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On December 17 2014 02:12 Doublemint wrote:haha I knew something like that would come :p is it irreparable? with the current leadership I can see your frustration but technically it is not beyond hope, no?. big measures like eurobonds, less german centric. or just slow steps towards strengthening the south against the northern countries to have less imbalances. just food for thought please 
There are no technical solutions and everything was foretold forty years ago. Basically a common currency in a specific region can work under certain conditions. Those conditions are not all economic, most of them are politic and historic / cultural. The european union as a project was started on the right foot : it was a political union built around a common desire to put the wars and conflicts behind us. It was also a way for UK and France to muzzle a Germany that somehow lost itself during the 2nd WW (that was quite central if you look at Tatcher and Mitterand point of view on the reunification of Germany, and in my opinion it explains a lot why the UK is now almost getting out of the european union).
But somewhere in the way, maybe because Germany grown into one of the most respected nation and while we commonly forgot the past two hundred years, the project reduced itself to a unified market and an economic union : it's pretty easy to understand that, you only need to see what's discussed at the european level (question of competition, energy efficiency / investment, uniformisation of the norms for exchange and labor, etc.).
The problem is building a common currency without the cultural / political institutions was a mistake that cannot be fixed now because the current crisis, caused by an exogene shock and perpetuated by the weakness of the currency union, intensified the competition and the inequalities between countries in the union, to a point where it actually degraded the image of the union in the mind of the people. Again, this line of event was basically foretold in 1960 with the optimal currency area theory (check on wiki if you desire to do some economic theory).
Without the support of the people, support that has been lost by the terrific management of the crisis and the stupid incapacity of our leader to understand the economic and political value of solidarity, there are no ground to build the necessary political institutions (fiscal transfert, laws on a unification of a labor market, etc.) to make the common currency work. So we're stuck in a middle ground position, with a half done common currency that does more damage than anything.
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But it's pretty hard to build common cultural ground with France and the UK, especially the UK seems to be so strongly opposed to any kind of interference into their national business that I have problems imagining how any progress could have been made . The main hope behind introducing the Euro first was that after the currency is in place it would actually become easier to decrease cultural disparities because there is some actual motivation to do so.
If Germany would push stronger for some kind of European integration I bet my ass nationalist parties in Southern Europe would jump onto the "the evil German hegemony is back" bandwagon, and if we do nothing everyone's screaming "hey look, they abuse the weak currency to sell their crap". You can't have it both ways , either there is real European integration which will make the economy work better but also cost national sovereignty, or you have what we have now.
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On December 17 2014 02:41 Nyxisto wrote:
But it's pretty hard to build common cultural ground with France and the UK, especially the UK seems to be so strongly opposed to any kind of interference into their national business that I have problems imagining how any progress could have been made .
Yes but the UK is not in the common currency area. Imo the UK always saw the europe from a strategic point of view (way to muzzle germany / make money) and not as a tool to create a real partnership and hopefully a community in europe. We, the french, were the opposite : we couldn't prevent ourself from using a language of emotion in regard to europe and germany (the franco-german "couple") which explains why we were always at the core of every step in europe (we were motivated by more than economic matters).
The main hope behind introducing the Euro was that after the currency is in place it would actually become easier to decrease cultural disparities because there is some actual motivation to do so.
And it was a stupid hope. It was also based around the idea that a fix parity between countries was possible - basically they put aside the optimum currency area theory, and preferred some other theories.
If Germany would push stronger for some kind of European integration I bet my ass nationalist parties in Southern Europe would jump onto the "the evil German hegemony is back" bandwagon, and if we do nothing everyone's screaming "hey look, they abuse the weak currency to sell their crap". You can't have it both ways , either their is real European integration with will make the economy work better but also cost national sovereignty, or you have what we have now.
But please how about you look at reality ? How did germany used the european union ? To push for its own interest ? Germany, much like the UK, never invested any kind of emotions in the building of the european union. Imo it has less place than the UK in the currency area but that's my point of view.
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hm I see. so not completely hopeless 
yes the euro has major flaws - the EU as an institution has major flaws!
however I would argue that the EU was first and foremost an organisation of trade and economic development - the political sphere came later and is missing to this point. even though major steps into that direction have been made with the lisbon treaty in 2009, it still says - "the states are the guardians of the treaties"
which means that the bigger players, as in bigger countries and their own selfish interests are not interested in a unified europe - yet.
and people aren't either. blaming nationalism as some do is not completely false, but does not comprehend the dimension of the problem. we don't have a european identity, that has to happen first.
I see it as a sign that you have to work towards building that identity and with it a major role in the world. and abandoning the euro completely and too abruptly, is the death of all the integration we achieved.
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On December 16 2014 21:24 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 16:18 RvB wrote:On December 14 2014 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:Was reading To our Friends (from the invisible comity, check it !) and found out that Elstat (responsible for production various statistics in Greece) falsified 2009's data on Greece deficit to make it worse than it was (higher than Ireland) in order to justify the (wrong and stupid) austerity policies. This has been done under pressure from the european union and eurostats... so Junker's warning is almost an insult to Greeks. ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece's statistics chief will testify next month in a criminal investigation into allegations that his office falsified the budget deficit to make the country's financial crisis look worse, court officials said Monday.
The head of the newly independent statistics service ELSTAT, Andreas Georgiou, denied any wrongdoing and has not been charged with any offence in the investigation, stemming from allegations made by a former ELSTAT board member.[...]
"The 2009 deficit was artificially inflated to show that the country had the biggest fiscal shortfall in all of Europe, even higher than Ireland's which was 14 percent," former ELSTAT board member Zoe Georganta was quoted as saying by the Eleftherotypia newspaper.
Georganta told Greek media the inclusion of a number of utilities under general government data inflated the deficit and that this was done under German pressure to justify harsh austerity measures. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/28/andreas-georgiou-greek-statistics-chief_n_1116732.htmlAnd by the way, islamophobia going strong in Germany. Pretty institutionalized movement... In Germany alone 81 attacks targeting mosques were carried out since 2012, but of course the 3 attacks on Synagogues in France, in 2013, are more concerning... There have been plenty of movements such as Stürzenberger's in Germany in recent years. They generally begin in response to the construction of a mosque: Reluctance turns into resistance, then hate and violence. Over the last two years, there have been arson attacks against Muslim prayer houses in Berlin, Hanau and Hannover. Politically Incorrect, the most prominent German-speaking anti-Islam website, has up to 120,000 visitors per day.
In addition to Die Freiheit, radical anti-Islamists have founded the political party Pro Deutschland ("Pro Germany") and the citizens' movement Pax Europa. They are currently attempting to gain influence over the euro-skeptic Alternative for Germany Party (AfD) -- the former federal chairman of Die Freiheit has called for his followers to support the AfD in this May's European elections.
According to a study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, 56 percent of Germans consider Islam to be an "archaic religion, incapable of fitting into modern life" and many believe religious freedom for Muslims should be "substantially restricted." http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/islamophobic-hate-groups-become-more-prominent-in-germany-a-956801.html I dont think Greece had any choice really it was either the austerity or bankruptcy. Even if inflated, which isn't proven, their structural deficit was really high. You are wrong and at this point you should know how wrong you are. Ireland had a higher deficit and refused austerity. Result : they are growing right now. Austerity was the worst decision possible, especially at this time, and anybody who say the opposite have no clue about economy. ![[image loading]](http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2034135!/image/image.png_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.png) ![[image loading]](http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20141122_FNC309.png) Austerity, coming from Germans through the european union, has been nothing less than a crime against Greece.
Ierland had it's own austerity programme. Youre niet even reading what I wrote anyway. For Greece is was either default or austerity.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21588110-government-end-economic-emergency-sight-eighth-austerity-budget
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On December 17 2014 05:27 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 21:24 WhiteDog wrote:On December 16 2014 16:18 RvB wrote:On December 14 2014 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:Was reading To our Friends (from the invisible comity, check it !) and found out that Elstat (responsible for production various statistics in Greece) falsified 2009's data on Greece deficit to make it worse than it was (higher than Ireland) in order to justify the (wrong and stupid) austerity policies. This has been done under pressure from the european union and eurostats... so Junker's warning is almost an insult to Greeks. ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece's statistics chief will testify next month in a criminal investigation into allegations that his office falsified the budget deficit to make the country's financial crisis look worse, court officials said Monday.
The head of the newly independent statistics service ELSTAT, Andreas Georgiou, denied any wrongdoing and has not been charged with any offence in the investigation, stemming from allegations made by a former ELSTAT board member.[...]
"The 2009 deficit was artificially inflated to show that the country had the biggest fiscal shortfall in all of Europe, even higher than Ireland's which was 14 percent," former ELSTAT board member Zoe Georganta was quoted as saying by the Eleftherotypia newspaper.
Georganta told Greek media the inclusion of a number of utilities under general government data inflated the deficit and that this was done under German pressure to justify harsh austerity measures. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/28/andreas-georgiou-greek-statistics-chief_n_1116732.htmlAnd by the way, islamophobia going strong in Germany. Pretty institutionalized movement... In Germany alone 81 attacks targeting mosques were carried out since 2012, but of course the 3 attacks on Synagogues in France, in 2013, are more concerning... There have been plenty of movements such as Stürzenberger's in Germany in recent years. They generally begin in response to the construction of a mosque: Reluctance turns into resistance, then hate and violence. Over the last two years, there have been arson attacks against Muslim prayer houses in Berlin, Hanau and Hannover. Politically Incorrect, the most prominent German-speaking anti-Islam website, has up to 120,000 visitors per day.
In addition to Die Freiheit, radical anti-Islamists have founded the political party Pro Deutschland ("Pro Germany") and the citizens' movement Pax Europa. They are currently attempting to gain influence over the euro-skeptic Alternative for Germany Party (AfD) -- the former federal chairman of Die Freiheit has called for his followers to support the AfD in this May's European elections.
According to a study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, 56 percent of Germans consider Islam to be an "archaic religion, incapable of fitting into modern life" and many believe religious freedom for Muslims should be "substantially restricted." http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/islamophobic-hate-groups-become-more-prominent-in-germany-a-956801.html I dont think Greece had any choice really it was either the austerity or bankruptcy. Even if inflated, which isn't proven, their structural deficit was really high. You are wrong and at this point you should know how wrong you are. Ireland had a higher deficit and refused austerity. Result : they are growing right now. Austerity was the worst decision possible, especially at this time, and anybody who say the opposite have no clue about economy. Austerity, coming from Germans through the european union, has been nothing less than a crime against Greece. Ierland had it's own austerity programme. Youre niet even reading what I wrote anyway. For Greece is was either default or austerity. http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21588110-government-end-economic-emergency-sight-eighth-austerity-budget
Again that's wrong : there could have been debt restructuring, solidarity from the european union (the totality of the greek debt was around 2% of the union's GDP) or monetization from the central bank.
As for austerity in Ireland, it was way less (freeze in wages but no decrease for exemple), and they voted against in 2014.
But I should have talked about Island and not Ireland, was a little distracted. Ireland is not a good exemple.
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On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote:
the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure
you reap what you sow.
everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making.
Greece wasn't the first or last country to break deficit rules or fudge the accounting to make things look nicer, nor was it the last.
As for 'you reap what you sow', well yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. Greeks borrowed heavily and didn't spend it wisely... of course good things don't come from that. However, it takes two parties to be involved here, and so those who lent Greeks money for those frivolous things should be reaping what they sowed as well. And that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least it is lopsided. At a national level, Germans haven't suffered from making shoddy loans to the same extent that Greeks (or Spaniards or whoever) have suffered from taking the loans. At a private level, banks with shoddy finances were protected for far too long from having to recapitalize.
One other thing to remember is that prior to the crisis Greece was doing quite well. On the inside, people's incomes were going up and so there was optimism that debts could be repaid easily in Greece's brighter future. On the outside, lenders in Germany and other places saw Greece as a place to earn a higher return than they could get in their own domestic economies, and so lent heavily there. And that trend is still on-going. Germans are still lending heavily to others, only now they're going beyond the Eurozone.
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On December 17 2014 06:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote:
the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure
you reap what you sow.
everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. Greece wasn't the first or last country to break deficit rules or fudge the accounting to make things look nicer, nor was it the last. As for 'you reap what you sow', well yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. Greeks borrowed heavily and didn't spend it wisely... of course good things don't come from that. However, it takes two parties to be involved here, and so those who lent Greeks money for those frivolous things should be reaping what they sowed as well. A nd that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least it is lopsided. Actually I beleive the banks which lent the money to the Greek Government had to write off billions of dollars.
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On December 17 2014 01:50 WhiteDog wrote:
I agree, Germany and France are way more corrupt than Greece. Look what they did in their history.
That the state is weak in Greece (like in southern Italy), for obvious reasons, is another topic entirely. I don't see how a high deficit and a high debt / GDP ratio is a crime against humanity that needs punishment. All in all it's only money. Again the european community prove how beautiful a "community" it is.
And do you think austerity can fix the weakness of Greek state ? Everything that has been done just made everything worse.
Greece is definitely more corrupt than Germany, so is Czech Republic more corrupt than Sweden. There are real differences in corruption that make a difference in a quality of life that countries achieve. And whether austerity was or wasn't a good idea (most likely was not) has nothing to do with that. Unlike deficits and debt, corruption levels actually seem to correlate with quality of life indicators.
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On December 17 2014 07:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 06:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote:
the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure
you reap what you sow.
everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. Greece wasn't the first or last country to break deficit rules or fudge the accounting to make things look nicer, nor was it the last. As for 'you reap what you sow', well yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. Greeks borrowed heavily and didn't spend it wisely... of course good things don't come from that. However, it takes two parties to be involved here, and so those who lent Greeks money for those frivolous things should be reaping what they sowed as well. A nd that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least it is lopsided. Actually I beleive the banks which lent the money to the Greek Government had to write off billions of dollars.
True, but the pain has been very lopsided. Greece went from a rising economy into a depression while Germany went from 'the sick man of Europe' to an economic superstar. There's more to that story than just the debt crisis, but the reversal in fortunes is amazing.
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Germanies left party just betrayed their own roots/voterbase and signed policies that the right parties never could have dreamed off getting thru. It was basically treason.
The german rent system is basically a giant scam, real wages are stagnating/declining and there now is something you could call a lower class of citizens, meanwhile infrastructure Investments are not made... Thanks to all this Germany is outcompeting the other Eurozone countries so it looks actually good...
Yeah, Germany so nice!
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yeah... for a lot of Americans economic "progress" is mainly a numbers game apparently.
the recovery in the US is also bought by economic suffering and less opportunity for the masses. what good is a job if you need 2 of them to keep afloat?
or lose all your social security/safety benefits to save a few banks who fucked up? we don't have to wonder why people vote for extreme parties and tend to favor extreme movements within parties.
not. one. bit.
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On December 17 2014 18:53 Doublemint wrote:
yeah... for a lot of Americans economic "progress" is mainly a numbers game apparently.
the recovery in the US is also bought by economic suffering and less opportunity for the masses. what good is a job if you need 2 of them to keep afloat?
or lose all your social security/safety benefits to save a few banks who fucked up? we don't have to wonder why people vote for extreme parties and tend to favor extreme movements within parties.
not. one. bit.
+1, mate, +1.
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On December 17 2014 18:37 Velr wrote:
Germanies left party just betrayed their own roots/voterbase and signed policies that the right parties never could have dreamed off getting thru. It was basically treason.
The german rent system is basically a giant scam, real wages are stagnating/declining and there now is something you could call a lower class of citizens, meanwhile infrastructure Investments are not made... Thanks to all this Germany is outcompeting the other Eurozone countries so it looks actually good...
Yeah, Germany so nice!
well our rent system and healthcare would be fine if everyone actually paid into it but as long as Merkel or the SPD have any power that's never gonna happen -_-
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On December 17 2014 09:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 07:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On December 17 2014 06:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote:
the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure
you reap what you sow.
everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. Greece wasn't the first or last country to break deficit rules or fudge the accounting to make things look nicer, nor was it the last. As for 'you reap what you sow', well yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. Greeks borrowed heavily and didn't spend it wisely... of course good things don't come from that. However, it takes two parties to be involved here, and so those who lent Greeks money for those frivolous things should be reaping what they sowed as well. A nd that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least it is lopsided. Actually I beleive the banks which lent the money to the Greek Government had to write off billions of dollars. True, but the pain has been very lopsided. Greece went from a rising economy into a depression while Germany went from 'the sick man of Europe' to an economic superstar. There's more to that story than just the debt crisis, but the reversal in fortunes is amazing.
Eh? Greece wasn't a rising economy, it just hid how badly it was doing by taking debts and hid it's decifits with dodgy accounting until it couldn't be hidden any longer.
Germany had their roots on being an economic superstar simply because they themselves underwent years of reform with a political and popular will, far greater than just about any other democratic country.
Who lent the Greeks money? It wasn't the German government. It were banks. And those banks that lent the Greek government money lost money. Who gained money? The Greek government in the short term. Who gained out of all this? The wealthy tax avoiders in Greece. The nepostic, well paid, public sector with comfortable jobs with comfortable pensions. The politicians. Those were the ones who gained.
Who suffered? The banks who lent the money in the first place, and everybody else in Greece. Oh and everybody else whose taxpayers money had to who bailed out the Greeks. That'll be the German taxpayers then. So as you can see, your strange story that the Germans somehow engineered the Greek disaster for their own benefit is nothing of the sort.
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On December 17 2014 22:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 09:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 17 2014 07:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On December 17 2014 06:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote:
the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure
you reap what you sow.
everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. Greece wasn't the first or last country to break deficit rules or fudge the accounting to make things look nicer, nor was it the last. As for 'you reap what you sow', well yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. Greeks borrowed heavily and didn't spend it wisely... of course good things don't come from that. However, it takes two parties to be involved here, and so those who lent Greeks money for those frivolous things should be reaping what they sowed as well. A nd that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least it is lopsided. Actually I beleive the banks which lent the money to the Greek Government had to write off billions of dollars. True, but the pain has been very lopsided. Greece went from a rising economy into a depression while Germany went from 'the sick man of Europe' to an economic superstar. There's more to that story than just the debt crisis, but the reversal in fortunes is amazing. Eh? Greece wasn't a rising economy, it just hid how badly it was doing by taking debts and hid it's decifits with dodgy accounting until it couldn't be hidden any longer. Germany had their roots on being an economic superstar simply because they themselves underwent years of reform with a political and popular will, far greater than just about any other democratic country. Who lent the Greeks money? It wasn't the German government. It were banks. And those banks that lent the Greek government money lost money. Who gained money? The Greek government in the short term. Who gained out of all this? The wealthy tax avoiders in Greece. The nepostic, well paid, public sector with comfortable jobs with comfortable pensions. The politicians. Those were the ones who gained. Who suffered? The banks who lent the money in the first place, and everybody else in Greece. Oh and everybody else whose taxpayers money had to who bailed out the Greeks. That'll be the German taxpayers then. So as you can see, your strange story that the Germans somehow engineered the Greek disaster for their own benefit is nothing of the sort.
"a political and popular will, far greater than just about any other democratic country".
Nice bullshit. The european union, and France especially, permitted German's reform. Nothing more.
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You may quote me: Political union must come before monetary union.
Case closed. Without a political union to tackle any conceivable problems of the future you get problems like this.
Anyway, europe as a whole is being led by neo-liberal Ayn rand crazed fascists. So austerity and less social security is what we voted for.. apparently there are too many people with a lot of money (they all voted for these neo lib parties) perhaps a bit of austerity will change the masses' minds in the next 3-5 years.
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On December 17 2014 22:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 22:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On December 17 2014 09:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 17 2014 07:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On December 17 2014 06:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote:
the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure
you reap what you sow.
everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. Greece wasn't the first or last country to break deficit rules or fudge the accounting to make things look nicer, nor was it the last. As for 'you reap what you sow', well yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. Greeks borrowed heavily and didn't spend it wisely... of course good things don't come from that. However, it takes two parties to be involved here, and so those who lent Greeks money for those frivolous things should be reaping what they sowed as well. A nd that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least it is lopsided. Actually I beleive the banks which lent the money to the Greek Government had to write off billions of dollars. True, but the pain has been very lopsided. Greece went from a rising economy into a depression while Germany went from 'the sick man of Europe' to an economic superstar. There's more to that story than just the debt crisis, but the reversal in fortunes is amazing. Eh? Greece wasn't a rising economy, it just hid how badly it was doing by taking debts and hid it's decifits with dodgy accounting until it couldn't be hidden any longer. Germany had their roots on being an economic superstar simply because they themselves underwent years of reform with a political and popular will, far greater than just about any other democratic country. Who lent the Greeks money? It wasn't the German government. It were banks. And those banks that lent the Greek government money lost money. Who gained money? The Greek government in the short term. Who gained out of all this? The wealthy tax avoiders in Greece. The nepostic, well paid, public sector with comfortable jobs with comfortable pensions. The politicians. Those were the ones who gained. Who suffered? The banks who lent the money in the first place, and everybody else in Greece. Oh and everybody else whose taxpayers money had to who bailed out the Greeks. That'll be the German taxpayers then. So as you can see, your strange story that the Germans somehow engineered the Greek disaster for their own benefit is nothing of the sort. "a political and popular will, far greater than just about any other democratic country". Nice bullshit. The european union, and France especially, permitted German's reform. Nothing more.
France controls Germany's reform of their own labour markets and monetary management several years before the Euro crisis? Not sure if we are on the same page here.
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You're right, you aren't on the same page, control=/=permitted
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On December 17 2014 22:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 09:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 17 2014 07:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On December 17 2014 06:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 16 2014 23:44 Skilledblob wrote:
the greek government lied when it applied for the Eurozone, the greek government failed to build a proper tax infrastructure
you reap what you sow.
everyone was hit by the global recession a couple years back, but the magnitude by which it affected Greece was by a large part their own making. Greece wasn't the first or last country to break deficit rules or fudge the accounting to make things look nicer, nor was it the last. As for 'you reap what you sow', well yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. Greeks borrowed heavily and didn't spend it wisely... of course good things don't come from that. However, it takes two parties to be involved here, and so those who lent Greeks money for those frivolous things should be reaping what they sowed as well. A nd that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least it is lopsided. Actually I beleive the banks which lent the money to the Greek Government had to write off billions of dollars. True, but the pain has been very lopsided. Greece went from a rising economy into a depression while Germany went from 'the sick man of Europe' to an economic superstar. There's more to that story than just the debt crisis, but the reversal in fortunes is amazing. Eh? Greece wasn't a rising economy, it just hid how badly it was doing by taking debts and hid it's decifits with dodgy accounting until it couldn't be hidden any longer. Germany had their roots on being an economic superstar simply because they themselves underwent years of reform with a political and popular will, far greater than just about any other democratic country. Who lent the Greeks money? It wasn't the German government. It were banks. And those banks that lent the Greek government money lost money. Who gained money? The Greek government in the short term. Who gained out of all this? The wealthy tax avoiders in Greece. The nepostic, well paid, public sector with comfortable jobs with comfortable pensions. The politicians. Those were the ones who gained. Who suffered? The banks who lent the money in the first place, and everybody else in Greece. Oh and everybody else whose taxpayers money had to who bailed out the Greeks. That'll be the German taxpayers then. So as you can see, your strange story that the Germans somehow engineered the Greek disaster for their own benefit is nothing of the sort.
The banks.... suffered? The main point of all those loans was exactly to take off the hands of (mostly german and french) banks greek debt through the so-called bailout packs and the debt reconstruction in no way reflects the real financial damages that banks should have taken with a one sided default.
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EPT
