EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 563
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Sent.
Poland9275 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
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PoulsenB
Poland7729 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18208 Posts
On October 03 2016 06:02 WhiteDog wrote: Weirdly enough, the EU is based on the very principle that it is able to ignore governments. No, it's not. We know you dislike the EU structure, but that's not a reason to spread falsehoods. Especially in this instance: the referendum question is loaded, and a ridiculous example of a referendum. I agree that the EU is overly bureaucratic, but most of that is due to the way every country in the EU is both represented in the parliament (direct elections) and council (each country's government is represented by one member directly). And moreover, a lot of the legislation needs to be ratified by the member states. Individual countries having (so much) power is one of the reasons the EU is such a lumbering monstrosity. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18208 Posts
On October 03 2016 07:03 Sent. wrote: Well it's not exactly invalid, it's just not binding. It's invalid, because not enough people voted. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On October 03 2016 16:27 Acrofales wrote: No, it's not. We know you dislike the EU structure, but that's not a reason to spread falsehoods. Especially in this instance: the referendum question is loaded, and a ridiculous example of a referendum. I agree that the EU is overly bureaucratic, but most of that is due to the way every country in the EU is both represented in the parliament (direct elections) and council (each country's government is represented by one member directly). And moreover, a lot of the legislation needs to be ratified by the member states. Individual countries having (so much) power is one of the reasons the EU is such a lumbering monstrosity. The main reason for EU being such a lumbering monstrosity and for the general antipathy towards EU is because of the mission creep that has occurred - the "ever closer union" is the crux of the issue. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On October 03 2016 07:03 Sent. wrote: Well it's not exactly invalid, it's just not binding. Unless I missed something, yes, it's invalid, because it has a <50% turnout. It would have been not binding even if it had been valid (but we don't care about this : the Brexit referendum wasn't binding either, yet it made noise), but here it's straight up invalid. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 03 2016 15:49 PoulsenB wrote: Meanwhile in Poland: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/02/women-to-go-on-strike-in-poland-abortion-law And just because I love the image: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/172554CzarnyProtest.jpg) (Thanks @ Sent for his answer p. 560 by the way.) | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4382 Posts
On October 03 2016 16:57 Ghostcom wrote: The main reason for EU being such a lumbering monstrosity and for the general antipathy towards EU is because of the mission creep that has occurred - the "ever closer union" is the crux of the issue. Orban himself called for an EU army just a few weeks ago. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-hungary-defence-idUSKCN11116J EU army is the definition of ever closer union. On one hand he's saying to the EU stay out of domestic affairs on the other he is asking for EU army.Very strange. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22083 Posts
On October 03 2016 21:56 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Orban himself called for an EU army just a few weeks ago. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-hungary-defence-idUSKCN11116J EU army is the definition of ever closer union. On one hand he's saying to the EU stay out of domestic affairs on the other he is asking for EU army.Very strange. Because the army feeds into the fear that the foreigners are out to get us. The referendum was barely about the EU getting into domestic affairs. It was mainly about keeping the immigrants out. Hungary needs the EU a lot more then the EU needs Hungary. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6263 Posts
On October 03 2016 21:56 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Orban himself called for an EU army just a few weeks ago. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-hungary-defence-idUSKCN11116J EU army is the definition of ever closer union. On one hand he's saying to the EU stay out of domestic affairs on the other he is asking for EU army.Very strange. It's possible that he wants a close union on foreign policy and one that doesn't intervene in internal matters. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On October 03 2016 22:05 Gorsameth wrote: Because the army feeds into the fear that the foreigners are out to get us. The referendum was barely about the EU getting into domestic affairs. It was mainly about keeping the immigrants out. Hungary needs the EU a lot more then the EU needs Hungary. They said that about britain too. At some point you'll realize that they need all the countries they have. Because once enough countries GTFO the EU isn't going to be such an impressive thing anymore. The whole debt circus where the EU is a recognized entity despite not having a proper fiscal policy is going to crumble and either france or germany or both will be sitting there with the outstanding debts this union has occured, or it's money that will vanish into thin air. The EU isn't even a proper union. The only power the united leaders of europe have is to reject certain proposals when brought before the european congress. They can't elect the leader of the european council. They can't propose legislation. the nations there are basically paying money and giving away their national sovereignty to an inept gravy train built on top of bureaucrats and idiots who can't solve shit. The euro didn't help either. That's just a horrible pyramid scheme where a euro earned in Greece is worth less than a euro in germany until it crosses the boarder (mostly due to how much the average greek worker is paid when compared to german workers. It didn't help that they basically folded their cards once the debt crisis was a fact and simply fucked greece over alongside the IMF to recoup the investments made by Deutsche bank and to pay off french investors. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9275 Posts
On October 03 2016 18:38 OtherWorld wrote: Unless I missed something, yes, it's invalid, because it has a <50% turnout. It would have been not binding even if it had been valid (but we don't care about this : the Brexit referendum wasn't binding either, yet it made noise), but here it's straight up invalid. I see no reason to invalidate a referendum with a smaller turnout. If the result is not binding it can be treated as opinion. If the referendum is invalid then you should treat it as it didn't happen which is a big difference. Austrian election results were invalidated because they fucked something up, nobody fucked up here. I don't know the Hungarian constitution but mine says that if a referendum has a >50% turnout then the result is binding. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On October 04 2016 00:05 Sent. wrote: I see no reason to invalidate a referendum with a smaller turnout. If the result is not binding it can be treated as opinion. If the referendum is invalid then you should treat it as it didn't happen which is a big difference. Austrian election results were invalidated because they fucked something up, nobody fucked up here. I don't know the Hungarian constitution but mine says that if a referendum has a >50% turnout then the result is binding. Well you may see no reason but apparently the Hungarians did. It's not me who decided that the referendum was invalid, it's the Hungarians themselves, as reaching 50% turnout to be valid was apparently necessary. Hence my comment about amateurism. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9275 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On October 04 2016 01:12 Sent. wrote: Okay I'm too lazy to learn Hungarian to check their laws so I'll admit defeat, gg Language barriers are no fun  . | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On October 04 2016 01:12 Sent. wrote: Okay I'm too lazy to learn Hungarian to check their laws so I'll admit defeat, gg Cmon, literally every English- and French-speaking media out there is saying that it had to be >50% to be valid. Even fucking Russia Today. I don't know what's the legal basis for that, if it's in the Constitution or if it's a case-by-case thing, but I think they do. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18208 Posts
On October 04 2016 01:46 OtherWorld wrote: Cmon, literally every English- and French-speaking media out there is saying that it had to be >50% to be valid. Even fucking Russia Today. I don't know what's the legal basis for that, if it's in the Constitution or if it's a case-by-case thing, but I think they do. Referenda everywhere have a minimum threshold (often 35% turnout, but 50% is not strange either). It's to guarantee that the referendum can be said with some confidence to reflect the will of the people. | ||
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D_lux
Hungary60 Posts
 It is technically invalid, according to law. So its not binding by default. It doesnt means that the hungarian government can't act upon it. Orban's party still holds the vast majority in the parliament and they can rewrite the constitution over and over again as they please even without referendum. This time they will say even though the referendum is invalid, they still had 3million people voting no. They still had +90% no votes, so they will do something about it. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6263 Posts
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