan HH wrote:On November 28 2016 04:31 TheDwf wrote:
Fillon leading 70:30 so far (first results, based on 20% of the vote counts). Because we all know what France needs as an alternative to Le Pen is someone trying to catch up with Botswana's GINI coefficient What a ghastly runoff that would be + Show Spoiler +Fillon makes sense to me. I don't see what's wrong with his proposed policies. This isn't communism, the public sector is not and should not be the principal actor of the economy. He's going to make it easier for companies to hire people, easier for companies to make money and he's going to tackle the ridiculous amount of debt which France has amassed. Before the left-wingers in this thread call me a Nazi for saying these policies make sense, I really want to let them know that I know of Keynesian economics. I just don't think that's really done anything for France. Socialists in France have heavily augmented taxes during the past 4 years. It didn't help shit, get over it. Companies aren't hiring. Unemployment is high. It's an actual recession. There aren't any jobs. All of our good companies are getting bought by foreigner investors, factories all over the nation are getting closed. This is reality, the reality of what 4 years of raising taxes, raising public spending, raising our level of debt has done. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gdphttp://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-spending-to-gdpThese policies don't work, because contrarily to what Hollande thinks, the economy is stagnant and unemployment is still high. The issue isn't public spending in itself, it's actually a good tool to help stimulate the economy, if your politicians aren't French, corrupt retards (which they are in France). French public spending has been squandered hard and it shows when you look at the basic economic situation. Fillon will at very least make the load lighter for the private sector (gasp gasp, Europeans hate the idea of individual liberties and responsibilities, I know), thus making it easier for THEM to make a difference. The public sector isn't going to make the difference, it's down to each individual to do so. Individuals aren't going to do that if taxes are high and they can't keep the money to EARNED (another European notion: money and work are horrible things). There's also the entire mess in that it makes 0 fucking sense to invest any cash in France. Literally all gains are confiscated. Why bother? If you make €100 through investing in France, €95 goes to the state, where it's wasted by the French government. There's NO incentive for any economic activity in France. Companies can't hire anyone because it's an incredibly big risk to take. So everyone gets shitty temporary contracts instead of good contracts and everyone is stressing out thinking about if they're going to be making a living in a few months (or thinking about their next job).
completely agree, let's deregulate the labour market, put an end to our current healthcare and france is gonna be alright within the span of 5 years
i just realized that lepen - fillon is gonna be way closer than what i thought just for the two things i mentioned above
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Lmao, posting a graph showing that the debt increased faster when Fillon was our Prime Minister than when Hollande was in charge is a damn good argument. Let's post random graphs and say whatever.
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On November 28 2016 06:21 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 05:28 Incognoto wrote:On November 28 2016 04:57 Dan HH wrote:On November 28 2016 04:31 TheDwf wrote:
Fillon leading 70:30 so far (first results, based on 20% of the vote counts). Because we all know what France needs as an alternative to Le Pen is someone trying to catch up with Botswana's GINI coefficient What a ghastly runoff that would be + Show Spoiler +Fillon makes sense to me. I don't see what's wrong with his proposed policies. This isn't communism, the public sector is not and should not be the principal actor of the economy. He's going to make it easier for companies to hire people, easier for companies to make money and he's going to tackle the ridiculous amount of debt which France has amassed. Before the left-wingers in this thread call me a Nazi for saying these policies make sense, I really want to let them know that I know of Keynesian economics. I just don't think that's really done anything for France. Socialists in France have heavily augmented taxes during the past 4 years. It didn't help shit, get over it. Companies aren't hiring. Unemployment is high. It's an actual recession. There aren't any jobs. All of our good companies are getting bought by foreigner investors, factories all over the nation are getting closed. This is reality, the reality of what 4 years of raising taxes, raising public spending, raising our level of debt has done. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gdphttp://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-spending-to-gdpThese policies don't work, because contrarily to what Hollande thinks, the economy is stagnant and unemployment is still high. The issue isn't public spending in itself, it's actually a good tool to help stimulate the economy, if your politicians aren't French, corrupt retards (which they are in France). French public spending has been squandered hard and it shows when you look at the basic economic situation. Fillon will at very least make the load lighter for the private sector (gasp gasp, Europeans hate the idea of individual liberties and responsibilities, I know), thus making it easier for THEM to make a difference. The public sector isn't going to make the difference, it's down to each individual to do so. Individuals aren't going to do that if taxes are high and they can't keep the money to EARNED (another European notion: money and work are horrible things). There's also the entire mess in that it makes 0 fucking sense to invest any cash in France. Literally all gains are confiscated. Why bother? If you make €100 through investing in France, €95 goes to the state, where it's wasted by the French government. There's NO incentive for any economic activity in France. Companies can't hire anyone because it's an incredibly big risk to take. So everyone gets shitty temporary contracts instead of good contracts and everyone is stressing out thinking about if they're going to be making a living in a few months (or thinking about their next job). completely agree, let's deregulate the labour market, put an end to our current healthcare and france is gonna be alright within the span of 5 years i just realized that lepen - fillon is gonna be way closer than what i thought just for the two things i mentioned above
Because over-regulated labor markets and expensive, in-affordable health care is certainly helping France's economy today, isn't it? It's also why Alstom was sold (the train manufacturer mind you, not the crappy energy division) and factories are closing all over France.
Put it this way: things are fine as they are right now? The answer is "no". Do you think that keeping current policies (fiscal, economical, etc.) are going to make things better in the future? No.
Instead of writing two sarcastic lines on how I'm pretending to be the next Jesus, why don't you sit down and write your thoughts on what would legitimately make the economy take off again? I'm all for social equity and all that nonsense, but only if it's affordable and doesn't place undue strain on people who work in the private sector - which is, like it or not, not the case today. :/
Lmao, posting a graph showing that the debt increased faster when Fillon was our Prime Minister than when Hollande was in charge is a damn good argument. Let's post random graphs and say whatever.
Another French poster who posts a sarcastic two liner without bringing anything of merit to actually discuss.
Pray tell, can you please explain the lack of correlation between more public spending / debt and France's shitty economy? Can you put together a more substantial post than "lmao nice graph". France's fiscal and economic policies were bad under Sarko/Fillon as far as I'm concerned, it's just that it didn't show as much when there wasn't a real recession.
Now there is a recession and people are waiting for it to go away like it's some common cold, when they don't realize that the current economic and fiscal policies of France are making it very difficult for the economy to get going once again. Companies aren't hiring, they aren't looking for new projects or opportunities, most of them are trying to survive more than anything. The good French companies are being sold to the highest foreign bidder (Alstom was so juicy that the Americans and the Germans had a nice fight over it, so proud to be French!).
At least try to add something of substance?
People are saying that public spending is key and that austerity is the next holocaust. I point towards real data: increased public spending, increased debt, economy is as crappy as it was in 2009/2010. I get laughed at. Sense?!
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EPT
