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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
Who is to say that if Romania were to put human rights and European commitment at the top of the agenda, economic success would not follow? I am saying that. It should be obvious to anyone with a little bit of history knowledge that economic success has nothing to do with human rights. Rises of USA and China are best examples. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5906 Posts
On December 30 2018 18:52 Silvanel wrote: Well history says so, Sweden was already wealthy country before rise of environmentalism and human rights activism. I am saying that. It should be obvious to anyone with a little bit of history knowledge that economic success has nothing to do with human rights. Rises of USA and China are best examples. IIRC, Sweden was still sterilizing people for eugenic reasons until 1970's when it was already quite wealthy... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 30 2018 18:52 Silvanel wrote: Well history says so, Sweden was already wealthy country before rise of environmentalism and human rights activism. I am saying that. It should be obvious to anyone with a little bit of history knowledge that economic success has nothing to do with human rights. Rises of USA and China are best examples. Economic success comes from people being allowed to develop freely and basic rights are a core component for that success. China has come a long road from the political supression and the economy is skyrocketing. The post Roosvelt US/EU is falling into an incredible inequality of inheritance-fueled rulership of rich families and the economies are steadily going down. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9336 Posts
On December 30 2018 10:29 Nyxisto wrote: I think this is very circular and misses the causality. Who says that having an eye on envrionemntal issues, fundamental human rights, and regional cooperation isn't the very reason for Sweden's economic and material success. Sweden is a internationally competitive, open society running on human capital and not on oil wealth. I think you would do Sweden a disservice if you were to pretend their economic success is unrelated to their commitment to political issues that put those cultural values at the forefront in the first place. Who is to say that if Romania were to put human rights and European commitment at the top of the agenda, economic success would not follow? Can you explain how a Northern European society running on human capital and not on oil wealth became significantly more successful due to having an eye on environmental issues? I'm not denying the importance of the other two positions at the moment, it's the climate issue that stands out. Also, according to that map Romanians do have human rights and democracy in their top 3. | ||
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pmh
1416 Posts
On December 30 2018 21:39 Big J wrote: Economic success comes from people being allowed to develop freely and basic rights are a core component for that success. China has come a long road from the political supression and the economy is skyrocketing. The post Roosvelt US/EU is falling into an incredible inequality of inheritance-fueled rulership of rich families and the economies are steadily going down. This no doubt plays a role but the biggest factor i think is demographic in nature. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On December 30 2018 22:43 Sent. wrote: Can you explain how a Northern European society running on human capital and not on oil wealth became significantly more successful due to having an eye on environmental issues? I'm not denying the importance of the other two positions at the moment, it's the climate issue that stands out. Also, according to that map Romanians do have human rights and democracy in their top 3. Well take Denmark for example. When environmentalist concerns in the 1980s about climate change grew Denmark made radical adjustments quite early and pushed for renewable energy. They are now a commercial leader in wind technology, and this is going to pay dividends to them long term as the entire world switches to green tech. Environmental regulation is a chance for the commercial sector, not just a burden, because it pushes the tech sector towards innovation. Countries that sit on their resource wealth might do well in the short term, but not in the long term. On December 30 2018 18:52 Silvanel wrote: Well history says so, Sweden was already wealthy country before rise of environmentalism and human rights activism. I am saying that. It should be obvious to anyone with a little bit of history knowledge that economic success has nothing to do with human rights. Rises of USA and China are best examples. Sweden was a very poor country when it became democratic. Openness, in a historical sense, doesn't just mean 21st century activism. It means democracy, suffrage, and liberalism. And Sweden became a very liberal country long before it was rich. So did the United States by the way. The United States was not a rich country when it was founded, and its values preceded it's economic rise in the 19th century. In fact, the American south, which was repressive, was an economic disaster. At one point, The state of New York surpassed the entire south in economic output. The same is also true for China. China might look repressive compared to the West, but go to Beijing, Shanghai or Shenzhen, or Hongkong, or any other of the special economic zones, and you will see they're quite free. And those areas were often literal experiments. Shenzhen was a fishing village 30 years ago. Putting the right institutions in place first can do wonders for development. Hell, even in Europe Poland and the Baltics are on their way to eclipse parts of southern Europe if they don't go off the rails. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
China is another story. Is seemingly free to unintiated, but when You look close You see that its only economic freedom. People in China have absolutly no say in political process. Or maybe the forced displacment and reeducation of hundreds of thousands of muslims is the display of Chinas love for human rights? In case You dont know what i am refering to here is the link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps To put it short: Its economic freedom that is necessary condition for economic rise, not enviromentalism or human rise activism. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
The brightest people today are still drawn to regions that also are also staunchly progressive. I'm well aware of the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang, but what are you trying to say? It's a police state far away from the innovative regions of China. The Chinese government overall might be oppressive. In the regions where it generates economic growth it is not. Meanwhile, Russia and Turkey are facing economic stagnation or in the latter case almost economic meltdown. There is absolutely no indication that this resurgence of strongman politics is somehow economically beneficially to nations. Which entrepreneur or high skilled worker is going to move to Russia today? There seems to be an orchestrated effort over the last 10-ish years to try to separate economic freedom from political freedom, mostly coming from authoritarian countries, but also spilling over into Western discourse. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
Edit: To put is simple i believe economic prosperity is requiremnt for enviromental activism and human rights becoming a major concern for majority of population. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On December 31 2018 05:14 Nyxisto wrote: Cough cough Hukou system cough cough. That in itself turns your already tenuous argument of speration of economic freedoms into total balderdash. Freedom my arse. Also... Hong Kong is quite free? Really?The same is also true for China. China might look repressive compared to the West, but go to Beijing, Shanghai or Shenzhen, or Hongkong, or any other of the special economic zones, and you will see they're quite free. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Unfortunately for you, as it turns out, I visited Shanghai and Hong Kong about 2 years ago. I couldn't even get on Facebook! it was blocked! My kind hosts were making jokes about Big Brother watching everything I post online (I'm not sure about the Big Brother part, might be a mistranslation.) (Also they used VPN to bypass the block but whatever. Please don't report them Nyxisto, I don't want them to be re-educated in a fun-camp.) In Hong Kong, they were removing members of elected members of Legislature who were pro-democracy under spurious charges and financially attacked. That doesn't sound free to me. Also you have somehow missed the protests against Chinese rule in Hong Kong, which although never fully democratic, were far more free before Chinese rule. I knew a Chinese Phd student. He never knew about Tiananmen square. He was pretty spooked by the idea that the entire world knew about this, but he someone who lived most of his life in China doesn't know about this. He also told me about this wonderful Hukou system in Shanghai, a system where peasants from the countryside do not have the same economic and social rights as the burghers living in the city, like some sort of European social system from the medieval ages I kid you not. But hey feel free to completely ignore the Hukou system in your argument that China is economically free, a country where all big business must hire a party overseer. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
It's like arguing that the entire european continent is a dictatorship because Belarus and Turkey exists. Lets not start about working conditions for labor in these zones either. Sidenote, as long as something like Tencent exists in China, every argument is void either way. Incidentally also located in Shenzhen. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On January 09 2019 00:50 m4ini wrote: It's interesting how we nowadays can argue that "china is free even compared to the west" by using SEZs as example. You know. Special economic zones. Of which there are a whopping 19 in the entirety of china. But nobody seriously argues that China is freer than the West, only that it has seen a significant amount of progress since its opening up to the world under Deng, and that the placement of correct institutions, in SEZs, was a condition for prosperity, rather than somehow bought retroactively. Also on more related European news, good article on what's wrong with the yellow vest movement: https://newrepublic.com/article/152853/ugly-illiberal-anti-semitic-heart-yellow-vest-movement | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24488 Posts
On January 09 2019 08:06 Nyxisto wrote: But nobody seriously argues that China is freer than the West, only that it has seen a significant amount of progress since its opening up to the world under Deng, and that the placement of correct institutions, in SEZs, was a condition for prosperity, rather than somehow bought retroactively. Also on more related European news, good article on what's wrong with the yellow vest movement: https://newrepublic.com/article/152853/ugly-illiberal-anti-semitic-heart-yellow-vest-movement Isn't that just a problem with the French (as well as plenty of others) population, not the yellow vest movement specifically? | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On January 09 2019 08:06 Nyxisto wrote: But nobody seriously argues that China is freer than the West, only that it has seen a significant amount of progress since its opening up to the world under Deng, and that the placement of correct institutions, in SEZs, was a condition for prosperity, rather than somehow bought retroactively. Also on more related European news, good article on what's wrong with the yellow vest movement: https://newrepublic.com/article/152853/ugly-illiberal-anti-semitic-heart-yellow-vest-movement I'm going to have to back up GH pretty strongly on this one. You can see where things are going from the first lines: The protests have combined legitimate economic grievances with the worst of far-right politics. And the French left has been happy to go along. This is the standard sort of argument used to try and break up united movements. You shouldn't like these guys (who you probably don't but are side by side because you're in the same boat) so why are you engaging in protest with them? Note also that it says this is at the 'heart' of the movement, suggesting that's the real reason for the riots. It's deflection, and a poor man's job of it. It's hardly a shock that a movement involving working class people involves a ton of racist fuckwits. The latter group tend to be working class and/or poor. The article is all about spinning it as some devious plan of the French far right rather than what it is, a bunch of fed up poor people letting out their anger, across the entire spectrum (and involving plenty of the aforementioned racist fuckwits). Note the article's conclusion isn't "Let's sort this out so the economic conditions aren't there for these people to get so angry," it's "how sad that the left is being fooled by these people." | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18487 Posts
On January 09 2019 21:35 iamthedave wrote: I'm going to have to back up GH pretty strongly on this one. You can see where things are going from the first lines: The protests have combined legitimate economic grievances with the worst of far-right politics. And the French left has been happy to go along. This is the standard sort of argument used to try and break up united movements. You shouldn't like these guys (who you probably don't but are side by side because you're in the same boat) so why are you engaging in protest with them? Note also that it says this is at the 'heart' of the movement, suggesting that's the real reason for the riots. It's deflection, and a poor man's job of it. It's hardly a shock that a movement involving working class people involves a ton of racist fuckwits. The latter group tend to be working class and/or poor. The article is all about spinning it as some devious plan of the French far right rather than what it is, a bunch of fed up poor people letting out their anger, across the entire spectrum (and involving plenty of the aforementioned racist fuckwits). Note the article's conclusion isn't "Let's sort this out so the economic conditions aren't there for these people to get so angry," it's "how sad that the left is being fooled by these people." I disagree. Neither the Indignados, nor their international offshoots in various Occupy movements were subverted by right-wing fuckwits. They were white people movements for white people problems, and while those problems were also faced by other people, that was not the thrust of the movement. They were movements by poor people against the bailout of the banks while unemployment soared. Yet it didn't flirt with neonazism, as the yellow vests apparently do. Maybe it's a sign of the times, and if Occupy had happened now, they'd be doing exactly the same. Or maybe there is something qualitatively different about the poor white people protesting in yellow vests and the poor white people protesting in Occupy movements. Either way, it's a rather worrying phenomenon of the movement, and whitewashing it as "oh, it's just poor white fuckwits, ignore them" is not a good plan. Now I don't think it's a good way to discredit the movement either, so I agree with your conclusion. But the fact that this is being subverted as a racist movement is disconcerting and something the original progressive left organizers should strive to combat. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
So although they are right in their analysis, if they force me into a choice of "some good and some ugly" versus the ongoing "only ugly" then I know which side I will take. Personally I would not fight for "some ugly", it is really up to the ruling class what they intend to do and we all know that they are going to try and pacify the "some ugly"-side in their scheme and not those, with the "legitimate economic concerns". | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On January 09 2019 22:02 Acrofales wrote: I disagree. Neither the Indignados, nor their international offshoots in various Occupy movements were subverted by right-wing fuckwits. They were white people movements for white people problems, and while those problems were also faced by other people, that was not the thrust of the movement. They were movements by poor people against the bailout of the banks while unemployment soared. Yet it didn't flirt with neonazism, as the yellow vests apparently do. Maybe it's a sign of the times, and if Occupy had happened now, they'd be doing exactly the same. Or maybe there is something qualitatively different about the poor white people protesting in yellow vests and the poor white people protesting in Occupy movements. Either way, it's a rather worrying phenomenon of the movement, and whitewashing it as "oh, it's just poor white fuckwits, ignore them" is not a good plan. Now I don't think it's a good way to discredit the movement either, so I agree with your conclusion. But the fact that this is being subverted as a racist movement is disconcerting and something the original progressive left organizers should strive to combat. I can't speak to how it'd be in the US. I think that is quite likely, though. The problem with your position is that it amounts to: "Stop fighting to achieve your goals, please. It is far more important (and convenient) that you fight among yourselves." You can't really do both. They can't start turning away or 'policing' who is allowed to wear a yellow vest or who is affected 'enough' by the cause to have their voice heard. Since you brought up Occupy, you may recall that the Occupy movement fell apart entirely because the movement began to fracture and infight. Yes, they're very unpleasant people. The onus is on the government to stop making everyone so angry that they'd happily stand shoulder to shoulder with these people, not 'how can you let these people protest beside you'. It's an attempt to diffuse energy and weaken, and ultimately destroy, the movement without ever having to do something to address its concerns. if these signs are alarming, the government should do something about it. | ||
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