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On August 18 2016 06:59 Nyxisto wrote:
That's a pretty dishonest generalization of how religious institutions function. Not every church and mosque teaches totalitarian stuff or submits you to some occult ideology. Especially for immigrants and the poor they're a fairly important social institution that often do more for them than anybody else. You're taking a purely privileged point of view. Do you think some immigrant kid that has been mistreated by the police on a weekly basis is going to look to the state or his mosque for conflict resolution? Those people have the exact opposite experience that you are describing.
Well, in that case the solution is to change the way the police works, not subcontract the problem to religious institutions. That's exactly the issue with what happened in some cities: politicians were unable or unwilling to solve certain problems, and “bought” social peace through religion instead—sometimes turning a blind eye on fishy stuff.
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On August 18 2016 06:59 Nyxisto wrote:
That's a pretty dishonest generalization of how religious institutions function. Not every church and mosque teaches totalitarian stuff or submits you to some occult ideology. Especially for immigrants and the poor they're a fairly important social institution that often do more for them than anybody else. You're taking a purely privileged point of view. Do you think some immigrant kid that has been mistreated by the police on a weekly basis is going to look to the state or his mosque for conflict resolution? Those people have the exact opposite experience that you are describing.
Yes they all did at some point. The only reason church and mosque don't teaches totalitarian stuff is because their power is restricted by the state / the civil society.
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Wait, so you think there's no room for anti-authoritarian beliefs within religious organisations? Like MLK was only restrained by civil society and he'd eventually have gone full Stalin? You think there's no revolutionary potential within religious belief systems? People in central America would like to have a word with you
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On August 18 2016 07:26 Nyxisto wrote:
Wait, so you think there's no room for anti-authoritarian beliefs within religious organisations? Like MLK was only restrained by civil society and he'd eventually have gone full Stalin? You think there's no revolutionary potential within religious belief systems? People in central America would like to have a word with you
I think any kind of system of power without actual counter power has a potential to turn totalitarian in some ways, and it is even more true for revealed and unified truth believers, which is why we instituted counter powers and organized our collectivity.
MLK was a dominated, not a dominant.
Any kind of dominated has a "potential for revolution" ; doesn't mean much. Central america was much more complicated than "UGH JESUS !". There's potential for revolution in all religions ; now is it a revolution for the better ? G. Orwell thought only the christian doctrine was an actual progress towards more humanity in the history of mankind - an outrageous comment, but the idea is there, it doesn't matter that you change the society, what matter is that you change it toward more humanity and decency.
Only orthodox marxist still believe the world is necessarily going towards communism, and that whatever you do, it can only accelerate the pace at which you go toward this beautiful society. I thought that, at this point in history, we freed ourselves from such simpleminded vision.
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Islam means Submission, Nyx.
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On August 18 2016 08:32 IgnE wrote:
Islam means Submission, Nyx.
Well a part of having authentic freedom is the freedom to submit, right? Nothing inherently wrong with forfeiting freedoms voluntarily. That's especially true when we're talking about sexual freedom. In this discussion about women and religion the idea seems to get lost that not everybody wants live as promiscuous as possible
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On August 18 2016 09:35 Nyxisto wrote:Well a part of having authentic freedom is the freedom to submit, right? Nothing inherently wrong with forfeiting freedoms voluntarily. That's especially true when we're talking about sexual freedom. In this discussion about women and religion the idea seems to get lost that not everybody wants live as promiscuous as possible
And nobody is denying them the right to do so, what people don't want is that they belittle/mistreat others for not thinking as they do, that they let those who do not wish to stay in the cult get away without any kind of retribution / restrain and that they don't try to impose their belief on the society.
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Nyxisto you are one scary individual.
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On August 18 2016 20:03 SoSexy wrote:
Nyxisto you are one scary individual.
What's scary in saying that authentic freedom includes freedom to submit? That's 100% true.
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On August 18 2016 08:32 IgnE wrote:
Islam means Submission, Nyx.
More accurately, you would need to use a circumlocution such as “voluntary submission in peace to God's will”.
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On August 18 2016 20:07 OtherWorld wrote:What's scary in saying that authentic freedom includes freedom to submit? That's 100% true.
Still kinda off from an historical perspective ; the idea of freedom as understood by the west today basically built itself against religion for a big part.
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Freedom to submit sure, now tell me what choice do people have that are born into religious family's, specifically ones who are born into muslim country's such as Saudi Arabia? They will be brought up as a muslim the second they are born, and when they get older and can start thinking for themselves and decide Islam is not for them and want to leave the religion? Whats the penalty for that? Oh yea death... so much freedom.
This is somewhat relevant, Richard Dawkins book "The god delusion" has sold 4 million copies in Saudi Arabia, i am sure there are a lot of Apostates hiding there among other highly religious country's. This is why i think we should get things like the internet and other education tools into third world poor country's as fast as possible (if even possible) and get people thinking for themselves instead of being told what to think.
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On August 18 2016 20:26 Reaps wrote:
Freedom to submit sure, now tell me what choice do people have that are born into religious family's, specifically ones who are born into muslim country's such as Saudi Arabia? They will be brought up as a muslim the second they are born, and when they get older and can start thinking for themselves and decide Islam is not for them and want to leave the religion? Whats the penalty for that? Oh yea death... so much freedom.
This is somewhat relevant, Richard Dawkins book "The god delusion" has sold 4 million copies in Saudi Arabia, i am sure there are a lot of Apostates hiding there among other highly religious country's. This is why i think we should get things like the internet and other education tools into third world poor country's as fast as possible (if even possible) and get people thinking for themselves instead of being told what to think.
Some 2012 study found 5% of declared atheists in Saudi Arabia. Funny to see that even the most fundamentalist societies fail to achieve perfect reproduction.
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On August 18 2016 20:32 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 20:26 Reaps wrote:
Freedom to submit sure, now tell me what choice do people have that are born into religious family's, specifically ones who are born into muslim country's such as Saudi Arabia? They will be brought up as a muslim the second they are born, and when they get older and can start thinking for themselves and decide Islam is not for them and want to leave the religion? Whats the penalty for that? Oh yea death... so much freedom.
This is somewhat relevant, Richard Dawkins book "The god delusion" has sold 4 million copies in Saudi Arabia, i am sure there are a lot of Apostates hiding there among other highly religious country's. This is why i think we should get things like the internet and other education tools into third world poor country's as fast as possible (if even possible) and get people thinking for themselves instead of being told what to think. Some 2012 study found 5% of declared atheists in Saudi Arabia. Funny to see that even the most fundamentalist societies fail to achieve perfect reproduction.
Yes i can imagine and i am sure there are a lot more who are just scared to declare that.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On August 18 2016 20:32 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 20:26 Reaps wrote:
Freedom to submit sure, now tell me what choice do people have that are born into religious family's, specifically ones who are born into muslim country's such as Saudi Arabia? They will be brought up as a muslim the second they are born, and when they get older and can start thinking for themselves and decide Islam is not for them and want to leave the religion? Whats the penalty for that? Oh yea death... so much freedom.
This is somewhat relevant, Richard Dawkins book "The god delusion" has sold 4 million copies in Saudi Arabia, i am sure there are a lot of Apostates hiding there among other highly religious country's. This is why i think we should get things like the internet and other education tools into third world poor country's as fast as possible (if even possible) and get people thinking for themselves instead of being told what to think. Some 2012 study found 5% of declared atheists in Saudi Arabia. Funny to see that even the most fundamentalist societies fail to achieve perfect reproduction.
That seems high considering only between 0.7% and 3% of Americans are DECLARED atheist. For all non-religious people a combined 5% seems about right for very religious country like Saudi.
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On August 18 2016 20:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 20:07 OtherWorld wrote:On August 18 2016 20:03 SoSexy wrote:
Nyxisto you are one scary individual. What's scary in saying that authentic freedom includes freedom to submit? That's 100% true. Still kinda off from an historical perspective ; the idea of freedom as understood by the west today basically built itself against religion for a big part.
Deciding to submit to something or someone isn't necessarily a religious thing. It's just often a "comfort" thing (in the sense that it's much more comfortable not to think by yourself about what you should do, but instead follow guidelines).
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The US is a weird country in regards to atheism - in France it s around 30 %.
On August 18 2016 21:23 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 20:21 WhiteDog wrote:On August 18 2016 20:07 OtherWorld wrote:On August 18 2016 20:03 SoSexy wrote:
Nyxisto you are one scary individual. What's scary in saying that authentic freedom includes freedom to submit? That's 100% true. Still kinda off from an historical perspective ; the idea of freedom as understood by the west today basically built itself against religion for a big part. Deciding to submit to something or someone isn't necessarily a religious thing. It's just often a "comfort" thing (in the sense that it's much more comfortable not to think by yourself about what you should do, but instead follow guidelines).
Yeah I do not disagree. But see I said religions want submission (to god sure, but also the church) and Nyxisto respond that people should be free to submit. The fact is if you want to be free to submit to anything, then criticize religion because almost all monotheist religious faith condemn the right to apostasy - you can't even decide the god you want o submit to ! Ancient Greece was much more evolved in this regards - there was even a statue for the unknown god to show respect toward the unknown faiths.
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On August 18 2016 21:26 WhiteDog wrote:
The US is a weird country in regards to atheism - in France it s around 30 %.
France is also kind of an exception because of its anti-Christian post-revolutionary history though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Europe
On August 18 2016 21:26 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 21:23 OtherWorld wrote:On August 18 2016 20:21 WhiteDog wrote:On August 18 2016 20:07 OtherWorld wrote:On August 18 2016 20:03 SoSexy wrote:
Nyxisto you are one scary individual. What's scary in saying that authentic freedom includes freedom to submit? That's 100% true. Still kinda off from an historical perspective ; the idea of freedom as understood by the west today basically built itself against religion for a big part. Deciding to submit to something or someone isn't necessarily a religious thing. It's just often a "comfort" thing (in the sense that it's much more comfortable not to think by yourself about what you should do, but instead follow guidelines). Yeah I do not disagree. But see I said religions want submission (to god sure, but also the church) and Nyxisto respond that people should be free to submit. The fact is if you want to be free to submit to anything, then criticize religion because almost all monotheist religious faith condemn the right to apostasy - you can't even decide the god you want o submit to ! Ancient Greece was much more evolved in this regards - there was even a statue for the unknown god to show respect toward the unknown faiths.
Fair enough.
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Actually the USA is a big outliner, at least when compared to western europe/scandinavia with the exception of probably Italy (for obvious reasons).
At least the bigger outlier than France is when compared to other EU countries.
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Two versions of what's going on in France right now about the Burkini
Burkini after effects 1
- Muslims plant interdiction sign on the beaches
- They assault people trying to get on the beach
- Throwing rock and yelling "allah akbar" to women
- Showing their axes and firing harpoons if they are in "inappropriate clothing"
- Trying to make a little caliphate
Burkini after effects 2
- French taking pictures of women in burkini (can you actually send those to the police now that it's outlawed?)
- Muslims rightfully angered
- Brawl
Videos of tensions but not of the incidents or violence described.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
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