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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8758 Posts
now that would be a sight for sore eyes. somalia in the midst of europe... of course everything is relative. and on this note let me point out that we should be eternally thankful to our governments they don't act like Hitler or Stalin for criticizing them! | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On December 16 2014 22:24 Simberto wrote: That is true, but greece is nowhere near the bottom yet. You could always become Somalia. Down is always relative, and you can pretty much always go lower. So your point of comparaison is somalia... Great : the european policies did not pushed greece back to somalia's level. That's a pretty good argument. Meanwhile, Ireland with a higher deficit in 2009 had growth in 2011 and didn't stop to grow since then... Some data on Greece (french document) : ![[image loading]](http://www.okeanews.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Aust%C3%A9rit%C3%A9EnGr%C3%A8ce.jpg) From 2007 to 2013: 44% increase in suicide, poverty rate at 32 %, poverty risk increase of 22% on average and 44% for youth, public debt increase of 36.5 %, loss in wage 38 %, loss in pensions 45 %, total savings - 32 %, productivity -8.8 %, production volume -23.5 %, infant morality + 36.5 %, vaccination rate on children - 20 %, 30 % of firms closed... Seriously, what can you say about that ? You think it's a good picture ? Only a tard like Schlaube can say it's a success. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11904 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8758 Posts
understand the business cycle. and that brings me to my next question, I don't buy for a second that mantra of "if greece falls, the euro falls" bullshit - what does Whitedog think of that? how could 3% of the economic output(pre GFC number) of the whole eurozone kill all of it? | ||
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EtherealBlade
660 Posts
On December 16 2014 22:58 Doublemint wrote: it is not nonsense... you can't fall much deeper in economic terms in such a short period of time as a first world country, not only that but be forced to go down that road. if I were Greece I would have kept my sovereignty and leave the eurozone - at least temporarily. understand the business cycle. and that brings me to my next question, I don't buy for a second that mantra of "if greece falls, the euro falls" bullshit - what does Whitedog think of that? how could 3% of the economic output(pre GFC number) of the whole eurozone kill all of it? I think if one country is allowed to leave the Eurozone that would harm trust in the Euro so seriously that it would - sooner or later - bring it all down. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8758 Posts
On December 16 2014 23:11 EtherealBlade wrote: I think if one country is allowed to leave the Eurozone that would harm trust in the Euro so seriously that it would - sooner or later - bring it all down. yeah I read that, and there seems to be a lot of consensus in the media around it. though I really do doubt the merits of the statement. I see a lot of special interest involved as well with this concept. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
you reap what you sow. everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8758 Posts
Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. how considerate of you to make it clear(er) you are a proponent of the general german position. even if it's highly misleading. | ||
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote: the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure you reap what you sow. everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. Pretty sure the average Greek citizen had nothing to do with it. It's so easy to justify letting Greece burn with a mentality of "oh you reap what you sow" and "they brought it upon themselves" isn't it. I'm guessing the German government never makes mistakes. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote: the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure you reap what you sow. everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. Most EU finance ministers of the EU knew Greece lied about its debt figures back then but the EU still let them join anyway. Nothing is ever one-sided in cases like this. The Euro was a political project more than an economic one; it was a statement. But yes, there's no denying that none of this would have happened if Greece wasn't corrupt to its very core. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10910 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8758 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:26 Velr wrote: Austerity works and is necessary and i believe inforcing it can be right.. BUT not in the midst of a friggin crisis. this. every ailment needs its own medicine. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:22 maartendq wrote: Most EU finance ministers of the EU knew Greece lied about its debt figures back then but the EU still let them join anyway. Nothing is ever one-sided in cases like this. The Euro was a political project more than an economic one; it was a statement. But yes, there's no denying that none of this would have happened if Greece wasn't corrupt to its very core. You think Germany is less corrupt than Greece ? And Europe ? And France ? The political system is corrupted, and the simple fact that the european imposed a budgetary policy on Greek is a beautiful proof of that. The greeks are merely the victim of the state of politics, and saying "you reap what you sow" is not only a heartless comment but quite a stupid one. The people that lost their jobs, or the ones that lost their kids due to budgetary cuts, had nothing to do with the sad state of Greek politics. Hopefully the Greeks will vote right, change their stance with europe and maybe even leave the euro. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
And not every country is equally corrupt, that is simply not true. The amount of tax evasion that is going on in Greece and some of the smaller European economies is ridiculous. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
That the state is weak in Greece (like in southern Italy), for obvious reasons, is another topic entirely. I don't see how a high deficit and a high debt / GDP ratio is a crime against humanity that needs punishment. All in all it's only money. Again the european community prove how beautiful a "community" it is. And do you think austerity can fix the weakness of Greek state ? Everything that has been done just made everything worse. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8758 Posts
I still don't buy it, even though only our looney parties in Austria were against the esm and before that the "rescue" for the euro and greece a couple of years ago. if that really is the case, then something is terribly wrong here. economy is not my forte and I would like to know from someone who seems to have a good grasp of the situation. //edit: regarding the maastricht criteria, look at how much budget discipline germany and others showed during the years of Schröder - and how it was enforced. btw. those were the GOOD times. before the GFC. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
With or without greece it was doomed anyway. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8758 Posts
is it irreparable? with the current leadership I can see your frustration but technically it is not beyond hope, no?. big measures like eurobonds, less german centric. or just slow steps towards strengthening the south against the northern countries to have less imbalances. just food for thought please  | ||
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