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On October 24 2018 21:24 Neneu wrote:
Just wondering, do you not as a voter elect the members of EU parliament? How is it then not a democratic institution?
The parliament is a democratic institution of the EU but it has hardly any power of its own. Mr Juncker and the parliament are the only democratic representatives of the EU, neither of them can make a decision without the commission or the council.
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we vote for the MEPs. Those are directly elected.
We do not vote on the Commision, the MEPs (who we voted in) vote on that iirc?
So the argument that the EU is undemocratic would be akin to saying a nation would be undemocratic if it let's you vote for parties (not for one specific person to become leader) who then form a government out of those elected parties and makes those parties decide who will be prime minister/president/chancelor/whatever.
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Is the ability to pass laws, not a strong power? Also, does not your democratic elected goverment choose who is represented in the commissions and the parliament itself choose who the EU president is? Is that not quite similar to representative democracy? Or am I totally wrong here?
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The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty
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But those you voted for decided it. Isn't that representative democracy?
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On October 24 2018 21:42 Neneu wrote:
Is the ability to pass laws, not a strong power? Also, does not your democratic elected goverment choose who is represented in the commissions and the parliament itself choose who the EU president is? Is that not quite similar to representative democracy? Or am I totally wrong here?
yes, it's literally the same as the US system if I understood their system correctly bakc when 2016 election happened? They (in the US) essentially vote for a party, you get delegates out of your votes, and those delegates then decide on who becomes the president.
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On October 24 2018 21:47 Neneu wrote:
But those you voted for decided it. Isn't that representative democracy?
Decided what?
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On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty
is your argument that before the formation of the EU there was no EU who could have voted on this? (and instead it was the single countries who decided it)
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On October 24 2018 21:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:47 Neneu wrote:
But those you voted for decided it. Isn't that representative democracy? Decided what?
On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty
If one were to suppose that is what EU decided to do one day. Is it not those who you voted in, either in your own government or in the EU parliament, who decided it?
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On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty Pretty sure the European people voted for the governments that came together and formed the EU.
And France even held a referendum for it so 'you' actually got to vote for it. (even tho it only won by a very narrow margin)
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On October 24 2018 21:40 Toadesstern wrote:
we vote for the MEPs. Those are directly elected.
We do not vote on the Commision, the MEPs (who we voted in) vote on that iirc?
So the argument that the EU is undemocratic would be akin to saying a nation would be undemocratic if it let's you vote for parties (not for one specific person to become leader) who then form a government out of those elected parties and makes those parties decide who will be prime minister/president/chancelor/whatever.
The national governments designate commissioners, not the parliament. The parliament can vote on them. They cannot however select someone to become a commissioner.
The commission is the only institution capable to initiate laws. The parliament can then pass them or not. And if they do, the European council, so the ministers from the national governments, can still block them.
The parliament basically has veto powers, but no prime legislative or executive function.
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On October 24 2018 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty is your argument that before the formation of the EU there was no EU who could have voted on this? (and instead it was the single countries who decided it)
My argument would basically be that over time, treaties mutualized more and more things, yet peoples were never asked if they truly wanted the United States of the Europe in the first place.
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On October 24 2018 21:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:40 Toadesstern wrote:
we vote for the MEPs. Those are directly elected.
We do not vote on the Commision, the MEPs (who we voted in) vote on that iirc?
So the argument that the EU is undemocratic would be akin to saying a nation would be undemocratic if it let's you vote for parties (not for one specific person to become leader) who then form a government out of those elected parties and makes those parties decide who will be prime minister/president/chancelor/whatever. The national governments designate commissioners, not the parliament. The parliament can vote on them. They cannot however select someone to become a commissioner. The commission is the only institution capable to initiate laws. The parliament can then pass them or not. And if they do, the European council, so the ministers from the national governments, can still block them. The parliament basically has veto powers, but no prime legislative or executive function.
but you vote on those national governments as well, don't you?
On October 24 2018 21:55 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty is your argument that before the formation of the EU there was no EU who could have voted on this? (and instead it was the single countries who decided it) My argument would basically be that over time, treaties mutualized more and more things, yet peoples were never asked if they truly wanted the United States of the Europe in the first place.
I can get the argument of powercreep if that's what you're getting at. I'd disagree with it but I can at least understand where you're comming from with that one.
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On October 24 2018 22:01 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:55 Big J wrote:On October 24 2018 21:40 Toadesstern wrote:
we vote for the MEPs. Those are directly elected.
We do not vote on the Commision, the MEPs (who we voted in) vote on that iirc?
So the argument that the EU is undemocratic would be akin to saying a nation would be undemocratic if it let's you vote for parties (not for one specific person to become leader) who then form a government out of those elected parties and makes those parties decide who will be prime minister/president/chancelor/whatever. The national governments designate commissioners, not the parliament. The parliament can vote on them. They cannot however select someone to become a commissioner. The commission is the only institution capable to initiate laws. The parliament can then pass them or not. And if they do, the European council, so the ministers from the national governments, can still block them. The parliament basically has veto powers, but no prime legislative or executive function. but you vote on those national governments as well, don't you?
No. I have never voted on the German government or 26 others.
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On October 24 2018 22:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 22:01 Toadesstern wrote:On October 24 2018 21:55 Big J wrote:On October 24 2018 21:40 Toadesstern wrote:
we vote for the MEPs. Those are directly elected.
We do not vote on the Commision, the MEPs (who we voted in) vote on that iirc?
So the argument that the EU is undemocratic would be akin to saying a nation would be undemocratic if it let's you vote for parties (not for one specific person to become leader) who then form a government out of those elected parties and makes those parties decide who will be prime minister/president/chancelor/whatever. The national governments designate commissioners, not the parliament. The parliament can vote on them. They cannot however select someone to become a commissioner. The commission is the only institution capable to initiate laws. The parliament can then pass them or not. And if they do, the European council, so the ministers from the national governments, can still block them. The parliament basically has veto powers, but no prime legislative or executive function. but you vote on those national governments as well, don't you? On October 24 2018 21:55 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty is your argument that before the formation of the EU there was no EU who could have voted on this? (and instead it was the single countries who decided it) My argument would basically be that over time, treaties mutualized more and more things, yet peoples were never asked if they truly wanted the United States of the Europe in the first place. I can get the argument of powercreep if that's what you're getting at. I'd disagree with it but I can at least understand where you're comming from with that one. No.
You didn’t get to vote on the government that made the laws about land rights and property either, but you still enjoy those rights.
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On October 24 2018 21:54 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty Pretty sure the European people voted for the governments that came together and formed the EU. And France even held a referendum for it so 'you' actually got to vote for it. (even tho it only won by a very narrow margin)
If you talk about Maastricht, it was 25 years ago and yes, it only won 51/49. But the TCE was also refused in 2005, and it contained all prior treaties, including Maastricht. So from there, there should have been a clarification. But conservatives and "social-democrats" made everything to bury the theme and passed a copy of the TCE together in the Congress in 2008, betraying Sarkozy's promise of a "mini-treaty".
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On October 24 2018 22:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 22:01 Toadesstern wrote:On October 24 2018 21:55 Big J wrote:On October 24 2018 21:40 Toadesstern wrote:
we vote for the MEPs. Those are directly elected.
We do not vote on the Commision, the MEPs (who we voted in) vote on that iirc?
So the argument that the EU is undemocratic would be akin to saying a nation would be undemocratic if it let's you vote for parties (not for one specific person to become leader) who then form a government out of those elected parties and makes those parties decide who will be prime minister/president/chancelor/whatever. The national governments designate commissioners, not the parliament. The parliament can vote on them. They cannot however select someone to become a commissioner. The commission is the only institution capable to initiate laws. The parliament can then pass them or not. And if they do, the European council, so the ministers from the national governments, can still block them. The parliament basically has veto powers, but no prime legislative or executive function. but you vote on those national governments as well, don't you? No. I have never voted on the German government or 26 others.
I don't vote in other municipalities in Norway, but they still decide matters in my county in its institution together with representatives from the parties in my municipality parliament. This institution is considered to be a democratic institution. Would you say it is not?
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Taken from: https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/what-is-guide-to-key-eu-terms/eu-what-is-a-european-commissioner.html
A new Commission is appointed every five years, within six months of the elections to the European Parliament.
The procedure for appointing a Commissioner is as follows:
The member state governments agree together on who to designate as the new Commission President.
The Commission President-designate, in discussion with the member state governments, chooses the other 29 Members of the Commission.
you literally voted the Commission President in via proxy of your national government.
I get arguments that there should be more or less direct democracy but I don't get to vote on who will be the next minister of education or whatever either. I get to vote on a party on the national level, they then form a government (I have no direct say in that either), they then figure out who will be the chancelor (I have no direct say in that either, although I'd argue it's quite obvious who each party would pick in case they get the most votes as they campaign on that), they then decide who gets what kind of ministerial office (I don't have any direct say on that either).
I really fail to see the difference here from a principle point of view. If your argument is that you want more direct democracy okay, but that doesn't mean something with less direct democracy is automatically undemocratic.
//edit oh he edited the post. It was just "no" at first. So his point is that he doesn't get to vote in each nation...
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On October 24 2018 22:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:54 Gorsameth wrote:On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty Pretty sure the European people voted for the governments that came together and formed the EU. And France even held a referendum for it so 'you' actually got to vote for it. (even tho it only won by a very narrow margin) If you talk about Maastricht, it was 25 years ago and yes, it only won 51/49. But the TCE was also refused in 2005, and it contained all prior treaties, including Maastricht. So from there, there should have been a clarification. But conservatives and "social-democrats" made everything to bury the theme and passed a copy of the TCE together in the Congress in 2008, betraying Sarkozy's promise of a "mini-treaty". Sounds less like a lack of Democracy and more like you don't agree with the choice your Democratically elected government made.
Welcome to life.
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On October 24 2018 22:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 22:04 Big J wrote:On October 24 2018 22:01 Toadesstern wrote:On October 24 2018 21:55 Big J wrote:On October 24 2018 21:40 Toadesstern wrote:
we vote for the MEPs. Those are directly elected.
We do not vote on the Commision, the MEPs (who we voted in) vote on that iirc?
So the argument that the EU is undemocratic would be akin to saying a nation would be undemocratic if it let's you vote for parties (not for one specific person to become leader) who then form a government out of those elected parties and makes those parties decide who will be prime minister/president/chancelor/whatever. The national governments designate commissioners, not the parliament. The parliament can vote on them. They cannot however select someone to become a commissioner. The commission is the only institution capable to initiate laws. The parliament can then pass them or not. And if they do, the European council, so the ministers from the national governments, can still block them. The parliament basically has veto powers, but no prime legislative or executive function. but you vote on those national governments as well, don't you? On October 24 2018 21:55 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:On October 24 2018 21:44 TheDwf wrote:
The EU is undemocratic because there is no corresponding European people who decided to merge their older nations and mutualize their budget, laws, territory and sovereignty is your argument that before the formation of the EU there was no EU who could have voted on this? (and instead it was the single countries who decided it) My argument would basically be that over time, treaties mutualized more and more things, yet peoples were never asked if they truly wanted the United States of the Europe in the first place. I can get the argument of powercreep if that's what you're getting at. I'd disagree with it but I can at least understand where you're comming from with that one. No. You didn’t get to vote on the government that made the laws about land rights and property either, but you still enjoy those rights.
I don't have property or land rights, I don't agree to their distribution and if the government would stop executing them I would not follow them. Unless you mean the useless phrase that I am allowed to own property and land - but only if someone else sells it to me at their price - I don't know what right I am supposed to have.
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EPT
