|
In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards. Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread. Updated policy on aggressive posting and insults. |
On July 18 2014 02:19 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:18 gruff wrote:On July 18 2014 02:15 Roggay wrote:On July 18 2014 02:12 ahswtini wrote:
This is probably the end of Malaysian airlines too Probably not no? Why would you say that? Two high profile crashes in a year is a lot more than some airlines have gone away for. No idea if they will, just saying. And who's going to replace them? AirAsia? Sure, people might think once or twice before flying with them, but i really doubt they are going to disappear.
Apparently they were in a pretty shitty situation before the first crash earlier this year. This may very well be the final blow to Malaysian Airlines as we know it. Will probably be bought out and rebranded tho.
|
On July 18 2014 02:26 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:04 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 02:02 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:51 Roggay wrote:On July 18 2014 01:46 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2014 01:42 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:40 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2014 01:37 zeo wrote:
[quote]
I'm sure you know exactly what happened because you were there... Can you remind me which of the two parties has been shooting down planes and helicopters for the last few months? Wait, your telling me the rebels don't have a functional airforce? Thats totally weird. I guess that explains why only one side has been shooting down flying stuff. More importantly it explains who shot down this plane. No it doesn't. edit: the anti-government forces simply do not have the hardware capable of taking down a plane at that altitude. Didnt they boast having such capabilities? Plus they did report shooting down a plane. And the kiev has no interest shooting at any plane, which can only be their own or russian (which they really have no interest in shooting down). You mean the same sources people in the last thread said were laughable propaganda? The Kiev military just got routed and completely collapsed south of Donetsk yesterday. With the tides turning in their favor the last thing they need is a civilian plane being shot down. Which is likely why they deleted the social media posts soon after the news was released. One thing is for sure, the plane did not fall from the sky for no reason. Exactly, I'm sure there will be an investigation (of course) and people can find out just what hit it, how, etc. Given the controversy surrounding the crash during a time of conflict, my expectations of any objective investigation without significant bias is slim. Both sides have an incentive to claim different results from an "investigation," regardless of whether or not they're legit.
The only hope would be to have an external investigation, say from boeing.
|
On July 18 2014 02:21 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:18 gruff wrote:On July 18 2014 02:15 Roggay wrote:On July 18 2014 02:12 ahswtini wrote:
This is probably the end of Malaysian airlines too Probably not no? Why would you say that? Two high profile crashes in a year is a lot more than some airlines have gone away for. No idea if they will, just saying. If there is enough competition to replace them maybe.
to be fair, there's nothing MAS can do about a ground-to-air missile.
quite a nice year to be malaysian :/
On July 18 2014 02:27 Gosi wrote:
Apparently they were in a pretty shitty situation before the first crash earlier this year. This may very well be the final blow to Malaysian Airlines as we know it. Will probably be bought out and rebranded tho.
Yeah, MAS is practically bleeding money. It's been heavily subsidies by the government for quite a few years now.
|
On July 18 2014 02:26 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:04 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 02:02 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:51 Roggay wrote:On July 18 2014 01:46 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2014 01:42 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:40 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2014 01:37 zeo wrote:
[quote]
I'm sure you know exactly what happened because you were there... Can you remind me which of the two parties has been shooting down planes and helicopters for the last few months? Wait, your telling me the rebels don't have a functional airforce? Thats totally weird. I guess that explains why only one side has been shooting down flying stuff. More importantly it explains who shot down this plane. No it doesn't. edit: the anti-government forces simply do not have the hardware capable of taking down a plane at that altitude. Didnt they boast having such capabilities? Plus they did report shooting down a plane. And the kiev has no interest shooting at any plane, which can only be their own or russian (which they really have no interest in shooting down). You mean the same sources people in the last thread said were laughable propaganda? The Kiev military just got routed and completely collapsed south of Donetsk yesterday. With the tides turning in their favor the last thing they need is a civilian plane being shot down. Which is likely why they deleted the social media posts soon after the news was released. One thing is for sure, the plane did not fall from the sky for no reason. Exactly, I'm sure there will be an investigation (of course) and people can find out just what hit it, how, etc. Given the controversy surrounding the crash during a time of conflict, my expectations of any objective investigation without significant bias is slim. Both sides have an incentive to claim different results from an "investigation," regardless of whether or not they're legit.
Rofl, if only there was some independent organization with a dog in this fight.
Oh wait... Malaysian Airlines?
|
On July 18 2014 02:17 ticklishmusic wrote:If there are multiple boxes, I don't see why one couldn't be handed over to Malaysian Airlines. EDIT: It is also highly unlikely that the Ukrainian military is responsible. I mean, why would they be using anti-aircraft missiles if there haven't been any aircraft to shoot down in the first place?
Look, Russia has the most advanced anti-air weapon systems in the world. It is the pride of their military and a nice chunk of their defense budget goes into anti-air. Even if you discard all that, with the hardware and knowledge you need to have to be able to hit a moving object at 10km there is no way you don't know what the plane is.
You can't just go into Walmart and get something that can take down passenger planes, but something that can take one down is going to know if its military or civilian.
Whoever shot that plane down knew exactly what it was. Without a doubt.
|
On July 18 2014 02:30 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:17 ticklishmusic wrote:If there are multiple boxes, I don't see why one couldn't be handed over to Malaysian Airlines. EDIT: It is also highly unlikely that the Ukrainian military is responsible. I mean, why would they be using anti-aircraft missiles if there haven't been any aircraft to shoot down in the first place? Look, Russia has the most advanced anti-air weapon systems in the world. It is the pride of their military and a nice chunk of their defense budget goes into anti-air. Even if you discard all that, with the hardware and knowledge you need to have to be able to hit a moving object at 10km there is no way you don't know what the plane is. You can't just go into Walmart and get something that can take down passenger planes, but something that can take one down is going to know if its military or civilian. Whoever shot that plane down knew exactly what it was. Without a doubt.
If that were true, friendly fire would not be a thing. Your certainly belies an agenda.
|
On July 18 2014 02:30 zeo wrote:
Whoever shot that plane down knew exactly what it was. Without a doubt.
Its not fully controled military exercize conditions, you know that. Bombs were droped on hospitals, schools and ambasees when the swords were drawn.
|
On July 18 2014 02:27 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:19 Grettin wrote:On July 18 2014 02:18 gruff wrote:On July 18 2014 02:15 Roggay wrote:On July 18 2014 02:12 ahswtini wrote:
This is probably the end of Malaysian airlines too Probably not no? Why would you say that? Two high profile crashes in a year is a lot more than some airlines have gone away for. No idea if they will, just saying. And who's going to replace them? AirAsia? Sure, people might think once or twice before flying with them, but i really doubt they are going to disappear. Apparently they were in a pretty shitty situation before the first crash earlier this year. This may very well be the final blow to Malaysian Airlines as we know it. Will probably be bought out and rebranded tho.
Not necessarily, it is majority owned by the Malaysian government.
|
On July 18 2014 02:28 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:26 rd wrote:On July 18 2014 02:04 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 02:02 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:51 Roggay wrote:On July 18 2014 01:46 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2014 01:42 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:40 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
Can you remind me which of the two parties has been shooting down planes and helicopters for the last few months? Wait, your telling me the rebels don't have a functional airforce? Thats totally weird. I guess that explains why only one side has been shooting down flying stuff. More importantly it explains who shot down this plane. No it doesn't. edit: the anti-government forces simply do not have the hardware capable of taking down a plane at that altitude. Didnt they boast having such capabilities? Plus they did report shooting down a plane. And the kiev has no interest shooting at any plane, which can only be their own or russian (which they really have no interest in shooting down). You mean the same sources people in the last thread said were laughable propaganda? The Kiev military just got routed and completely collapsed south of Donetsk yesterday. With the tides turning in their favor the last thing they need is a civilian plane being shot down. Which is likely why they deleted the social media posts soon after the news was released. One thing is for sure, the plane did not fall from the sky for no reason. Exactly, I'm sure there will be an investigation (of course) and people can find out just what hit it, how, etc. Given the controversy surrounding the crash during a time of conflict, my expectations of any objective investigation without significant bias is slim. Both sides have an incentive to claim different results from an "investigation," regardless of whether or not they're legit. Rofl, if only there was some independent organization with a dog in this fight. Oh wait... Malaysian Airlines?
Blackboxes are in Russia, a party who most likely doesn't want news coming out that it was their weapons who shot down the plane. And to be honest, if malaysian airlines came out with their own investigation which claimed it was shot down by a Buk missile, Rebels and Russia are going to deny it left and right.
|
Yeah, surface to air missiles don't work like they do in video games. They don't give you the make an model of your target. Really all they can do is tell the difference between plane and empty sky.
|
|
|
Why would you fly above Eastern Ukraine today? It's an unnecessary risk and I don't understand why nobody thought about it before. Are there commercial flights above Syria too? I don't exactly know how does it work so can someone tell me why did they have to choose that particular route from Malaysia to Netherlands?
|
And what if America shot down that plane to have a reason to enter the conflict. Looks like McCain feels pretty concerned about it.
'If this is the result of separatist or Russian actions... there’s going to be hell to pay': John McCain warns of consequences as passenger jet carrying 295 'shot down' in Ukraine"
source
http://www.independent.co.uk/
Just saying why would the separatists or Russian shot down a commercial plane?
The normal altitude for a commercial flight is 11km // 33k feets, I know nothing about military weapon, but is that possible to shot down a plane that high with ground anti aircraft missile?
User was warned for this post
|
On July 18 2014 02:30 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:17 ticklishmusic wrote:If there are multiple boxes, I don't see why one couldn't be handed over to Malaysian Airlines. EDIT: It is also highly unlikely that the Ukrainian military is responsible. I mean, why would they be using anti-aircraft missiles if there haven't been any aircraft to shoot down in the first place? Look, Russia has the most advanced anti-air weapon systems in the world. It is the pride of their military and a nice chunk of their defense budget goes into anti-air. Even if you discard all that, with the hardware and knowledge you need to have to be able to hit a moving object at 10km there is no way you don't know what the plane is. You can't just go into Walmart and get something that can take down passenger planes, but something that can take one down is going to know if its military or civilian. Whoever shot that plane down knew exactly what it was. Without a doubt.
It takes some serious mental gymnastics to convince yourself that it's some big Ukrainian conspiracy to intentionally take down a comercial airliner just to frame the rebels.
|
On July 18 2014 02:35 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:28 Jormundr wrote:On July 18 2014 02:26 rd wrote:On July 18 2014 02:04 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 02:02 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:51 Roggay wrote:On July 18 2014 01:46 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2014 01:42 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Wait, your telling me the rebels don't have a functional airforce? Thats totally weird. I guess that explains why only one side has been shooting down flying stuff. More importantly it explains who shot down this plane. No it doesn't. edit: the anti-government forces simply do not have the hardware capable of taking down a plane at that altitude. Didnt they boast having such capabilities? Plus they did report shooting down a plane. And the kiev has no interest shooting at any plane, which can only be their own or russian (which they really have no interest in shooting down). You mean the same sources people in the last thread said were laughable propaganda? The Kiev military just got routed and completely collapsed south of Donetsk yesterday. With the tides turning in their favor the last thing they need is a civilian plane being shot down. Which is likely why they deleted the social media posts soon after the news was released. One thing is for sure, the plane did not fall from the sky for no reason. Exactly, I'm sure there will be an investigation (of course) and people can find out just what hit it, how, etc. Given the controversy surrounding the crash during a time of conflict, my expectations of any objective investigation without significant bias is slim. Both sides have an incentive to claim different results from an "investigation," regardless of whether or not they're legit. Rofl, if only there was some independent organization with a dog in this fight. Oh wait... Malaysian Airlines? Blackboxes are in Russia, a party who most likely doesn't want news coming out that it was their weapons who shot down the plane. And to be honest, if malaysian airlines came out with their own investigation which claimed it was shot down by a Buk missile, Rebels and Russia are going to deny it left and right.
The black boxes are not going to tell you a lot anyway. Its not like the plane misfunctionned, it was hit by a missile. What will be important is to find the pieces of the missile, and to analyse the satellite images to see from where it was fired.
|
On July 18 2014 02:28 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 02:26 rd wrote:On July 18 2014 02:04 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 02:02 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:51 Roggay wrote:On July 18 2014 01:46 zeo wrote:On July 18 2014 01:45 Nyxisto wrote:On July 18 2014 01:42 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 01:40 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
Can you remind me which of the two parties has been shooting down planes and helicopters for the last few months? Wait, your telling me the rebels don't have a functional airforce? Thats totally weird. I guess that explains why only one side has been shooting down flying stuff. More importantly it explains who shot down this plane. No it doesn't. edit: the anti-government forces simply do not have the hardware capable of taking down a plane at that altitude. Didnt they boast having such capabilities? Plus they did report shooting down a plane. And the kiev has no interest shooting at any plane, which can only be their own or russian (which they really have no interest in shooting down). You mean the same sources people in the last thread said were laughable propaganda? The Kiev military just got routed and completely collapsed south of Donetsk yesterday. With the tides turning in their favor the last thing they need is a civilian plane being shot down. Which is likely why they deleted the social media posts soon after the news was released. One thing is for sure, the plane did not fall from the sky for no reason. Exactly, I'm sure there will be an investigation (of course) and people can find out just what hit it, how, etc. Given the controversy surrounding the crash during a time of conflict, my expectations of any objective investigation without significant bias is slim. Both sides have an incentive to claim different results from an "investigation," regardless of whether or not they're legit. The only hope would be to have an external investigation, say from boeing.
The machine is from Boeing so they for sure have a reason to investigate to rule out malfunctions. MAS has a reason to investigate since they are responsible for the flight. Ukraine has an interest in investigating since it happened in their territory, but should be more interested in letting US investigate since they have the, hands down, best aircraft investigation capabilities.
I don't like the shipping of the black box to Moscow. They clearly have a horse in the race and they are not as likely to give US investigation rights given their current political relations.
|
|
|
On July 18 2014 02:39 iFU.pauline wrote:And what if America shot down that plane to have a reason to enter the conflict. Looks like McCain feels pretty concerned about it. 'If this is the result of separatist or Russian actions... there’s going to be hell to pay': John McCain warns of consequences as passenger jet carrying 295 'shot down' in Ukraine" source http://www.independent.co.uk/Just saying why would the separatists or Russian shot down a commercial plane? The normal altitude for a commercial flight is 11km // 33k feets, I know nothing about military weapon, but is that possible to shot down a plane that high with ground anti aircraft missile? User was warned for this post
I don't get it. Is that post sarcasm or?
|
On July 18 2014 02:17 ticklishmusic wrote:If there are multiple boxes, I don't see why one couldn't be handed over to Malaysian Airlines. EDIT: It is also highly unlikely that the Ukrainian military is responsible. I mean, why would they be using anti-aircraft missiles if there haven't been any aircraft to shoot down in the first place?
And it flew in ukraine airspace so long time. It came from west ukraine
|
I just read that the ukrainians had deployed a BUK system yesterday in Donetsk and another one today in Harkovo(spelling?).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
