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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On August 13 2016 02:13 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:09 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 01:47 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 01:33 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 01:22 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 01:09 a_flayer wrote:
Holy crap, I just read your post in entirety, so... basically you agree with my previous post. So here we go: I'm pretty sure African-Americans "sacrificed" for hundreds of years on essentially your behalf. So yeah, I'm expecting you to sacrifice for an equal amount of time. But you're not really sacrificing anything, since you're still reaping the benefits from the society that was built, which is part of why it is taking so long.
This whole thing is just absolute madness. - Conquer a people - Accept it when they say, "ok you conquered us, we get to conquer you back because that's fair." Nope. The more advanced people fought and conquered a less civilized people. They won. To the victor go the spoils. Straight outta 1880, about time we draw lines on a map and conquer these African animals, right? No. Leave them alone for the most part. Focus on our own countries and what we can improve here. Rather than forcing more in, integrate the people we already have that feel disenfranchised and try to find solutions. Which is a meaningless platitude (something the left is guilty of all the time) but I think rather than saying, 'all cultures are equal' we have to be honest and call bullshit for what it is. There will always be tonnes of starving people in the world, and it's not our fault. It's nobody's fault except the parents who chose to have kids when they had no means to provide for them. Nor is it our duty or imperative to help them, because we will stretch ourselves too thin in attempting to do so. So take Chad for instance, iirc it's Chad or Niger. Probably both who knows. Anyway, women compete with each other somewhat in that the more children they bear, the more desirable they are or must seem. I literally have no business in this persons life or mindset, whether they live or die is not up to me, nor do I have a duty towards them. But with a birthrate of 7.6 or 6.3 respectively, I'm only one man, I can only do so much. I'm angry enough at dating women who don't pull their fair share, let alone having to pay for someone else's child that they should not have had to begin with. With this birth rate alone going by the, "we must help those in need" attitude, we will forever make ourselves slaves to those whom didn't have the foresight to close their legs. As for the might makes right lacking empathy, it's not lacking empathy nor is it devoid of empathy of compassion. It's simply accepting the truth that without a hierarchy of power chaos ensues. Dude. I know I shouldn't even answer but I will anyway. Let me get this clear : if you get in your truck, break in someone's property, drive over their dogs and kill their cows, and set fire to their house, are you going to walk out and be like "What? Helping them to recover what I've destroyed? Why? I've no business with them, I don't even know them" ? And even if you do react like that (which would not surprise me in the slightest, I have to say), do you think society is going to let you in peace ? No. Now if you look at actual History, that's pretty much what the West - or to be more precise, the UK/France/Germany/Italy/Spain/Portugal/Russia/the Netherlands/Belgium/settlers from these countries - did to basically every culture or ethnicity except Japan, with intensity ranging from "just break in and steal stuff" to "burn everything and kill everyone". From that historical fact, you have three broad choices : accept the fact and try to repair what you can, ignore the fact and live in perpetual denial (which, I guess, is fine as long as you don't try to argue stuff), or accept the fact and consider that the West had some divine right of exploiting the whole world, in which case you become a white supremacist. But if you are a white supremacist, please have the balls to argue honestly, instead of spewing mountains of abusive arguments based on no substancial evidence, things that only Trump and his campaign team would dare to say with a straight face. This kind of rethoric does not make sense to me. UK, France and all those bad countries have done some bad thing, yeah good - like every country. The oriental slavery was a genocide (systematically cutting black's genitals to prevent reproduction) that lasted way longer than the european one and nobody is asking reparation from the arabic countries. Like real, what made the civil right movement such a success, and what makes the black community in the US such an important historical actor is their capacity to pass their resentment and fight for actual rights, equality, etc. not for revenge. The occident has no debt towards the muslim.
I'm not saying the West should accept revenge, although I am saying that the West "deserved" it (not in a moral way ; in a purely "logical consequence" way) ; I'm saying the West should have learned by now that international issues are not to be dealt through humiliating or dehumanizing others, but through understanding - which is different from justifying - them. And I didn't mean to talk about muslims at all - I consider myself way too incompetent on the subject of religion - ; look instead at the whole of Africa. Those absurd borders are killing these countries - it's not the only thing, but it's one. Do you think the West holds no guilt towards this, and thus shouldn't strive when possible to make Africa a better place, instead of using that à la Françafrique ?
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On August 13 2016 02:23 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:13 WhiteDog wrote:On August 13 2016 02:09 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 01:47 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 01:33 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 01:22 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 01:09 a_flayer wrote:
Holy crap, I just read your post in entirety, so... basically you agree with my previous post. So here we go: I'm pretty sure African-Americans "sacrificed" for hundreds of years on essentially your behalf. So yeah, I'm expecting you to sacrifice for an equal amount of time. But you're not really sacrificing anything, since you're still reaping the benefits from the society that was built, which is part of why it is taking so long.
This whole thing is just absolute madness. - Conquer a people - Accept it when they say, "ok you conquered us, we get to conquer you back because that's fair." Nope. The more advanced people fought and conquered a less civilized people. They won. To the victor go the spoils. Straight outta 1880, about time we draw lines on a map and conquer these African animals, right? No. Leave them alone for the most part. Focus on our own countries and what we can improve here. Rather than forcing more in, integrate the people we already have that feel disenfranchised and try to find solutions. Which is a meaningless platitude (something the left is guilty of all the time) but I think rather than saying, 'all cultures are equal' we have to be honest and call bullshit for what it is. There will always be tonnes of starving people in the world, and it's not our fault. It's nobody's fault except the parents who chose to have kids when they had no means to provide for them. Nor is it our duty or imperative to help them, because we will stretch ourselves too thin in attempting to do so. So take Chad for instance, iirc it's Chad or Niger. Probably both who knows. Anyway, women compete with each other somewhat in that the more children they bear, the more desirable they are or must seem. I literally have no business in this persons life or mindset, whether they live or die is not up to me, nor do I have a duty towards them. But with a birthrate of 7.6 or 6.3 respectively, I'm only one man, I can only do so much. I'm angry enough at dating women who don't pull their fair share, let alone having to pay for someone else's child that they should not have had to begin with. With this birth rate alone going by the, "we must help those in need" attitude, we will forever make ourselves slaves to those whom didn't have the foresight to close their legs. As for the might makes right lacking empathy, it's not lacking empathy nor is it devoid of empathy of compassion. It's simply accepting the truth that without a hierarchy of power chaos ensues. Dude. I know I shouldn't even answer but I will anyway. Let me get this clear : if you get in your truck, break in someone's property, drive over their dogs and kill their cows, and set fire to their house, are you going to walk out and be like "What? Helping them to recover what I've destroyed? Why? I've no business with them, I don't even know them" ? And even if you do react like that (which would not surprise me in the slightest, I have to say), do you think society is going to let you in peace ? No. Now if you look at actual History, that's pretty much what the West - or to be more precise, the UK/France/Germany/Italy/Spain/Portugal/Russia/the Netherlands/Belgium/settlers from these countries - did to basically every culture or ethnicity except Japan, with intensity ranging from "just break in and steal stuff" to "burn everything and kill everyone". From that historical fact, you have three broad choices : accept the fact and try to repair what you can, ignore the fact and live in perpetual denial (which, I guess, is fine as long as you don't try to argue stuff), or accept the fact and consider that the West had some divine right of exploiting the whole world, in which case you become a white supremacist. But if you are a white supremacist, please have the balls to argue honestly, instead of spewing mountains of abusive arguments based on no substancial evidence, things that only Trump and his campaign team would dare to say with a straight face. This kind of rethoric does not make sense to me. UK, France and all those bad countries have done some bad thing, yeah good - like every country. The oriental slavery was a genocide (systematically cutting black's genitals to prevent reproduction) that lasted way longer than the european one and nobody is asking reparation from the arabic countries. Like real, what made the civil right movement such a success, and what makes the black community in the US such an important historical actor is their capacity to pass their resentment and fight for actual rights, equality, etc. not for revenge. The occident has no debt towards the muslim. I'm not saying the West should accept revenge, although I am saying that the West "deserved" it (not in a moral way ; in a purely "logical consequence" way) ; I'm saying the West should have learned by now that international issues are not to be dealt through humiliating or dehumanizing others, but through understanding - which is different from justifying - them. And I didn't mean to talk about muslims at all - I consider myself way too incompetent on the subject of religion - ; look instead at the whole of Africa. Those absurd borders are killing these countries - it's not the only thing, but it's one. Do you think the West holds no guilt towards this, and thus should strive when possible to make Africa a better place, instead of using that à la Françafrique ?
I totally agree with you then. But what Africa needs is not more understanding from us, what it needs is to be free from global competition and the pillaging of natural ressources that we still force on them. And this is way beyond Europe - think about what China is doing there at the moment.
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On August 13 2016 02:26 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:23 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 02:13 WhiteDog wrote:On August 13 2016 02:09 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 01:47 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 01:33 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 01:22 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 01:09 a_flayer wrote:
Holy crap, I just read your post in entirety, so... basically you agree with my previous post. So here we go: I'm pretty sure African-Americans "sacrificed" for hundreds of years on essentially your behalf. So yeah, I'm expecting you to sacrifice for an equal amount of time. But you're not really sacrificing anything, since you're still reaping the benefits from the society that was built, which is part of why it is taking so long.
This whole thing is just absolute madness. - Conquer a people - Accept it when they say, "ok you conquered us, we get to conquer you back because that's fair." Nope. The more advanced people fought and conquered a less civilized people. They won. To the victor go the spoils. Straight outta 1880, about time we draw lines on a map and conquer these African animals, right? No. Leave them alone for the most part. Focus on our own countries and what we can improve here. Rather than forcing more in, integrate the people we already have that feel disenfranchised and try to find solutions. Which is a meaningless platitude (something the left is guilty of all the time) but I think rather than saying, 'all cultures are equal' we have to be honest and call bullshit for what it is. There will always be tonnes of starving people in the world, and it's not our fault. It's nobody's fault except the parents who chose to have kids when they had no means to provide for them. Nor is it our duty or imperative to help them, because we will stretch ourselves too thin in attempting to do so. So take Chad for instance, iirc it's Chad or Niger. Probably both who knows. Anyway, women compete with each other somewhat in that the more children they bear, the more desirable they are or must seem. I literally have no business in this persons life or mindset, whether they live or die is not up to me, nor do I have a duty towards them. But with a birthrate of 7.6 or 6.3 respectively, I'm only one man, I can only do so much. I'm angry enough at dating women who don't pull their fair share, let alone having to pay for someone else's child that they should not have had to begin with. With this birth rate alone going by the, "we must help those in need" attitude, we will forever make ourselves slaves to those whom didn't have the foresight to close their legs. As for the might makes right lacking empathy, it's not lacking empathy nor is it devoid of empathy of compassion. It's simply accepting the truth that without a hierarchy of power chaos ensues. Dude. I know I shouldn't even answer but I will anyway. Let me get this clear : if you get in your truck, break in someone's property, drive over their dogs and kill their cows, and set fire to their house, are you going to walk out and be like "What? Helping them to recover what I've destroyed? Why? I've no business with them, I don't even know them" ? And even if you do react like that (which would not surprise me in the slightest, I have to say), do you think society is going to let you in peace ? No. Now if you look at actual History, that's pretty much what the West - or to be more precise, the UK/France/Germany/Italy/Spain/Portugal/Russia/the Netherlands/Belgium/settlers from these countries - did to basically every culture or ethnicity except Japan, with intensity ranging from "just break in and steal stuff" to "burn everything and kill everyone". From that historical fact, you have three broad choices : accept the fact and try to repair what you can, ignore the fact and live in perpetual denial (which, I guess, is fine as long as you don't try to argue stuff), or accept the fact and consider that the West had some divine right of exploiting the whole world, in which case you become a white supremacist. But if you are a white supremacist, please have the balls to argue honestly, instead of spewing mountains of abusive arguments based on no substancial evidence, things that only Trump and his campaign team would dare to say with a straight face. This kind of rethoric does not make sense to me. UK, France and all those bad countries have done some bad thing, yeah good - like every country. The oriental slavery was a genocide (systematically cutting black's genitals to prevent reproduction) that lasted way longer than the european one and nobody is asking reparation from the arabic countries. Like real, what made the civil right movement such a success, and what makes the black community in the US such an important historical actor is their capacity to pass their resentment and fight for actual rights, equality, etc. not for revenge. The occident has no debt towards the muslim. I'm not saying the West should accept revenge, although I am saying that the West "deserved" it (not in a moral way ; in a purely "logical consequence" way) ; I'm saying the West should have learned by now that international issues are not to be dealt through humiliating or dehumanizing others, but through understanding - which is different from justifying - them. And I didn't mean to talk about muslims at all - I consider myself way too incompetent on the subject of religion - ; look instead at the whole of Africa. Those absurd borders are killing these countries - it's not the only thing, but it's one. Do you think the West holds no guilt towards this, and thus should strive when possible to make Africa a better place, instead of using that à la Françafrique ? I totally agree with you then. But what Africa needs is not more understanding from us, what it needs is to be free from global competition and the pillaging of natural ressources that we still force on them. And this is way beyond France - think about what China is doing there at the moment.
We have an understanding, then. And I agree about China, but il faut d'abord balayer devant sa porte, as they say.
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On August 13 2016 02:12 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:05 Ghostcom wrote:On August 13 2016 02:01 a_flayer wrote:On August 13 2016 01:39 Ghostcom wrote:
Would all the shitposters please go back to the US politics thread? Thank you. Sorry, I'm treating this as a livethread more or less. I need to stay out of these threads, really. Nah, apparently I'm the one that needs to stay away. When even moderators think this is the level of discourse then it's obviously me who is in the wrong. It's almost tragicomic that this is a prime example of how a few bad apples ruins it for all the good people out there. It would help if you'd point out clearly who do you think is shitposting, since basically everyone on the last two pages is coming from the US thread... For instance, I have no idea if what you consider shitposting is Testie's posts, or the oneliners that followed, or my own posts, etc
The posts towards the end of page 514 and the first posts of 515 are shitposts. No one is arguing in good faith (like it happens in the US thread all the time) and we end up with a mod literally equating a poster to Hitler (In the US thread it's at least usually a politician who gets that honor). The very same mod who a couple of pages ago got pissed because he didn't like equating people who weren't actually as bad as terrorists to terrorists. The hypocrisy is so fucking thick that it amazes me Drone managed to pull it off with a straight face.
EDIT: To top it off, we now have the very same posters (Plansix, a_flayer) who call other posters bigots, xenophobes and racists for judging entire groups based on the actions of a few arguing that the original sin as a concept is totally reasonable. Again, the hypocrisy is so fucking thick it hurts. For the record I by and large agree with you and WhiteDog on the topic of exploitation, historical as well as current.
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On August 13 2016 02:30 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:12 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 02:05 Ghostcom wrote:On August 13 2016 02:01 a_flayer wrote:On August 13 2016 01:39 Ghostcom wrote:
Would all the shitposters please go back to the US politics thread? Thank you. Sorry, I'm treating this as a livethread more or less. I need to stay out of these threads, really. Nah, apparently I'm the one that needs to stay away. When even moderators think this is the level of discourse then it's obviously me who is in the wrong. It's almost tragicomic that this is a prime example of how a few bad apples ruins it for all the good people out there. It would help if you'd point out clearly who do you think is shitposting, since basically everyone on the last two pages is coming from the US thread... For instance, I have no idea if what you consider shitposting is Testie's posts, or the oneliners that followed, or my own posts, etc The posts towards the end of page 514 and the first posts of 515 are shitposts. No one is arguing in good faith (like it happens in the US thread all the time) and we end up with a mod literally equating a poster to Hitler (In the US thread it's at least usually a politician who gets that honor). The very same mod who a couple of pages ago got pissed because he didn't like equating people who weren't actually as bad as terrorists to terrorists. The hypocrisy is so fucking thick that it amazes me Drone managed to pull it off with a straight face.
Drone's posts are always well written, clear, well argumented. He never used his power as a mod to impose a certain vision or anything.
Seriously, you can disagree with his points, but saying he is a shitposter is a joke.
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On August 13 2016 02:34 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:30 Ghostcom wrote:On August 13 2016 02:12 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 02:05 Ghostcom wrote:On August 13 2016 02:01 a_flayer wrote:On August 13 2016 01:39 Ghostcom wrote:
Would all the shitposters please go back to the US politics thread? Thank you. Sorry, I'm treating this as a livethread more or less. I need to stay out of these threads, really. Nah, apparently I'm the one that needs to stay away. When even moderators think this is the level of discourse then it's obviously me who is in the wrong. It's almost tragicomic that this is a prime example of how a few bad apples ruins it for all the good people out there. It would help if you'd point out clearly who do you think is shitposting, since basically everyone on the last two pages is coming from the US thread... For instance, I have no idea if what you consider shitposting is Testie's posts, or the oneliners that followed, or my own posts, etc The posts towards the end of page 514 and the first posts of 515 are shitposts. No one is arguing in good faith (like it happens in the US thread all the time) and we end up with a mod literally equating a poster to Hitler (In the US thread it's at least usually a politician who gets that honor). The very same mod who a couple of pages ago got pissed because he didn't like equating people who weren't actually as bad as terrorists to terrorists. The hypocrisy is so fucking thick that it amazes me Drone managed to pull it off with a straight face. Drone's posts are always well written, clear, well argumented. He never used his power as a mod to impose a certain vision or anything. Seriously, you can disagree with his points, but saying he is a shitposter is seriously a joke.
What was this then?
On August 13 2016 01:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
ye, testie is more like this other german guy whose name starts with H. I get the confusion.
I'll give you clear, but neither well written, nor well argumented.
In general I agree with you - I usually find his posts insightful. But this was shit.
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On August 13 2016 02:36 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:34 WhiteDog wrote:On August 13 2016 02:30 Ghostcom wrote:On August 13 2016 02:12 OtherWorld wrote:On August 13 2016 02:05 Ghostcom wrote:On August 13 2016 02:01 a_flayer wrote:On August 13 2016 01:39 Ghostcom wrote:
Would all the shitposters please go back to the US politics thread? Thank you. Sorry, I'm treating this as a livethread more or less. I need to stay out of these threads, really. Nah, apparently I'm the one that needs to stay away. When even moderators think this is the level of discourse then it's obviously me who is in the wrong. It's almost tragicomic that this is a prime example of how a few bad apples ruins it for all the good people out there. It would help if you'd point out clearly who do you think is shitposting, since basically everyone on the last two pages is coming from the US thread... For instance, I have no idea if what you consider shitposting is Testie's posts, or the oneliners that followed, or my own posts, etc The posts towards the end of page 514 and the first posts of 515 are shitposts. No one is arguing in good faith (like it happens in the US thread all the time) and we end up with a mod literally equating a poster to Hitler (In the US thread it's at least usually a politician who gets that honor). The very same mod who a couple of pages ago got pissed because he didn't like equating people who weren't actually as bad as terrorists to terrorists. The hypocrisy is so fucking thick that it amazes me Drone managed to pull it off with a straight face. Drone's posts are always well written, clear, well argumented. He never used his power as a mod to impose a certain vision or anything. Seriously, you can disagree with his points, but saying he is a shitposter is seriously a joke. What was this then? Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 01:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
ye, testie is more like this other german guy whose name starts with H. I get the confusion. I'll give you clear, but neither well written, nor well argumented. In general I agree with you - I usually find his posts insightful. But this was shit.
Seriously, some of Testie's arguments were so outrageously bad that I guess this kind of joke was the only sane response. The underlying social darwinism that he display from time to time makes you write this kind of things.
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Norway28695 Posts
I was actually expecting someone to be offended, for me to follow it up with 'I meant Heidegger, because he makes no sense'. Sorry if you became so offended that it ruined your faith in me and the forum. I honestly thought it was a clever joke.
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Many of us have been on this site for a while now and attempted good faith discussion with Testie. At point one he accused me of being at traitor to my country because I disliked my country’s culture American exceptionalism. Do not expect people to waste their time hoping this time will be different.
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On August 13 2016 02:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I was actually expecting someone to be offended, for me to follow it up with 'I meant Heidegger, because he makes no sense'. Sorry if you became so offended that it ruined your faith in me and the forum. I honestly thought it was a clever joke.
Ha come on Heidegger is brilliant ! You managed to offend me now.
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If someone argues that Hitler did nothing wrong and the Holocaust never happened which option so you chose?
A) Ignore it and/or report it
B) Engage it and derail a thread
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Agreed, it was pretty good.
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Norway28695 Posts
That said, the joke only works (at least to me) because Testie's racist social darwinism advocacy is so strong that everyone will immediately jump to assuming I meant Hitler. I wouldn't even think it was that much of a shitpost if it didn't have another layer to it.
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On August 13 2016 02:23 OtherWorld wrote:
I'm not saying the West should accept revenge, although I am saying that the West "deserved" it (not in a moral way ; in a purely "logical consequence" way) ; I'm saying the West should have learned by now that international issues are not to be dealt through humiliating or dehumanizing others, but through understanding - which is different from justifying - them. And I didn't mean to talk about muslims at all - I consider myself way too incompetent on the subject of religion - ; look instead at the whole of Africa. Those absurd borders are killing these countries - it's not the only thing, but it's one. Do you think the West holds no guilt towards this, and thus shouldn't strive when possible to make Africa a better place, instead of using that à la Françafrique ?
And I'm saying the west deserved nothing. If they didn't come to power first and do it first another would have. And then you'd just have a different class of the exploited.
The west has no blame, the west has no guilt, the west does not have to share in the spoils simply because it was better at it than everyone else who attempted it. If anything, I'm glad they were better at it because as we speak I'm sitting in the sky talking to you through a magic box that can have a healthy exchange of ideas between men.
Africa is still a very, very rich continent with a lot of untapped resources. It's just not being used effectively. That's not our fault. There's over a billion people in Africa now. We literally have no obligation to help a single one of them today. And we should only do it if it's going to be excessively profitable.
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Looks like I can't give you clear, but instead well thought-out
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On August 13 2016 02:13 WhiteDog wrote:The occident has no debt towards the muslim. What we owe to ourselves is to live together, not to repair something a very thin minority profited from ages ago. This discussion is not hegelian, it's nietzschean by the way 
I don't know what occident, hegelian, or nietzschean means, but I think that the west has continued to bring war to the middle east after world war 2 by putting certain people in power and constantly supplying weapons to keep those people in power. I think terrorism is a direct result of this constant interference. I think this interference has much to do with the oil that we get from there, and I think that the people there are suffering because of it (or at least not seeing the benefits they should from all the money that is involved). Then a few select people are using the people's religion/belief to fuel the hatred for the west that already exists because of that constant interference and extraction of resources.
I may be wrong about this (again, barely any high school and no fancy college degrees, I don't read a lot either), but this has been my conclusion, and because of this I feel the west has brought this on themselves, just as they did the higher percentage of "criminal blacks" and whatnot as a result of the years of slavery/inequality. That is not to say I condone terrorism or the killing of people in any way shape or form, just that there may be some form of "debt" towards the middle east as well.
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On August 13 2016 02:55 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:23 OtherWorld wrote:
I'm not saying the West should accept revenge, although I am saying that the West "deserved" it (not in a moral way ; in a purely "logical consequence" way) ; I'm saying the West should have learned by now that international issues are not to be dealt through humiliating or dehumanizing others, but through understanding - which is different from justifying - them. And I didn't mean to talk about muslims at all - I consider myself way too incompetent on the subject of religion - ; look instead at the whole of Africa. Those absurd borders are killing these countries - it's not the only thing, but it's one. Do you think the West holds no guilt towards this, and thus shouldn't strive when possible to make Africa a better place, instead of using that à la Françafrique ? And I'm saying the west deserved nothing. If they didn't come to power first and do it first another would have. And then you'd just have a different class of the exploited. The west has no blame, the west has no guilt, the west does not have to share in the spoils simply because it was better at it than everyone else who attempted it. If anything, I'm glad they were better at it because as we speak I'm sitting in the sky talking to you through a magic box that can have a healthy exchange of ideas between men. Africa is still a very, very rich continent with a lot of untapped resources. It's just not being used effectively. That's not our fault. There's over a billion people in Africa now. We literally have no obligation to help a single one of them today. And we should only do it if it's going to be excessively profitable.
The West was not better at anything, was just lucky. I suggest reading J. Diamond's work on the inequality amongst human societies.
On August 13 2016 03:01 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:13 WhiteDog wrote:The occident has no debt towards the muslim. What we owe to ourselves is to live together, not to repair something a very thin minority profited from ages ago. This discussion is not hegelian, it's nietzschean by the way I don't know what occident, hegelian, or nietzschean means, but I think that the west has continued to bring war to the middle east after world war 2 by putting certain people in power and constantly supplying weapons to keep those people in power. I think terrorism is a direct result of this constant interference. I think this interference has much to do with the oil that we get from there, and I think that the people there are suffering because of it (or at least not seeing the benefits they should from all the money that is involved). Then a few select people are using the people's religion/belief to fuel the hatred for the west that already exists because of that constant interference and extraction of resources. I may be wrong about this (again, barely any high school and no fancy college degrees, I don't read a lot either), but this has been my conclusion, and because of this I feel the west has brought this on themselves, just as they did the higher percentage of "criminal blacks" and whatnot as a result of the years of slavery/inequality. That is not to say I condone terrorism or the killing of people in any way shape or form, just that there may be some form of "debt" towards the middle east as well.
Yeah sure the West made tons of crimes, but not only they're not the only ones, but more than that it's irrelevant. What's your goal ? Revenge ? Or actual progress ? If it's progress, forget resentment, that is what I was saying. Resentment is the kind of thing that makes you legitimize the creation of guantanamo or attacking Iraq after 9/11 like it's actually a good response.
Also I'm against collective punition ; it's not "the west" that pillaged Africa, enslaved and colonized, it's their state under the authority of a fraction of the bourgeoisie. 1.4 % of Americans had slaves, most colonies were first made by private firms for profits, and the vast majority of the worker class didn't profit from colonization.
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On August 13 2016 03:01 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 02:55 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 02:23 OtherWorld wrote:
I'm not saying the West should accept revenge, although I am saying that the West "deserved" it (not in a moral way ; in a purely "logical consequence" way) ; I'm saying the West should have learned by now that international issues are not to be dealt through humiliating or dehumanizing others, but through understanding - which is different from justifying - them. And I didn't mean to talk about muslims at all - I consider myself way too incompetent on the subject of religion - ; look instead at the whole of Africa. Those absurd borders are killing these countries - it's not the only thing, but it's one. Do you think the West holds no guilt towards this, and thus shouldn't strive when possible to make Africa a better place, instead of using that à la Françafrique ? And I'm saying the west deserved nothing. If they didn't come to power first and do it first another would have. And then you'd just have a different class of the exploited. The west has no blame, the west has no guilt, the west does not have to share in the spoils simply because it was better at it than everyone else who attempted it. If anything, I'm glad they were better at it because as we speak I'm sitting in the sky talking to you through a magic box that can have a healthy exchange of ideas between men. Africa is still a very, very rich continent with a lot of untapped resources. It's just not being used effectively. That's not our fault. There's over a billion people in Africa now. We literally have no obligation to help a single one of them today. And we should only do it if it's going to be excessively profitable. The West was not better at anything, was just lucky. I suggest reading J. Diamond's work on the inequality amongst human societies. Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 03:01 a_flayer wrote:On August 13 2016 02:13 WhiteDog wrote:The occident has no debt towards the muslim. What we owe to ourselves is to live together, not to repair something a very thin minority profited from ages ago. This discussion is not hegelian, it's nietzschean by the way I don't know what occident, hegelian, or nietzschean means, but I think that the west has continued to bring war to the middle east after world war 2 by putting certain people in power and constantly supplying weapons to keep those people in power. I think terrorism is a direct result of this constant interference. I think this interference has much to do with the oil that we get from there, and I think that the people there are suffering because of it (or at least not seeing the benefits they should from all the money that is involved). Then a few select people are using the people's religion/belief to fuel the hatred for the west that already exists because of that constant interference and extraction of resources. I may be wrong about this (again, barely any high school and no fancy college degrees, I don't read a lot either), but this has been my conclusion, and because of this I feel the west has brought this on themselves, just as they did the higher percentage of "criminal blacks" and whatnot as a result of the years of slavery/inequality. That is not to say I condone terrorism or the killing of people in any way shape or form, just that there may be some form of "debt" towards the middle east as well. Yeah sure the West made tons of crimes, but not only they're not the only ones, but more than that it's irrelevant. What's your goal ? Revenge ? Or actual progress ? If it's progress, forget resentment, that is what I was saying. Resentment is the kind of thing that makes you legitimize attacking the Iraq after 9/11 like it's actually a good response. Also I'm against collective punition ; it's not "the west" that pillaged Africa, enslaved and colonized, it's their state under the authority of a fraction of the bourgeoisie. 1.4 % of Americans had slaves, most colonies were first made by private firms for profits, and the worker class didn't profit from colonization.
I'm going to make this statement simply to poll your beliefs (without judgement, believe me): lets burn the multinationals to the ground?
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On August 13 2016 03:09 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 03:01 WhiteDog wrote:On August 13 2016 02:55 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 02:23 OtherWorld wrote:
I'm not saying the West should accept revenge, although I am saying that the West "deserved" it (not in a moral way ; in a purely "logical consequence" way) ; I'm saying the West should have learned by now that international issues are not to be dealt through humiliating or dehumanizing others, but through understanding - which is different from justifying - them. And I didn't mean to talk about muslims at all - I consider myself way too incompetent on the subject of religion - ; look instead at the whole of Africa. Those absurd borders are killing these countries - it's not the only thing, but it's one. Do you think the West holds no guilt towards this, and thus shouldn't strive when possible to make Africa a better place, instead of using that à la Françafrique ? And I'm saying the west deserved nothing. If they didn't come to power first and do it first another would have. And then you'd just have a different class of the exploited. The west has no blame, the west has no guilt, the west does not have to share in the spoils simply because it was better at it than everyone else who attempted it. If anything, I'm glad they were better at it because as we speak I'm sitting in the sky talking to you through a magic box that can have a healthy exchange of ideas between men. Africa is still a very, very rich continent with a lot of untapped resources. It's just not being used effectively. That's not our fault. There's over a billion people in Africa now. We literally have no obligation to help a single one of them today. And we should only do it if it's going to be excessively profitable. The West was not better at anything, was just lucky. I suggest reading J. Diamond's work on the inequality amongst human societies. On August 13 2016 03:01 a_flayer wrote:On August 13 2016 02:13 WhiteDog wrote:The occident has no debt towards the muslim. What we owe to ourselves is to live together, not to repair something a very thin minority profited from ages ago. This discussion is not hegelian, it's nietzschean by the way I don't know what occident, hegelian, or nietzschean means, but I think that the west has continued to bring war to the middle east after world war 2 by putting certain people in power and constantly supplying weapons to keep those people in power. I think terrorism is a direct result of this constant interference. I think this interference has much to do with the oil that we get from there, and I think that the people there are suffering because of it (or at least not seeing the benefits they should from all the money that is involved). Then a few select people are using the people's religion/belief to fuel the hatred for the west that already exists because of that constant interference and extraction of resources. I may be wrong about this (again, barely any high school and no fancy college degrees, I don't read a lot either), but this has been my conclusion, and because of this I feel the west has brought this on themselves, just as they did the higher percentage of "criminal blacks" and whatnot as a result of the years of slavery/inequality. That is not to say I condone terrorism or the killing of people in any way shape or form, just that there may be some form of "debt" towards the middle east as well. Yeah sure the West made tons of crimes, but not only they're not the only ones, but more than that it's irrelevant. What's your goal ? Revenge ? Or actual progress ? If it's progress, forget resentment, that is what I was saying. Resentment is the kind of thing that makes you legitimize attacking the Iraq after 9/11 like it's actually a good response. Also I'm against collective punition ; it's not "the west" that pillaged Africa, enslaved and colonized, it's their state under the authority of a fraction of the bourgeoisie. 1.4 % of Americans had slaves, most colonies were first made by private firms for profits, and the worker class didn't profit from colonization. I'm going to make this statement simply to poll your beliefs (without judgement, believe me): lets burn the multinationals to the ground?
If everything was that simple.
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On August 13 2016 03:10 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2016 03:09 a_flayer wrote:On August 13 2016 03:01 WhiteDog wrote:On August 13 2016 02:55 SK.Testie wrote:On August 13 2016 02:23 OtherWorld wrote:
I'm not saying the West should accept revenge, although I am saying that the West "deserved" it (not in a moral way ; in a purely "logical consequence" way) ; I'm saying the West should have learned by now that international issues are not to be dealt through humiliating or dehumanizing others, but through understanding - which is different from justifying - them. And I didn't mean to talk about muslims at all - I consider myself way too incompetent on the subject of religion - ; look instead at the whole of Africa. Those absurd borders are killing these countries - it's not the only thing, but it's one. Do you think the West holds no guilt towards this, and thus shouldn't strive when possible to make Africa a better place, instead of using that à la Françafrique ? And I'm saying the west deserved nothing. If they didn't come to power first and do it first another would have. And then you'd just have a different class of the exploited. The west has no blame, the west has no guilt, the west does not have to share in the spoils simply because it was better at it than everyone else who attempted it. If anything, I'm glad they were better at it because as we speak I'm sitting in the sky talking to you through a magic box that can have a healthy exchange of ideas between men. Africa is still a very, very rich continent with a lot of untapped resources. It's just not being used effectively. That's not our fault. There's over a billion people in Africa now. We literally have no obligation to help a single one of them today. And we should only do it if it's going to be excessively profitable. The West was not better at anything, was just lucky. I suggest reading J. Diamond's work on the inequality amongst human societies. On August 13 2016 03:01 a_flayer wrote:On August 13 2016 02:13 WhiteDog wrote:The occident has no debt towards the muslim. What we owe to ourselves is to live together, not to repair something a very thin minority profited from ages ago. This discussion is not hegelian, it's nietzschean by the way I don't know what occident, hegelian, or nietzschean means, but I think that the west has continued to bring war to the middle east after world war 2 by putting certain people in power and constantly supplying weapons to keep those people in power. I think terrorism is a direct result of this constant interference. I think this interference has much to do with the oil that we get from there, and I think that the people there are suffering because of it (or at least not seeing the benefits they should from all the money that is involved). Then a few select people are using the people's religion/belief to fuel the hatred for the west that already exists because of that constant interference and extraction of resources. I may be wrong about this (again, barely any high school and no fancy college degrees, I don't read a lot either), but this has been my conclusion, and because of this I feel the west has brought this on themselves, just as they did the higher percentage of "criminal blacks" and whatnot as a result of the years of slavery/inequality. That is not to say I condone terrorism or the killing of people in any way shape or form, just that there may be some form of "debt" towards the middle east as well. Yeah sure the West made tons of crimes, but not only they're not the only ones, but more than that it's irrelevant. What's your goal ? Revenge ? Or actual progress ? If it's progress, forget resentment, that is what I was saying. Resentment is the kind of thing that makes you legitimize attacking the Iraq after 9/11 like it's actually a good response. Also I'm against collective punition ; it's not "the west" that pillaged Africa, enslaved and colonized, it's their state under the authority of a fraction of the bourgeoisie. 1.4 % of Americans had slaves, most colonies were first made by private firms for profits, and the worker class didn't profit from colonization. I'm going to make this statement simply to poll your beliefs (without judgement, believe me): lets burn the multinationals to the ground? If everything was that simple.
Which is why I think we should all take responsibility.
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EPT
