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zatic
Zurich15352 Posts
On August 26 2016 18:21 WhiteDog wrote: Today the German don't want to give massive amount of money to the Greeks because they're not their peers, they're different and identified as such. On the other hand, the West Germans don't want to give money to the East Germans anymore either, even though they should be their peers. | ||
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stilt
France2751 Posts
On August 26 2016 18:17 Morfildur wrote: Not specifically replying to you, but using you as a hook for my opinion: I find terms like "European culture" a bit overrated. I'm German, I live in the far north of Germany. I most certainly don't have the same culture as the Bavarians in the far south of Germany, nor the same culture as the people in the east or west of Germany. We're still one country, even though the only thing we really share is a language - arguably not even that, because I have a lot of trouble understanding what people from Saxony (east Germany) or Bavaria are saying, they pretty much have their own language that sort of resembles actual German, but doesn't really. A country doesn't need to have a single culture to be united, I'd actually say that no non-tiny country actually *has* a single culture. The main problem with a united Europe is not culture. Every region will still have it's own culture and cultures always change over time anyways. The main problem is something Germany has experience with: Uniting countries of different economical strength. West- and east Germany are still significantly apart in terms of economy. The unification was over 25 years ago (has it really been that long? I'm old...) and it's nowhere near done. Before you can unite Europe, you have to get all economies up to speed, and that can take centuries, judging by how slow the progress in eastern Germany is. Personally, I'm in favor of a united Europe, but I don't think it's viable in my lifetime without an economic revolution in the weaker parts of the EU. The homogeneity of our political systems is impossible for a very long time because of cultural différences. Just two exemples: Germany has been politically unified in 1871 by Bismarck right? So you're perception of the federal state is not the same as in France Where the centralisation of the state is culturally strong. Another exemple is the rapport with the religion is really different, why there is such a secular state in France ? Many think this is caused by the cultural background of the republican of the third republic which was the positivism and so a strong opposition to the church. And this opposition lasted around 40 years and was extremely violent in term of debate. (and ended during the WWI) Why was it like this ? We could argue that it is a revolutionnary legacy which has tried to create a strict control over the chuch. And why did they try this ? Because Robespierre, Danton, Mirabeau ext were heavely influenced by some philosophers of their centuries or/and that this tradition of a centralized state which both controlled and feared the religion is deeply anchored in french culture and had been handled differently as other nations : After a very violent cultural struggle during the 16th century, the state has beaten the protestants which were used by some lords in order to fight the centralism of the royalism, no wonder why France has invented the absolutism. (And yes, they had edit of tolerance and a protestant king who has abjured the reform but in the long term, the protestantism as a war against centralism have lost their political power and the revocation of the edit less than one century later revealed it) So the root of « laicité » are multiples and profundly bury in the France’s soil. And this is one exemple of a political culture of one country. Europe is too vast and culturally different for any federal state. We can not manipuled the sovereignity of millions of people like this and created a homogeneisation of politic systems. So I will conclude that yes, the problem is political culture, some nation state can accept federalism, some others can not. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6236 Posts
On August 26 2016 18:17 stilt wrote: But it became and I didn't talk about the french revolutionary armies but the Louis XIV one's which has provoked a lot of fear and some kind of national union. At least, that what I understood about the Simon Schama's work I read. Weren't wars against imperialism though. By the time of the invasion from Louis XIV (and England and some other countries) The republic was an imperial power itself. Very important war though (the war of the Austrian succession as well) but the development towards a nation state was more because of the patriotten (part of who wanted a unified state) and reforms under the Batavian republic (During the French revolutionary wars). Still it shows that it's possible to create a unified, centralized state from a group of countries which placed huge value on their own independence (so much so that they started a revolt over it). It's a process of centuries though and I think one of the issues with discussions like this is that we only see it trough the lens of our own lives (a few decades at most). | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
On August 26 2016 19:13 stilt wrote: The homogeneity of our political systems is impossible for a very long time because of cultural différences. Just two exemples: Germany has been politically unified in 1871 by Bismarck right? So you're perception of the federal state is not the same as in France Where the centralisation of the state is culturally strong. Another exemple is the rapport with the religion is really different, why there is such a secular state in France ? Many think this is caused by the cultural background of the republican of the third republic which was the positivism and so a strong opposition to the church. And this opposition lasted around 40 years and was extremely violent in term of debate. (and ended during the WWI) Why was it like this ? We could argue that it is a revolutionnary legacy which has tried to create a strict control over the chuch. And why did they try this ? Because Robespierre, Danton, Mirabeau ext were heavely influenced by some philosophers of their centuries or/and that this tradition of a centralized state which both controlled and feared the religion is deeply anchored in french culture and had been handled differently as other nations : After a very violent cultural struggle during the 16th century, the state has beaten the protestants which were used by some lords in order to fight the centralism of the royalism, no wonder why France has invented the absolutism. (And yes, they had edit of tolerance and a protestant king who has abjured the reform but in the long term, the protestantism as a war against centralism have lost their political power and the revocation of the edit less than one century later revealed it) So the root of « laicité » are multiples and profundly bury in the France’s soil. And this is one exemple of a political culture of one country. Europe is too vast and culturally different for any federal state. We can not manipuled the sovereignity of millions of people like this and created a homogeneisation of politic systems. So I will conclude that yes, the problem is political culture, some nation state can accept federalism, some others can not. Well Germany f.e. shares a lot of that. We had our civil war against the protestants (one of the worst ever), our struggles with centralism and now pretty massive mistrust of the church and anything related. Yeah our alterations of absolutism and centralization came way later (under Prussia and the Nazis), but they came. Now I get that Spain f.e. has stronger bindings to the church. I'm just saying that European countries had a lot of influence on each other, which can be seen when absolutism and later the French revolution create similar phenomenons in other European countries, or when somebody above talks about Plato being one of the top 3 most influential persons in European history (which I don't agree to btw.). Hell before nationalism and industrialization went crazy in the 18th and 19th centuries Europe was really close in terms of culture. Naples f.e. was 400 years under Spanish reign before it rebelled after being bled dry by the king. | ||
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stilt
France2751 Posts
On August 26 2016 20:29 Blackfeather wrote: Well Germany f.e. shares a lot of that. We had our civil war against the protestants (one of the worst ever), our struggles with centralism and now pretty massive mistrust of the church and anything related. Yeah our alterations of absolutism and centralization came way later (under Prussia and the Nazis), but they came. Now I get that Spain f.e. has stronger bindings to the church. I'm just saying that European countries had a lot of influence on each other, which can be seen when absolutism and later the French revolution create similar phenomenons in other European countries, or when somebody above talks about Plato being one of the top 3 most influential persons in European history (which I don't agree to btw.). Hell before nationalism and industrialization went crazy in the 18th and 19th centuries Europe was really close in terms of culture. Naples f.e. was 400 years under Spanish reign before it rebelled after being bled dry by the king. Yeah but you didn't handle in the same. In the 16th centuries, Charles Quint was leading current Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, the Saint Empire and were disputing Italy with France. He could never hope a centralized power in the same way as the french's Kings (who has a unique territory) so he wanted to lead with his elites, the french Kings with their territory integrity wanted to lead everyone alone, this is impossible ofc, just an idea but it has conditionned the centralism of our nation and so the poltical culture in it. This is for this reason that our constitution has no mention of god because the Republic with this absolutism legacy was/is exclusive to another cultural force, for an Emile Combes who was the great republican ennemy of the Church, you could be a patriot and Christian, Jew or whatever but by a laaarge margin you were a french before a Christian, there were no equality. The desire of assimilation is deeper. In some way, the first Republic (the most radical one's) has become some transcendant entity and merged with the nation (god was replaced by France who incarned people sovereignity to sum up), it is some kind of a leftist patriotism, a term who I think, is accurate to describe some guys like Robespierre or Saint Just but it is in another way, the real birth of nationalism which has exported and evolved in different nations. To give another exemple on most of the people perception (yeah I'm sorry, I keep making french exemples) after an attentat, one of my friend who is part of a "liberal intellectual elite" of the country was still shocked about this remark made by a french muslim woman: "we're compatissant with you", I think most of anglo saxon people would love such remark and being like "this is cute, muslims communities are good ppl" but even most of the french liberals are like "our republic has failed to integrate people", France is seen as one communauty (it is both the absolutism and revolutionnary legacy and it has obviously been the source of a lot of conflicts way before the debate on the laicité) hence the french term "communautarisme" which is perceived in a very negative way and is not understood in anglo saxon nations who are into multiculturalism. So, yes, we shared strong bonds but this is still currently not enough because the french specificity I describe is one among a thousand others political culture. This will take a very long time before EU can become a nation in itself if it can one day, I personnaly have a lot of difficulty to conceptualize that ppl who do not speak the same language as myself could be part of the same nation. Even if I lived next to Belgium during a large period, this idea seems so freaking weird. In his current state, I just see it as a technocratic a neoliberal stuff which can only be like this so this pseudo federalism which stole a bit more of ppl sovereignity must end. Oh and, why did you disagree on Plato case? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5281 Posts
France's top administrative court has overturned a town burkini ban amid shock and anger worldwide after some Muslim women were ordered to remove body-concealing garments on French Riviera beaches. ...The ruling by the Council of State Friday specifically concerns a ban in the Riviera town of Villeneuve-Loubet, but the binding decision is expected to set a legal precedent for all the 30 or so French resort municipalities that have issued similar decrees. Lawyer Patrice Spinosi, representing the Human Rights League, told reporters that the decision should set a precedent, and that other mayors should conform to it. He also said women who have already received fines can protest them based on Friday's decision. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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stilt
France2751 Posts
On August 26 2016 22:29 corumjhaelen wrote: Will the most useless and boring debate of the year finally stop ? Will my fb feed be cleansed from this stupidity ? My hopes arent too high. Well, the rapport that the state has with religion is never something useless. However, the amount of stupidy I read every days made me wish the same thing. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 26 2016 22:29 corumjhaelen wrote: Will the most useless and boring debate of the year finally stop ? Will my fb feed be cleansed from this stupidity ? My hopes arent too high. Yeah, don't hold your breath, some new similar controversy will arise in a matter of weeks. The presidential campaign will be full of dumb debates and grotesque statements about halal meat, headscarf at the université, in the public space, etc., etc. The infernal machine is unleashed. | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On August 26 2016 22:31 stilt wrote: Well, the rapport that the state has with religion is never something useless. However, the amount of stupidy I read every days made me wish the same thing. That had nothing to do with the relation between the state and the religion. This wasn't about laïcité either (probably the most misused word in recent times in french debates). Finally this absurdity has been ruled into the ground. On August 26 2016 22:35 TheDwf wrote: Yeah, don't hold your breath, some new similar controversy will arise in a matter of weeks. The presidential campaign will be full of dumb debates and grotesque statements about halal meat, headscarf at the université, in the public space, etc., etc. The infernal machine is unleashed. Your post can be summarized by "Nicolas Sarkozy is back". Although he wasn't needed in that particular domain to have dumb debates. | ||
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stilt
France2751 Posts
On August 26 2016 22:45 Ragnarork wrote: That had nothing to do with the relation between the state and the religion. This wasn't about laïcité either (probably the most misused word in recent times in french debates). Finally this absurdity has been ruled into the ground. Good, I guess this is not really necessary to argue so... Let's say you don't know, you're wrong and repeat it for me ok? | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On August 26 2016 22:45 Ragnarork wrote: That had nothing to do with the relation between the state and the religion. This wasn't about laïcité either (probably the most misused word in recent times in french debates). Finally this absurdity has been ruled into the ground. Your post can be summarized by "Nicolas Sarkozy is back". Although he wasn't needed in that particular domain to have dumb debates. Meh, Sarkozy is merely making the situation worse. The Valls/Hollande combo alone is loving dumb debates, and someone like Juppé would be forced into them anyways. On August 26 2016 22:50 stilt wrote: Good, I guess this is not really necessary to argue so... Let's say you don't know but you're wrong and repeat it for me ok? Such arrogance... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 26 2016 22:45 Ragnarork wrote: Your post can be summarized by "Nicolas Sarkozy is back". Although he wasn't needed in that particular domain to have dumb debates. If only he was alone on that niche... But the market is actually overly saturated. Regarding 2017, our dear first minister said that “of course, there is economy and unemployment, but the most important is the cultural and identity battle”. Sarkozy's rivals for the primary will all multiply statements about islam-related stuff, especially the less known candidates since this Trump-like approach is the only way to catch the attention of our trash sensationalist medias. And the Front National will of course remain the Front National. The result is that from the right wing of the PS to the FN (i.e. the majority of the electoral body...), there is a wide consensus about playing Muslim Women Go. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
On August 26 2016 22:21 TheDwf wrote: The Conseil d'État nullified the burkini ban in one city, stating that it violated several fundamental liberties. This decision should set a precedent, so burkini bans in other cities should be cancelled too if challenged. And the oppossite is true right ?, since it is only in one city, they can appeal. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 26 2016 23:11 Godwrath wrote: And the oppossite is true right ?, since it is only in one city, they can appeal. Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean. If you're wondering if mayors can appeal that decision, no. On a side note, the right wing is already campaigning on the this-is-a-defeat-of-the-Republic-against-islamism theme and claims it will soon propose a bill to ban the burkini on the whole territory.  | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On August 26 2016 23:30 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean. If you're wondering if mayors can appeal that decision, no. On a side note, the right wing is already campaigning on the this-is-a-defeat-of-the-Republic-against-islamism theme and claims it will soon propose a bill to ban the burkini on the whole territory. What did you expect? | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
On August 26 2016 23:30 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean. If you're wondering if mayors can appeal that decision, no. On a side note, the right wing is already campaigning on the this-is-a-defeat-of-the-Republic-against-islamism theme and claims it will soon propose a bill to ban the burkini on the whole territory. Yeah, i asked if the mayors could appeal, because on spanish news they said they could. | ||
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On August 26 2016 23:30 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean. If you're wondering if mayors can appeal that decision, no. On a side note, the right wing is already campaigning on the this-is-a-defeat-of-the-Republic-against-islamism theme and claims it will soon propose a bill to ban the burkini on the whole territory. Reminder that the biggest right wing party is called "The Republicans" and has many members that have criticized a lot the fact that we have a constitution that prevents us from doing anything we would like when it comes to laws. Pretty ironic. So uh... yeah, what did you expect?  | ||
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