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On December 11 2014 08:28 WhiteDog wrote:
My point is, the core problem in France is certainly not antisemitism.
Well I don't know what qualifies as a "core problem" and what doesn't, but a rise of anti-Semitism has always been an indicator that something on the European continent is not going very well. I don't think comparing crime numbers makes a lot of sense because obviously when it comes to minorities the amount of incidents will be smaller. Even if the amount of incidents against Jews doesn't seem so big I feel like the general atmosphere has changed quite a lot, which the huge emigration numbers of Jews seem to support.
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On December 11 2014 08:39 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2014 08:28 WhiteDog wrote:
My point is, the core problem in France is certainly not antisemitism.
Well I don't know what qualifies as a "core problem" and what doesn't, but a rise of anti-Semitism has always been an indicator that something on the European continent is not going very well. I don't think comparing crime numbers makes a lot of sense because obviously when it comes to minorities the amount of incidents will be smaller. Even if the amount of incidents against Jews doesn't seem so big I feel like the general atmosphere has changed quite a lot, which the huge emigration numbers of Jews seem to support.
Because the jewish political group (such as the CRIF) are using those event to assure their political power ? You think it's safer in Israel than in France ?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
not sure where the confidence of france's goodness towards jews comes from.
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On December 11 2014 10:53 oneofthem wrote:
not sure where the confidence of france's goodness towards jews comes from.
Who said anything about goodness ?
And why France should be "good" with jews ?
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I don't get why Jews are so often brought up?
In my everyday live they are like non existant (well, maybe some guys i work with are jewish and I don't know)... Who the fuck cares if someone is jewish or not?
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That is something i have been wondering too. Religion is pretty much a non-thing in my social circles, if people are religious they are religious and don't really talk about it, and if people are not religious they are not religious and don't talk about it either. Noone really thinks that religion is a defining part of his identity.
That makes it really hard to understand antisemitism, especially compared to something like racism. I don't agree with racists, but at least i understand where they are coming from "That guy looks different, that is scary". Jews look the same, talk in the same way, and act the same as christians or atheists around here.
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i think they were just talking about discrimination(special treatment) and the perception that one has to be extra "good" with jews for whatever reason.
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As far as I know, the subject is also a non factor in France. Israel/Palestinia is a conversation topic, but not the religion or the local community. For this thread, december is a month of "annual statistics" and among them in France are the statistics published for the number of antisemitic actions (down ~30% in 2014 at ~450) and the number of french jews emigrating to Israel (up ~50% at ~7000).
There were a few press articles last week comenting on the 7000 figure, which I guess fuels forum posts.
(jewish community in France is around 700k in a 70M country)
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On December 11 2014 08:39 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2014 08:28 WhiteDog wrote:
My point is, the core problem in France is certainly not antisemitism.
Well I don't know what qualifies as a "core problem" and what doesn't, but a rise of anti-Semitism has always been an indicator that something on the European continent is not going very well. I don't think comparing crime numbers makes a lot of sense because obviously when it comes to minorities the amount of incidents will be smaller. Even if the amount of incidents against Jews doesn't seem so big I feel like the general atmosphere has changed quite a lot, which the huge emigration numbers of Jews seem to support.
There's no "rise of antisemitism" in Europe. Those statistics are most likely wrongly labeled, and actually represent the growing opposition to the Israeli terror machine that's been ramped up in the past 24 months and it's EU support. Actual antisemitism has different manifestations and causes.
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On December 11 2014 18:03 Simberto wrote:
That is something i have been wondering too. Religion is pretty much a non-thing in my social circles, if people are religious they are religious and don't really talk about it, and if people are not religious they are not religious and don't talk about it either. Noone really thinks that religion is a defining part of his identity.
That makes it really hard to understand antisemitism, especially compared to something like racism. I don't agree with racists, but at least i understand where they are coming from "That guy looks different, that is scary". Jews look the same, talk in the same way, and act the same as christians or atheists around here.
i think it has more to do with its historical roots than anything else. back when religion was a defining of everyones identity jewish stand out at those scary, strange people for hundreds of years. those years are pretty hard to overcome even if the "reason" isnt there any longer.
i dont think that there is a notable amount of people who seriously believe that the jewish are a "threat" or whatnot that leads to their antisemitism. i think the number one reason for antisemitsm today is "because it was always there".
for racism or the anti islam guys, however, i do think that people actually believe that other "races" are inferior or foreign religions are a threat to society.
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http://euobserver.com/political/126880
EU commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker has warned Greece against electing "extreme forces" into power and said he would prefer "known faces" - so far the strongest intervention of the EU top brass in the Greek campaign.
"I think that the Greeks - who have a very difficult life - know very well what a wrong election result would mean for Greece and the eurozone," Juncker said during an Austrian public tv debate with EUobserver and several other Brussels-based journalists.
He steered clear of explicit political advice ahead of presidential elections in Greece next week but said: "I wouldn't like extreme forces to come to power."
The presidential elections - to be held in the Greek parliament on 17 December - could trigger early parliamentary elections, if there are three failed attempts to elect a president.
The far-left Syriza, which wants Greece's debt erased and an end to austerity measures, is topping the polls. Markets are already jittery at the prospect of Syriza leader Alexis Tsipras coming to power.
Asked if Syriza and Tsipras qualify as "extreme forces", Juncker replied: "I would like Greece to be ruled by people who have an eye and a heart for the many little people in Greece and who also understand the necessity of European processes."
Juncker on LuxLeaks
He conceded that his reputation has been dented by the LuxLeaks scandal (revealing tax avoidance schemes for multinationals in Luxembourg while he was PM), but insisted that he did nothing illegal at the time.
"I had contact with those firms [Skype, Amazon] when we tried to diversify the structure of Luxembourg's economy. But I never got involved in the tax rulings, because that is not allowed for a Luxembourg finance minister, the law prohibits that he uses his influence on specific tax files," he said.
Asked what he talked to Amazon about, if not about a favourable tax regime, he said: "We spoke about infrastructure, pipelines, what kind of qualified staff we can provide, how we can train them. But we didn't talk about the precise tax questions, because it is not something for the government, it is for the tax administration."
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Was reading To our Friends (from the invisible comity, check it !) and found out that Elstat (responsible for production various statistics in Greece) falsified 2009's data on Greece deficit to make it worse than it was (higher than Ireland) in order to justify the (wrong and stupid) austerity policies. This has been done under pressure from the european union and eurostats... so Junker's warning is almost an insult to Greeks.
ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece's statistics chief will testify next month in a criminal investigation into allegations that his office falsified the budget deficit to make the country's financial crisis look worse, court officials said Monday.
The head of the newly independent statistics service ELSTAT, Andreas Georgiou, denied any wrongdoing and has not been charged with any offence in the investigation, stemming from allegations made by a former ELSTAT board member.[...]
"The 2009 deficit was artificially inflated to show that the country had the biggest fiscal shortfall in all of Europe, even higher than Ireland's which was 14 percent," former ELSTAT board member Zoe Georganta was quoted as saying by the Eleftherotypia newspaper.
Georganta told Greek media the inclusion of a number of utilities under general government data inflated the deficit and that this was done under German pressure to justify harsh austerity measures.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/28/andreas-georgiou-greek-statistics-chief_n_1116732.html
And by the way, islamophobia going strong in Germany. Pretty institutionalized movement... In Germany alone 81 attacks targeting mosques were carried out since 2012, but of course the 3 attacks on Synagogues in France, in 2013, are more concerning...
There have been plenty of movements such as Stürzenberger's in Germany in recent years. They generally begin in response to the construction of a mosque: Reluctance turns into resistance, then hate and violence. Over the last two years, there have been arson attacks against Muslim prayer houses in Berlin, Hanau and Hannover. Politically Incorrect, the most prominent German-speaking anti-Islam website, has up to 120,000 visitors per day.
In addition to Die Freiheit, radical anti-Islamists have founded the political party Pro Deutschland ("Pro Germany") and the citizens' movement Pax Europa. They are currently attempting to gain influence over the euro-skeptic Alternative for Germany Party (AfD) -- the former federal chairman of Die Freiheit has called for his followers to support the AfD in this May's European elections.
According to a study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, 56 percent of Germans consider Islam to be an "archaic religion, incapable of fitting into modern life" and many believe religious freedom for Muslims should be "substantially restricted."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/islamophobic-hate-groups-become-more-prominent-in-germany-a-956801.html
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
a while back the FT posted geithner's notes on what happened in the early stages of the eurozone crisis. quite clearly the germans were out for blood over greece etc, making punitive moves without the means of containing the response
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Russia looking pretty borked these days:
Russia raises key rate to 17%, effective Tuesday
Russia on Monday announced that it would hike its key interest rate to 17 percent, effective Tuesday, citing rising devaluation and inflation risks.
The bank had raised the rate by 100 basis points to 10.5 percent last week in an effort to stem a run on its currency.
Earlier on Monday, the Russian ruble saw its biggest drop since 1998, but strengthened after the decision. It was last trading at 62.50 versus 65.50 before the announcement.
Source
Can't get a nice price for energy these days, so no one wants the ruble.
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On December 14 2014 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:Was reading To our Friends (from the invisible comity, check it !) and found out that Elstat (responsible for production various statistics in Greece) falsified 2009's data on Greece deficit to make it worse than it was (higher than Ireland) in order to justify the (wrong and stupid) austerity policies. This has been done under pressure from the european union and eurostats... so Junker's warning is almost an insult to Greeks. Show nested quote +ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece's statistics chief will testify next month in a criminal investigation into allegations that his office falsified the budget deficit to make the country's financial crisis look worse, court officials said Monday.
The head of the newly independent statistics service ELSTAT, Andreas Georgiou, denied any wrongdoing and has not been charged with any offence in the investigation, stemming from allegations made by a former ELSTAT board member.[...]
"The 2009 deficit was artificially inflated to show that the country had the biggest fiscal shortfall in all of Europe, even higher than Ireland's which was 14 percent," former ELSTAT board member Zoe Georganta was quoted as saying by the Eleftherotypia newspaper.
Georganta told Greek media the inclusion of a number of utilities under general government data inflated the deficit and that this was done under German pressure to justify harsh austerity measures. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/28/andreas-georgiou-greek-statistics-chief_n_1116732.htmlAnd by the way, islamophobia going strong in Germany. Pretty institutionalized movement... In Germany alone 81 attacks targeting mosques were carried out since 2012, but of course the 3 attacks on Synagogues in France, in 2013, are more concerning... Show nested quote +There have been plenty of movements such as Stürzenberger's in Germany in recent years. They generally begin in response to the construction of a mosque: Reluctance turns into resistance, then hate and violence. Over the last two years, there have been arson attacks against Muslim prayer houses in Berlin, Hanau and Hannover. Politically Incorrect, the most prominent German-speaking anti-Islam website, has up to 120,000 visitors per day.
In addition to Die Freiheit, radical anti-Islamists have founded the political party Pro Deutschland ("Pro Germany") and the citizens' movement Pax Europa. They are currently attempting to gain influence over the euro-skeptic Alternative for Germany Party (AfD) -- the former federal chairman of Die Freiheit has called for his followers to support the AfD in this May's European elections.
According to a study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, 56 percent of Germans consider Islam to be an "archaic religion, incapable of fitting into modern life" and many believe religious freedom for Muslims should be "substantially restricted." http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/islamophobic-hate-groups-become-more-prominent-in-germany-a-956801.html
I dont think Greece had any choice really it was either the austerity or bankruptcy. Even if inflated, which isn't proven, their structural deficit was really high.
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On December 16 2014 16:18 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:Was reading To our Friends (from the invisible comity, check it !) and found out that Elstat (responsible for production various statistics in Greece) falsified 2009's data on Greece deficit to make it worse than it was (higher than Ireland) in order to justify the (wrong and stupid) austerity policies. This has been done under pressure from the european union and eurostats... so Junker's warning is almost an insult to Greeks. ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece's statistics chief will testify next month in a criminal investigation into allegations that his office falsified the budget deficit to make the country's financial crisis look worse, court officials said Monday.
The head of the newly independent statistics service ELSTAT, Andreas Georgiou, denied any wrongdoing and has not been charged with any offence in the investigation, stemming from allegations made by a former ELSTAT board member.[...]
"The 2009 deficit was artificially inflated to show that the country had the biggest fiscal shortfall in all of Europe, even higher than Ireland's which was 14 percent," former ELSTAT board member Zoe Georganta was quoted as saying by the Eleftherotypia newspaper.
Georganta told Greek media the inclusion of a number of utilities under general government data inflated the deficit and that this was done under German pressure to justify harsh austerity measures. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/28/andreas-georgiou-greek-statistics-chief_n_1116732.htmlAnd by the way, islamophobia going strong in Germany. Pretty institutionalized movement... In Germany alone 81 attacks targeting mosques were carried out since 2012, but of course the 3 attacks on Synagogues in France, in 2013, are more concerning... There have been plenty of movements such as Stürzenberger's in Germany in recent years. They generally begin in response to the construction of a mosque: Reluctance turns into resistance, then hate and violence. Over the last two years, there have been arson attacks against Muslim prayer houses in Berlin, Hanau and Hannover. Politically Incorrect, the most prominent German-speaking anti-Islam website, has up to 120,000 visitors per day.
In addition to Die Freiheit, radical anti-Islamists have founded the political party Pro Deutschland ("Pro Germany") and the citizens' movement Pax Europa. They are currently attempting to gain influence over the euro-skeptic Alternative for Germany Party (AfD) -- the former federal chairman of Die Freiheit has called for his followers to support the AfD in this May's European elections.
According to a study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, 56 percent of Germans consider Islam to be an "archaic religion, incapable of fitting into modern life" and many believe religious freedom for Muslims should be "substantially restricted." http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/islamophobic-hate-groups-become-more-prominent-in-germany-a-956801.html I dont think Greece had any choice really it was either the austerity or bankruptcy. Even if inflated, which isn't proven, their structural deficit was really high.
You are wrong and at this point you should know how wrong you are. Ireland had a higher deficit and refused austerity. Result : they are growing right now. Austerity was the worst decision possible, especially at this time, and anybody who say the opposite have no clue about economy.
![[image loading]](http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2034135!/image/image.png_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.png)
![[image loading]](http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20141122_FNC309.png)
Austerity, coming from Germans through the european union, has been nothing less than a crime against Greece.
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well according to that chart greece economy is starting to grow again if I understand it correctly.
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if you are down there is only one way to.
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That is true, but greece is nowhere near the bottom yet. You could always become Somalia. Down is always relative, and you can pretty much always go lower.
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EPT
