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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On June 27 2015 21:39 Taguchi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 20:29 RvB wrote:
Thx for the source.
This referendum is a joke tbh. Not the fact that there is a referendum, that's fine but they could've held it for months without the time pressure there's now. I think Syriza were really, actually, honestly believing they could change Europe's austerity ways, that a workable, mutually beneficial deal could happen. In hindsight... welp. Lift of austerity was never in the cards. A desire to humiliate Syriza probably developed in the meantime.
The first thing Syriza did after having come to power was undo some of the reforms Greece's creditors demanded in return for keeping the country afloat. If they honestly thought that this would somehow enhance their negotiating power with the Troika, then they were pretty delusional. Then there's of course their asking for war reparations from Germany (which earned them nothing but ridicule), their demonising of the creditors, and their cute Truth Commission, which is of course headed by a leading Syriza-member (and probably staffed by party members as well, judging by how things usually transpire in Greece), and whose results will subsequently not be taken serious by anyone except Greeks.
Syriza pissed off Greece's creditors from the very beginning, and they apparently don't plan to stop any time soon. Meanwhile the Troika's patience is running very, very thin. I wonder whether Tsipras & C° realise that one word of them would mean that Greece is bankrupt next week.
This referendum is a joke. All it will achieve is that Tsipras will be able to deny any and all responsibility for what happens next because "the people have decided". People who completely lack the knowledge to make a proper rational decision in the first place.
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Cyprus and now Greece. If the economy falls back even a little the eu will collapse.
Seems to be over now, or is anyone still expecting a solution?
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On June 27 2015 22:02 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 21:39 Taguchi wrote:On June 27 2015 20:29 RvB wrote:
Thx for the source.
This referendum is a joke tbh. Not the fact that there is a referendum, that's fine but they could've held it for months without the time pressure there's now. I think Syriza were really, actually, honestly believing they could change Europe's austerity ways, that a workable, mutually beneficial deal could happen. In hindsight... welp. Lift of austerity was never in the cards. A desire to humiliate Syriza probably developed in the meantime. They've been negotiating for 5 months or something. The creditors have been pretty clear they want more austerity. Syriza clearly knew this as well but still they decided to have the referendum on the last possible moment. There is no real desire to humiliate either Greece or Syriza.
Come on. I just linked that red ink filled rejection of the greek proposal. How do you claim you will reject levy on corporate profits as recessionary and, in the same breath, push for VAT hikes on hotels (the only major export industry of this country), food, cut pensions that almost entirely go into consumption and so on?
If that wasn't politically motivated and engineered towards humiliating Syriza and forcing regime change (or grexit if you're Schaeuble and friends)... Let's get real here.
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Ya, its everywhere on the news here in Sweden.
I wonder what Greece does next, maybe declare bancruptcy and go back to their own currency to fix their economy?
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On June 28 2015 01:34 Integra wrote:Ya, its everywhere on the news here in Sweden. I wonder what Greece does next, maybe declare bancruptcy and go back to their own currency to fix their economy?
If nobody pulls a rabbit out of their hat, this is the most likely course of action. If this indeed happens, I wish them the best and hope this works out 
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
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Poor Greece, another victim of incompetent governance. Though it woulda helped if they'd elected someone more competent than the current clowns.
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On June 28 2015 02:05 zlefin wrote:
Poor Greece, another victim of incompetent governance. Though it woulda helped if they'd elected someone more competent than the current clowns.
They wanted the butter, the butter money and the creamer's daughter. They tried too hard and now they burnt their wings.
Now everyone will suffer, europeans and greek people.
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On June 28 2015 02:05 zlefin wrote:
Poor Greece, another victim of incompetent governance. Though it woulda helped if they'd elected someone more competent than the current clowns.
The ones that haven't been in power yet are the communists and the nazis.
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Tsipras gambled everything on the hope they the EU would never allow Greece to default. That they would accept any offer so long as it prevented the default.
He was wrong.
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Gorsameth, take a real hard look at Greek govt proposal and Eurogroup proposal and compare them. Just do it, please. Your commentary, and others' commentary about Greek govt trying to 'blackmail' and so on is hurting my brain.
On June 28 2015 01:56 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 01:34 Integra wrote:Ya, its everywhere on the news here in Sweden. I wonder what Greece does next, maybe declare bancruptcy and go back to their own currency to fix their economy? If nobody pulls a rabbit out of their hat, this is the most likely course of action. If this indeed happens, I wish them the best and hope this works out
Seems like only France is still willing to try. Sapin was, reportedly, the only FinMin willing to accept the short extension to accommodate the referendum. I find it mildly amusing (but sad more than anything) that Eurogroup decided it doesn't even want to see referendum results - only regime change seems to be somewhat acceptable (if grudgingly). Are you guys really ok with this?
Not blame shifting, just genuinely asking. However badly Tsipras handled this, Eurogroup seems to not be interested in the result of a referendum. This is...
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On June 28 2015 02:58 Taguchi wrote:Gorsameth, take a real hard look at Greek govt proposal and Eurogroup proposal and compare them. Just do it, please. Your commentary, and others' commentary about Greek govt trying to 'blackmail' and so on is hurting my brain. Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 01:56 ACrow wrote:On June 28 2015 01:34 Integra wrote:Ya, its everywhere on the news here in Sweden. I wonder what Greece does next, maybe declare bancruptcy and go back to their own currency to fix their economy? If nobody pulls a rabbit out of their hat, this is the most likely course of action. If this indeed happens, I wish them the best and hope this works out Seems like only France is still willing to try. Sapin was, reportedly, the only FinMin willing to accept the short extension to accommodate the referendum. I find it mildly amusing (but sad more than anything) that Eurogroup decided it doesn't even want to see referendum results - only regime change seems to be somewhat acceptable (if grudgingly). Are you guys really ok with this? Not blame shifting, just genuinely asking. However badly Tsipras handled this, Eurogroup seems to not be interested in the result of a referendum. This is...
Right, The deadline was February. It got moved up to end of June then at 1 am on the Friday before the deadline Greek negotiators walk away from the negotiations while Tsipras announces, without having mentioned it to the Eurogroup, his referendum. Which falls after the deadline.
IF, they approve the deal it would be a minor delay but would likely force the collapse of the current government since their mandate was to not have this deal. New elections ectect = more delays. if they decline the deal then the extension was for nothing.
Its a lose lose for the EU. why would they ever agree to it? If Tsipras was so eager to get the peoples opinion he could have held a referendum sooner then past the already extended deadline.
As for reading the 2 proposals, why? In my eyes Greece lost its right to decide when they lied about their economy to get in the Euro, mismanaged their government for decades and had to be saved by the ECB and IMF only to then repeatedly fail to meet the agreements of the bailout.
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On June 28 2015 02:58 Taguchi wrote:Gorsameth, take a real hard look at Greek govt proposal and Eurogroup proposal and compare them. Just do it, please. Your commentary, and others' commentary about Greek govt trying to 'blackmail' and so on is hurting my brain. Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 01:56 ACrow wrote:On June 28 2015 01:34 Integra wrote:Ya, its everywhere on the news here in Sweden. I wonder what Greece does next, maybe declare bancruptcy and go back to their own currency to fix their economy? If nobody pulls a rabbit out of their hat, this is the most likely course of action. If this indeed happens, I wish them the best and hope this works out Seems like only France is still willing to try. Sapin was, reportedly, the only FinMin willing to accept the short extension to accommodate the referendum. I find it mildly amusing (but sad more than anything) that Eurogroup decided it doesn't even want to see referendum results - only regime change seems to be somewhat acceptable (if grudgingly). Are you guys really ok with this? Not blame shifting, just genuinely asking. However badly Tsipras handled this, Eurogroup seems to not be interested in the result of a referendum. This is...
Could you provide a link with both proposal please ?
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On June 28 2015 03:11 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 02:58 Taguchi wrote:Gorsameth, take a real hard look at Greek govt proposal and Eurogroup proposal and compare them. Just do it, please. Your commentary, and others' commentary about Greek govt trying to 'blackmail' and so on is hurting my brain. On June 28 2015 01:56 ACrow wrote:On June 28 2015 01:34 Integra wrote:Ya, its everywhere on the news here in Sweden. I wonder what Greece does next, maybe declare bancruptcy and go back to their own currency to fix their economy? If nobody pulls a rabbit out of their hat, this is the most likely course of action. If this indeed happens, I wish them the best and hope this works out Seems like only France is still willing to try. Sapin was, reportedly, the only FinMin willing to accept the short extension to accommodate the referendum. I find it mildly amusing (but sad more than anything) that Eurogroup decided it doesn't even want to see referendum results - only regime change seems to be somewhat acceptable (if grudgingly). Are you guys really ok with this? Not blame shifting, just genuinely asking. However badly Tsipras handled this, Eurogroup seems to not be interested in the result of a referendum. This is... Could you provide a link with both proposal please ?
Greek proposal.
Creditor proposal.
As far as I'm aware these are the latest ones.
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On June 28 2015 03:11 Gorsameth wrote:
As for reading the 2 proposals, why? In my eyes Greece lost its right to decide when they lied about their economy to get in the Euro, mismanaged their government for decades and had to be saved by the ECB and IMF only to then repeatedly fail to meet the agreements of the bailout.
Is this tale that has been disproved countless times still being told in your media or is just a remnance from the past years?
To put you in fast forward the current trend is that modern Greeks are not the same race as ancient Greeks but some mold of Turks, Albanians w/e (does it really matters? i wish to be a pie) and so.... we are not good for the europe?
Griechenland zerstörte schon einmal Europas Ordnung (Greeks have destroyed the european order before)
Things start to look a bit ugly.
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On June 28 2015 03:34 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 03:11 Gorsameth wrote:
As for reading the 2 proposals, why? In my eyes Greece lost its right to decide when they lied about their economy to get in the Euro, mismanaged their government for decades and had to be saved by the ECB and IMF only to then repeatedly fail to meet the agreements of the bailout. Is this tale that has been disproved countless times still being told in your media or is just a remnance from the past years? To put you in fast forward the current trend is that modern Greeks are not the same race as ancient Greeks but some mold of Turks, Albanians w/e (does it really matters? i wish to be a pie) and so.... we are not good for the europe? Griechenland zerstörte schon einmal Europas Ordnung (Greeks have destroyed the european order before) Things start to look a bit ugly.
I'm sorry but, wtf are you even talking about. None of that has anything to do with what I said.
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On June 28 2015 03:34 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 03:11 Gorsameth wrote:
As for reading the 2 proposals, why? In my eyes Greece lost its right to decide when they lied about their economy to get in the Euro, mismanaged their government for decades and had to be saved by the ECB and IMF only to then repeatedly fail to meet the agreements of the bailout. Is this tale that has been disproved countless times still being told in your media or is just a remnance from the past years? To put you in fast forward the current trend is that modern Greeks are not the same race as ancient Greeks but some mold of Turks, Albanians w/e (does it really matters? i wish to be a pie) and so.... we are not good for the europe? Griechenland zerstörte schon einmal Europas Ordnung (Greeks have destroyed the european order before) Things start to look a bit ugly.
This is still an economical problem, some obscure historical analogy in a right-wing newspaper isn't going to change that. I don't think the Eurogroup leaders care a lot whether Greeks are running around in togas doing math or if they view themselves as orthodox balkans.
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Everybody knew Greece was cheating to get into the EURO and nevertheless it was pushed through because of political reasons. Maybe with the hope that Greece can reform itself in the Eurozone. Yet that seems to have failed.
I don't understand why Tsipras did not accept the creditors proposal. It might have cost him the office but what is coming now when Greece defaults and can't pay pensions and government officials anymore is far worse. Also the debt will not go away. In my opinion instead of debating about the debt inside the Europgroup, Greece will be forced to debate it in the Club of Paris now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Club
@accela and taguchi: Can you guys name trustworthy organisations in Greece that are helping the people in need there? I was thinking about donating to the hellenic red cross but don't know if the money really reaches those that need help.
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EPT
