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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 238

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
August 10 2015 05:03 GMT
#4741
Aren't governments just market actors?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
August 10 2015 05:11 GMT
#4742
On August 10 2015 14:03 IgnE wrote:
Aren't governments just market actors?


Lol?

If you modeled governments into a market, you would model them as a single choice, made on a single day, that has a disproportionate impact on the market.

Basically, its a fat guy fasting once a year determining his weight.
Freeeeeeedom
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
August 10 2015 05:30 GMT
#4743
And?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
August 10 2015 06:54 GMT
#4744
You guys might be able to solve the liquidity by forming an activist investor syndicate - Citizens Distrustful of Elon Musk's Antics. Hopefully you'd be able to convince a large group of investors to join with your arguments.

Tesla is not being priced the same way other car companies are. It's multiples are those of a tech company, rather than a car company. I think that's correct. Investors look at the car industry and in 10 years they see the following:
- Battery costs will come down;
- Charging of batteries will become much faster either through super-charging or induction;
- Vehicles will communicate with each other in a mesh network;
- Vehicles will become autonomous;
- Electric is the most likely winner.

They see a car industry that will be turned on its head. They look at traditional car companies - which are very large organizations - and they look at Tesla - which in very few years has been able to create what many call the best car in the market - and they feel that Tesla is likely to be the best suited for that new future. They don't see the established companies being able to innovate and launch new tech as Tesla is, because Tesla is a tech company.

Investors are not being short sighted or whimsical about Tesla's coolness. They're looking at a 50 year horizon and making an educated guess over who will be most adapted to the new realities. I would make the same bet.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15362 Posts
August 10 2015 07:36 GMT
#4745
Alright people, back on topic please.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6266 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-10 08:58:27
August 10 2015 08:35 GMT
#4746
Greece hopes to conclude negotiations with international creditors by early Tuesday at the latest, a Greek official said as talks continued in Athens on a new multi-billion euro bailout designed to keep the country from financial ruin.

Greece's finance and economy ministers were locked in negotiations with representatives of creditors on Sunday, which stretched until the early hours of Monday. Greek officials have previously said they expect the bailout accord to go to the country's parliament for approval by Aug. 18.

"Efforts are being made to conclude the negotiations, the horizon is by Monday night or early Tuesday," said a Greek official who declined to be named.

"When the new bailout comes to parliament for a vote it will be one bill with two articles - one article will be the loan agreement and the MoU (memorandum of understanding) and the second article will be the prior actions," the official said, referring to measures Greece needs to take for the bailout accord to take effect.

A second official said: "From 12 midnight the two sides started the final stretch, ‎discussing the final stretch - combing through the final text, sentence by sentence, word by word."
uk.reuters.com
The negotiations began on July 20. A senior Greek finance official told Reuters the aim was for euro zone finance ministers to review the accord on Friday, Aug. 14.

Athens is negotiating with European Union institutions and the International Monetary Fund for up to 86 billion euros (£60.89 billion) in fresh loans to stave off economic collapse and stay in the euro zone.

The bailout must be in place by Aug. 20, when Greece has a repayment falling due to the European Central Bank.

One senior EU official said there had been "outstanding cooperation" from the Greek side, which was keen to have a deal in place the soonest possible.

But the official said sticking points for some member states was still the size of the overall bailout, which some wanted reduced from the up to 86 billion agreed at the euro summit last month because of the political sensitivity.

For the Greek side, Greek sources said a key source of concern was how to deal with a mountain of non-performing loans in the banking sector, a factor likely to weigh on a potential recapitalisation bill for the banks.

The Greek side wants to set up a 'bad bank' to handle this, while creditors want non performing loans bundled and sold to distressed asset funds. Non performing loans represented about 35 percent of overall loan portfolios in the first quarter of 2015, a level likely to increase during recent weeks from the imposition of capital controls.

The size of the first tranche, which is likely to be at least 20 billion euros, was also a source of some concern among lenders.

Of that figure, Greece needs a 10 billion euro buffer for bank recapitalisation, 7 billion to reimburse the bridge loan for July and more than 3 billion to pay the ECB in August.

"Until the MoU is on the table and signed, we are still cautious," the EU official said.


uk.reuters.com

Mario Draghi could be forgiven for lingering a little longer on the sun lounger this August.

For the first summer since he took office as president of the European Central Bank, the region’s four biggest economies are posting growth, spurred by a weaker euro and lower oil prices that are boosting consumer spending. Fears about deflation have abated, and another year of ECB extraordinary stimulus means economic tailwinds are likely to persist.

Reports on Friday will probably show output in the 19-nation bloc expanded for a ninth quarter, with Germany, France, Italy and Spain all growing. This relatively smooth sailing stands in contrast to the summer of 2012, when Draghi said he’d do “whatever it takes” to keep the union together. A year later, his home country Italy lumbered on in its longest recession since World War II, while August 2014 marked Draghi’s shift toward quantitative easing in Jackson Hole.

“It fits in to the general picture of a gradual recovery taking shape,” said Anatoli Annenkov, a senior economist at Societe Generale in London. “Certainly for the ECB this is probably one of the first summers where they are not so actively engaged.”

Euro-area gross domestic product expanded 0.4 percent in the three months through June from the previous quarter, according to the median forecast of economists in a Bloomberg survey. That would match the pace of the first quarter.

www.bloomberg.com
Evil_Sheep
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada902 Posts
August 11 2015 03:18 GMT
#4747
It's not all bad news for Germans: a new German study estimates they saved €100bn in interest payments as a result of the Greek crisis. Who knows, maybe Germany will possibly break even at the end of all this.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
August 11 2015 04:25 GMT
#4748
Tangential, but potentially important to this thread:

{quote] Currencies in Asia tumbled Tuesday and stocks in China fluctuated after China's central bank devalued its tightly controlled currency.

The central bank's move weakened the yuan 1.6% against the U.S. dollar Tuesday. The dollar rose to as high as 6.3299 Chinese yuan from its close 6.2136 late Monday. It is currently at 6.3010.[/quote]

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/currencies-in-asia-tumble-on-devaluation-of-chinese-yuan-20150810-01317#ixzz3iTeP12Ve
Freeeeeeedom
Evil_Sheep
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada902 Posts
August 11 2015 07:06 GMT
#4749
Breaking news: 3rd bailout agreed. The devil is in the details...
Adapted from an earlier baseline scenario, the targets foresee a primary budget deficit of 0.25% of GDP in 2015, a 0.5% surplus from 2016, 1.75% in 2017, and 3.5% in 2018

Preliminary indications are austerity remains in force and the status quo lies unchanged.
Taf the Ghost
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11751 Posts
August 11 2015 07:24 GMT
#4750
So it's another 86 Billion Euros that should cover until the middle of 2016. We'll be back doing all of this by 2017, at the latest.

And that's under the assumption the Greek political realm doesn't get progressively worse. And that China doesn't drag the rest of the world down.

Which just means that, pretty much, it's another huge amount of money down the drain. Remember when this was a 110 Billion Euro problem to begin with?
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15362 Posts
August 11 2015 07:26 GMT
#4751
Adapted from an earlier baseline scenario, the targets foresee a primary budget deficit of 0.25% of GDP in 2015, a 0.5% surplus from 2016, 1.75% in 2017, and 3.5% in 2018

This is complete insanity. I have to say I admire politicians to be able to announce shit like this with a straight face.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Evil_Sheep
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada902 Posts
August 11 2015 07:41 GMT
#4752
On August 11 2015 16:26 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
Adapted from an earlier baseline scenario, the targets foresee a primary budget deficit of 0.25% of GDP in 2015, a 0.5% surplus from 2016, 1.75% in 2017, and 3.5% in 2018

This is complete insanity. I have to say I admire politicians to be able to announce shit like this with a straight face.

Well as I said before Greece can promise a 10% budget surplus, these numbers are meaningless if they can't (and won't) deliver.

I know they say history repeats itself but 3 times in 5 years, it's really too much.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6266 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 09:25:15
August 11 2015 08:26 GMT
#4753
Other key dates

August:
ECB stress tests of Greek banks begin; asset quality review to be completed by month-end.
Aug. 12: Merkel returns from 3-week vacation to host cabinet meeting, providing forum for progress on Greece to be discussed.
Aug. 12: Greece to auction 875 million euros in 13-week T-bills.
Aug. 14: Greece needs to refinance 1.4 billion euros in T-bills.
Greek government aims to submit bailout bill to parliament.
Also possible date for Eurogroup conference call on Greece if Memorandum of Understanding has been agreed.
Aug. 17 or 18: Probable date for special session of Bundestag to vote on Greek bailout.
Aug. 18-19: Greek parliament vote on bailout agreement expected.
Aug. 20: Greece needs to repay ECB 3.2 billion euros in bond redemptions; creditors may need to provide another bridge loan, depending on progress in negotiations.
Would be very surprising if program agreed in time for parliamentary ratifications and disbursement of funds to meet Aug. 20 deadline, JPMorgan economist Malcolm Barr says.
After this point, ECB’s decisions on its Emergency Liquidity Assistance program could become controversial again if likelihood of deal in doubt.

September:
Greece’s ruling Syriza party set to hold emergency congress as Prime Minister Tsipras tries to quell internal opposition; party split may force early snap elections.

October:
ECB stress tests of Greek banks to assess recapitalization due to be completed.
Royal Bank of Scotland strategist Alberto Gallo estimates 25 billion euros of European Stability Mechanism funds planned should be enough to recapitalize the four Greek banks; warns any delay in negotiations also leads to delay in recapitalization process.
First review of Greek bailout deal to assess adherence to terms.

www.bloomberg.com

Greece and international lenders are rushing to put the final touches on a multi-billion euro bailout deal to keep the nation in the euro zone and prevent a financial meltdown.

Here are some of the details of what Greece is required to do for up to 86 billion euros in fresh aid.

"PRIOR ACTIONS"

Greek media reported on Monday that some of the "prior actions", or measures required before bailout aid is disbursed, now under discussion include:

- scrapping tax breaks for farmers who now receive subsidised fuel

- tighter regulations on a repayment system in instalments for individuals owing back taxes to the state

- a gradual increase in a "prepaid" income tax mechanism that asks taxpayers ranging from the self-employed to small businesses to pay upfront on forecast income

- increase in a 'solidarity tax' paid by earners in the 50,000-100,000 euro annual bracket to 6 percent from 4 percent.

PASSED

Greece passed a raft of prior actions in July including:

- simplifying VAT rates and applying tax more widely

- cutting back on pensions and making the national statistics agency independent.

- measures to overhaul its civil justice system- adopting EU bank resolution and bail-in rules, applicable from Jan. 1 2016.

TO COME

Greece's bailout agreement is also expected to set a clear timetable for following measures:

- ambitious pension reform; product market reform including Sunday trading, pharmacy ownership, milk and bakeries;

privatise electricity transmission network; review collective bargaining, industrial action and collective dismissals; strengthen financial sector, including action on non-performing loans and eliminate political interference.

Greeks will also have take the following actions:

- privatisations - involving transfer of assets to an independent sovereign wealth fund in Greece designed to raise 50 billion euros, three-quarters of which would be used to recapitalise banks and to decrease debt

- cut costs of public administration and reduce political influence over it.

uk.reuters.com
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 15:26:43
August 11 2015 13:03 GMT
#4754
Currently reading varoufakis' book on the global minotaur. A nice read altho most of it is well known.
The funniest part is how the US basically created the Japan and German economic "miracle" by giving nothing less than 2% of their GDP after the 2nd world war. Put a new light on things - the US while sometime insane, never fail to amaze me with their pragmatism.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 13:58:09
August 11 2015 13:55 GMT
#4755
On August 10 2015 09:18 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2015 08:57 Faust852 wrote:
Even if Tesla is not profitable right away, or even ever, I still think Tesla is a must needed in the US market. Musk is kicking the anthill. Things have been too stale for too long, and companies like Ford and profiting too much of the status co. Tesla is a ground breaking innovation : 500 km autonomy, at least half cheaper than gas, always less polluting than every car ever.

A lot of the merits of electric cars, at least in terms of environmental benefit, are an illusion. How much pollution comes from the production process for a battery? Where does the energy that powers the battery come from, and does that source pollute? Is there energy loss in transmission when using the charger? And are you comparing your data to older cars, or the newer, more efficient and less polluting models, which have substantially higher MPG and substantially lower overall emissions than old cars?

In short: I will believe that there is a viable and economical electric car when I see one. Until then, it's either unproven or a gimmick. The concept has been around for half a century, and I'm not willing to bet that it's been solved just yet, or that it can be solved with a little push.

Show nested quote +
On August 10 2015 08:57 Faust852 wrote:Apparently US citizens aren't doing more than 80km / day on average so yeah autonomy is no problem, and there is SuperChargers everywhere.

Try living in a large (area-wise) city in the US. I definitely drive more than 80km/day on a somewhat regular basis.

Show nested quote +
On August 10 2015 08:57 Faust852 wrote:So if you add everything, considering how climate change and stuff are more and more told about, and that the Tesla is the only car to reach 5/5 in crashtest (they did 5.4/5 lol), I'm pretty sure it will sells like bread.

You could buy a good, reliable, used luxury car for $10k - or you could buy a Tesla for triple that price. Even if it is marginally better overall, it would be a hard sell to most.

Show nested quote +
On August 10 2015 08:57 Faust852 wrote:I like to compare Tesla to Google Fiber. Even if Tesla doesn't work as well as I expect it to do, like Google did with Fiber, the goal is to force big monopolies to change their policies. Google Fiber forced good Telco to drop some line everywhere. If it weren't for Google, I bet you'd still be a 10/1 on big cities.

I would personally compare Google's work more to something like AT&T Bell Labs - a playground for a monopoly that has enough money to be able to pursue ideas that may or may not pan out and prove profitable. Google is pretty much a monopoly when it comes to internet advertising, and so it can afford to pursue ideas that are questionable but impressive if they do manage to work out (and Google, just like Bell Labs, has many expensive failures to its names that it can afford to just write off).

Show nested quote +
On August 10 2015 08:57 Faust852 wrote:And I have confiance in the guy, he wanted to creat the first car company in the US 90y after the last. And he did it. He wanted to make sky rocket, he is now contracted by the Nasa. Looks like he really knows how to do shit.

I consider success to be a proven business idea. His ideas seem more like unproven fantasies that have made him very wealthy by abusing the government and the stock market. It will, of course, be interesting to see if his ideas do pan out, and more power to him if they do. But personally, I think it's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to extravagant ideas, especially those that look suspiciously like a racket.


Sorry I'm late, I only have stats for the US though

The Union of Concerned Scientists24 came up with a way to directly compare car emissions, regardless of the type of car it is—a metric called “miles per gallon equivalent,” or MPGghg (ghg stands for greenhouse gases).

MPGghg is how many miles per gallon a gas car would need to achieve in order to match the carbon emissions of an EV (in the EV’s case, the emissions come from the plant that makes the electricity). In other words, if an EV gets 40 MPGghg, it means it emits the exact same amount of carbon as a gas car that gets 40 MPG.

The average new gas car gets 23 MPG. Anything above 30 MPG is really good for a gas car, and anything below 15 or 17 is bad. For reference, remember that an EV running on just coal would have an MPGghg of 30 (so even in a hypothetical entirely coal-powered state, an EV would be the same as a highly efficient gas car), and an EV running on just natural gas-powered electricity would have an MPGghg of 54 and just top the Toyota Prius, which runs at 50 MPG.


[image loading]



[image loading]

I highly recommand you to read this
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html

It's a really long blog article with shitton of datas and sources. It's really neutral imo.

Even if you drive more than 80km/day, the car has over 400km of autonomy. And the abondance of supercharger that can reload your battery up to 80% in 30min.

And Google doesn't want to cover the whole US with cheap Internet, just breaking the monopolies, or at least forcing these assholes to implement fair lines for people.

User was warned for this post
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 14:03:23
August 11 2015 13:59 GMT
#4756
On August 11 2015 22:03 WhiteDog wrote:
Currently reading varoufakis' book on the global minotaur. A nice read altho most of it is well known.
The funniest part is how the US basically created the Japan and German economic "miracle" by giving nothing less than 2% of their GDP each years after the 2nd world war. Put a new light on things - the US while sometime insane, never fail to amaze me with their pragmatism.


If those are the claims in the book, it is either the consequence of extremely poor research or willful polemics. Not only are the numbers wrong, it is a fundamental misattribution of Marshall's Policy Planning Staff's goals; the essential point of the Draper-Kennan economic recovery programmes were the restoration of European and Japanese economic independence, but such loans were not preferential loans; the United States already had to intervene with stopgap loans in Western Europe after the war to prevent widespread starvation and bankrupcy, a policy which was costing the United States billions per annum, quite apart from the responsibilities of the United States as an occupying power in Germany and Japan, countries in which quotas on industrial production were placed in the postwar years. The US made a great contribution in German recovery simply by fighting for liberalisation of the economic regime under occupation against the other occupying powers, particularly the French; but saying that she created the economic miracle is hyperbole.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 15:28:54
August 11 2015 14:57 GMT
#4757
On August 11 2015 22:59 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2015 22:03 WhiteDog wrote:
Currently reading varoufakis' book on the global minotaur. A nice read altho most of it is well known.
The funniest part is how the US basically created the Japan and German economic "miracle" by giving nothing less than 2% of their GDP each years after the 2nd world war. Put a new light on things - the US while sometime insane, never fail to amaze me with their pragmatism.


If those are the claims in the book, it is either the consequence of extremely poor research or willful polemics. Not only are the numbers wrong, it is a fundamental misattribution of Marshall's Policy Planning Staff's goals; the essential point of the Draper-Kennan economic recovery programmes were the restoration of European and Japanese economic independence, but such loans were not preferential loans; the United States already had to intervene with stopgap loans in Western Europe after the war to prevent widespread starvation and bankrupcy, a policy which was costing the United States billions per annum, quite apart from the responsibilities of the United States as an occupying power in Germany and Japan, countries in which quotas on industrial production were placed in the postwar years. The US made a great contribution in German recovery simply by fighting for liberalisation of the economic regime under occupation against the other occupying powers, particularly the French; but saying that she created the economic miracle is hyperbole.

Quota were placed only in the first few years (up to 1947). Then the cold war forced the US in a rather energic approach and they did in fact created the german and japanede miracle. The german miracle is pretty easy to see : 2% of the US GDP going to Europe (an mainly export oriented economy indirectly thanks to Bretton Woods fix exchange rate - mainly Germany in Europe then) at the expense of the US share in international trade (losing 20% from 1950 to 1970). Note that it is not only the Marshall Plan, but also simple demand of european goods. At the time the US even accepted to restrict their own multinational from competing in some european market. You're right that the french (and the british) opposed it, but they eventually accepted (France got the administration of the Marshall plan in exchange - what is now the OECD).
As for the Japanese, it started a bit later when the war in viet nam and korea gave plenty of demand for Japenede products (an industry that was berely touched by the war, in contrats with the German industry). The transfer from the US to Japan accounted for 30% of Japan's trading.
No it's a pretty solid argument : the US pragmatism (and altruism) created the thirty glorious. Better than just thinking it came from the heaven.
Add to that the fact that the european union was basically created after american influence and it's pretty clear that their behavior made modern europe more than anything.

By the way, the Marshall plan was a loan, but not in the modern sense (if you compare to the Greek situation) : in 1960 (13 years after the plan) only 20 % was paid back and the rest was basically donated.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 18:13:25
August 11 2015 18:11 GMT
#4758
In the case of Japan, the US’s attempts to democratize Japan’s economy and levy punitive measures on the Zaibatsu blamed for the transgressions of Japanese authoritarianism and militarism did great harm to the Japanese economy prior to Draper’s recovery programme in 1948, the Korean war and the final lifting on government controls on current accounts in 1952. Actual American “aid” to Japan in the form of paying the balance between Japan’s exports and imports ranged from 100 to 500 million prewar Yen per annum (not 2% of American GDP), and this was spent on subsistence imports and raw materials necessary to survival, which were in turn sold at subsidized prices. The fact that the Japanese could not manage to pay for their own food and coal was in large part due to the condition of the country brought in by the mismanagement of the SCAP authorities, in their attempts to breakup Zaibatsu holdings and reorganize them into smaller firms. The political purges in the postwar economy did not help either. The Japanese boom started later than in Western Europe, after the restoration of Japanese economic self-determination in the 50s, and when the Japanese implemented their plan of industrial subsidies to targeted sectors of the economy, for the facilitation of which many of the American “democratization” measures of the postwar period were rolled back. In the end American pragmatism is reduced to this: the postwar American restructuring of Japan’s economy was costing the American tax payer hundreds of millions, and was not working. The solution desired by the Americans: the restoration of Japanese self-sufficiency was worked out by Japanese academics advising the postwar government, and it was one of the many lessons in “pragmatism” that American idealists had to learn in the postwar era.

The German problem was linked to the European problem as a whole, since Europe could not recover without German recovery, and Europe was insolvent; lacking the dollar reserves to purchase essential imports such as food. The problem in postwar Europe was not lack of demand; the Europeans were going insolvent paying for American imports year over year; it was their lack of productivity and self-sufficiency that was costing the Americans the burden of subsidizing European survival. The Marshall Plan’s effects were primarily political and psychological: its difference from prior loan packages was that it was sent in the form of goods, rather than money, which was delivered on the basis of a four-year recovery plan drawn up by the respective European governments. It basically introduced the hands-off principle to European recovery. The Marshall Plan marked a change in US-European relations, akin to the difference between a controlling spouse upon whom you are fatally dependent, to a supportive spouse who supports you in your self-proclaimed goals. That was the “benevolent” effect of the Kennan plan upon Europe, far beyond than the economic support the Marshall plan actually bestowed. Like Japan however, it was the Europeans who managed the recovery of their own economies (or lack thereof, in a few cases.)
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 20:38:41
August 11 2015 20:22 GMT
#4759
2% of American GDP was the average in Europe, never said it was the case in Japan - it was 30 % of Japan's trade, it's big, especially for an excedentary country such as the US (and an economic powerhouse).
The second part is ridiculous, why was Europe unable to recover without germany ? Half it's history Europe didn't have a Germany to begin with. Even today actually Europe economy is not linked at all to Germany's performance since it's a country that is heavily developped around exports (an increase in GDP in Germany does not create a subtential increase in demand that afterward support growth for the entire european zone).

The problem in postwar Europe was not lack of demand; the Europeans were going insolvent paying for American imports year over year ; it was their lack of productivity and self-sufficiency that was costing the Americans the burden of subsidizing European survival.

That's also a very ridiculous comment ; the deficit of europe balance account was not due to "self sufficiency" but rather to Bretton Woods - fixed exchange rate.

The Marshall Plan’s effects were primarily political and psychological

So 1 % of the US GDP (which was huge at the time compared to the crushed european economy) is political and psychological ? And it's not about the marshall plan in itself but economic system that was created since 1944 (Bretton Woods) and the way the US used their surplus afterwards (to grow demand for european goods).

Like Japan however, it was the Europeans who managed the recovery of their own economies (or lack thereof, in a few cases.)

You don't seems to make any difference between a "recovery" and what happened, which is (in France for exemple) 5 % gdp growth as average for more than a decade and - more than anything - Europe catching up with the biggest economy at the time, the US : it's the highest growth in history. Africa grow at a good rate right now, it's not going to catch up Europe or the US in the last 20 years.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
August 11 2015 20:33 GMT
#4760
I think you are overlooking how the populace in those countries was already a "First World" population that had the skills/etc necessary to compete globally, they just also had a totally destroyed infrastructure and had lost a sizable portion of their young male population. Those are not systemic problems that prevent competitiveness, they are more akin to a liquidity crisis. If that was an apt analogy to the Greek situation, the infusion of cheap capital in the 15 years prior to the 2007 crisis would have spurred an economic miracle there as well.

It is a lot like how the "big banks" almost immediately paid back their bailout money. Because they needed $1billion for a few months, but then even if you charged them double, they could pay that back a year later. On the other hand GM and Chrysler will never pay back the loans fully because their issues were systemic and just exacerbated by the crash.
Freeeeeeedom
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