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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
Godwin's law is silly anyway lol
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On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile?
yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it.
or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you.
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How wanting to impress the world can change a politician and reveal his insecurities...
From this: + Show Spoiler + to this: + Show Spoiler + because of a winter sports event in an otherwise very hot city of Sochi, awesome metamorphosis. Where they will set a borderline what's banned and what's acceptable? Somewhere between this: + Show Spoiler + and this + Show Spoiler +? If those executives just kept their mouths shut, the whole issue might never surface during the Olympiad, but now it will obviously spark tons of controversy. Good move, Russia.
BTW, "non-traditional sexual orientation" lol. The tradition goes as deep (cough cough pun) as to ancient Greece.
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On August 02 2013 08:09 LaZeRKiD45 wrote:
lol wow i keep reading these articles on how anti-gay Russia is........ if its not hurting or affecting you negativity, whats the big issue?
if this isnt a troll you might be the dumbest person Ive ever met. its prejudice and needs to be highlighted and protested in all its forms, if you dont get that go read a book orsomething.
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On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you.
I would like to support the opinion stated ever so eloquently by the contributor called LaContra. It is indeed not the homophobia of one man or possibly one government, it is the homophobia of a whole nation and it is but one part of an ingrained and integral part of the cultural make-up of Eastern European and Russian nations, one that is not going to disappear overnight based on a simple gesture from a nation not long ago considered the enemy and even now considered at best spoiled and liberal.
You may wish for a simple show of solidarity to an oppressed majority or for a show of protest against the Russian political system, however what you will be showing to the overwhelming majority of Russian people is simply that you consider your beliefs, motivations and ways of life better than theirs, you will be showing ingratitude and a bullish attitude. I am really sorry that I can not explain this better, but your wish for a sign of solidarity simply reads to me as childishly spitting in the face of your host (Russian people), because he is unable to accommodate your wish for profound change by a certain deadline.
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On August 07 2013 03:49 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. I would like to support the opinion stated ever so eloquently by the contributor called LaContra. It is indeed not the homophobia of one man or possibly one government, it is the homophobia of a whole nation and it is but one part of an ingrained and integral part of the cultural make-up of Eastern European and Russian nations, one that is not going to disappear overnight based on a simple gesture from a nation not long ago considered the enemy and even now considered at best spoiled and liberal. You may wish for a simple show of solidarity to an oppressed majority or for a show of protest against the Russian political system, however what you will be showing to the overwhelming majority of Russian people is simply that you consider your beliefs, motivations and ways of life better than theirs, you will be showing ingratitude and a bullish attitude. I am really sorry that I can not explain this better, but your wish for a sign of solidarity simply reads to me as childishly spitting in the face of your host (Russian people), because he is unable to accommodate your wish for profound change by a certain deadline.
I don't want a profound change by a certain deadline, I want them to stop actively moving backwards.
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On August 07 2013 03:54 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. I would like to support the opinion stated ever so eloquently by the contributor called LaContra. It is indeed not the homophobia of one man or possibly one government, it is the homophobia of a whole nation and it is but one part of an ingrained and integral part of the cultural make-up of Eastern European and Russian nations, one that is not going to disappear overnight based on a simple gesture from a nation not long ago considered the enemy and even now considered at best spoiled and liberal. You may wish for a simple show of solidarity to an oppressed majority or for a show of protest against the Russian political system, however what you will be showing to the overwhelming majority of Russian people is simply that you consider your beliefs, motivations and ways of life better than theirs, you will be showing ingratitude and a bullish attitude. I am really sorry that I can not explain this better, but your wish for a sign of solidarity simply reads to me as childishly spitting in the face of your host (Russian people), because he is unable to accommodate your wish for profound change by a certain deadline. I don't want a profound change by a certain deadline, I want them to stop actively moving backwards.
we can only observe, lets be optimistic. i wonder what more liberal-progressive-thinking nations were thinking when minorities were hanging on trees in united states, if there was social media, i'd imagine something similar to what many is saying about russia here. change did happen and i think it can happen to russia too, more likely than some other parts of the world. its a futile situation but if history indeed repeats itself, i think russia can overcome just as usa have in the general main stream sense....but it'll still take generations depending on who steps in power.
i dont think pointing fingers at russians help :/
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Discrimination is culture and needs to be defended! Who are we to tell the Russians they're wrong?!?
As if Russia collectively decided they wanted to be homophobic (nevermind Russian homosexuals...) In real politics laws do not always represent the will of an "overwhelming majority." People arguing there's no place to question Russian law, because it's Russia, and that's their culture... do you really expect to be taken seriously? I mean you could use the same logic for every awful instance of genocide/mass murder in history.
I can say if I was a gay athlete, I would have a bit of apprehension in traveling to a place where gay "propaganda" can land you in prison--it sounds like something drafted by Hitler. If the Olympic host has laws that create fear/apprehension or prevent athletes from attending, it's not worth at least questioning? Like people bitch about far less impactful things in sports, being genuinely afraid for the well-being of an athlete is at least worth discussing.
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On August 07 2013 04:18 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:54 ComaDose wrote:On August 07 2013 03:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. I would like to support the opinion stated ever so eloquently by the contributor called LaContra. It is indeed not the homophobia of one man or possibly one government, it is the homophobia of a whole nation and it is but one part of an ingrained and integral part of the cultural make-up of Eastern European and Russian nations, one that is not going to disappear overnight based on a simple gesture from a nation not long ago considered the enemy and even now considered at best spoiled and liberal. You may wish for a simple show of solidarity to an oppressed majority or for a show of protest against the Russian political system, however what you will be showing to the overwhelming majority of Russian people is simply that you consider your beliefs, motivations and ways of life better than theirs, you will be showing ingratitude and a bullish attitude. I am really sorry that I can not explain this better, but your wish for a sign of solidarity simply reads to me as childishly spitting in the face of your host (Russian people), because he is unable to accommodate your wish for profound change by a certain deadline. I don't want a profound change by a certain deadline, I want them to stop actively moving backwards. we can only observe, lets be optimistic. i wonder what more liberal-progressive-thinking nations were thinking when minorities were hanging on trees in united states, if there was social media, i'd imagine something similar to what many is saying about russia here. change did happen and i think it can happen to russia too, more likely than some other parts of the world. its a futile situation but if history indeed repeats itself, i think russia can overcome just as usa have in the general main stream sense....but it'll still take generations depending on who steps in power. i dont think pointing fingers at russians help :/
why would pointing out something wrong not help?
how were those hypothetical social media people of the past wrong for condemning racism?
dont advocate stepping back instead of expressing your opinion when you see injustice.
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I can't imagine the depressed mood at the Olympic Village.
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On August 07 2013 04:33 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 04:18 jinorazi wrote:On August 07 2013 03:54 ComaDose wrote:On August 07 2013 03:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. I would like to support the opinion stated ever so eloquently by the contributor called LaContra. It is indeed not the homophobia of one man or possibly one government, it is the homophobia of a whole nation and it is but one part of an ingrained and integral part of the cultural make-up of Eastern European and Russian nations, one that is not going to disappear overnight based on a simple gesture from a nation not long ago considered the enemy and even now considered at best spoiled and liberal. You may wish for a simple show of solidarity to an oppressed majority or for a show of protest against the Russian political system, however what you will be showing to the overwhelming majority of Russian people is simply that you consider your beliefs, motivations and ways of life better than theirs, you will be showing ingratitude and a bullish attitude. I am really sorry that I can not explain this better, but your wish for a sign of solidarity simply reads to me as childishly spitting in the face of your host (Russian people), because he is unable to accommodate your wish for profound change by a certain deadline. I don't want a profound change by a certain deadline, I want them to stop actively moving backwards. we can only observe, lets be optimistic. i wonder what more liberal-progressive-thinking nations were thinking when minorities were hanging on trees in united states, if there was social media, i'd imagine something similar to what many is saying about russia here. change did happen and i think it can happen to russia too, more likely than some other parts of the world. its a futile situation but if history indeed repeats itself, i think russia can overcome just as usa have in the general main stream sense....but it'll still take generations depending on who steps in power. i dont think pointing fingers at russians help :/ why would pointing out something wrong not help? how were those hypothetical social media people of the past wrong for condemning racism? dont advocate stepping back instead of expressing your opinion when you see injustice.
I almost wonder if Russia is attempting to avoid riots or other issues along those lines with their own people, rather than the athletes attending. There is part of me that is super upset about this, and there is part of me that makes knows it won't matter. The Olympics are beyond Russia to control once they start and if an athlete wears a rainbow arm band or says something, there is nothing Russia can do. What are they going to do, arrest the comparators and earn the wrath of every nation attending.
As I said before, good luck with that Russia. Once you light that torch, you are not stopping people from talking on camera.
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On August 07 2013 04:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 04:33 ComaDose wrote:On August 07 2013 04:18 jinorazi wrote:On August 07 2013 03:54 ComaDose wrote:On August 07 2013 03:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. I would like to support the opinion stated ever so eloquently by the contributor called LaContra. It is indeed not the homophobia of one man or possibly one government, it is the homophobia of a whole nation and it is but one part of an ingrained and integral part of the cultural make-up of Eastern European and Russian nations, one that is not going to disappear overnight based on a simple gesture from a nation not long ago considered the enemy and even now considered at best spoiled and liberal. You may wish for a simple show of solidarity to an oppressed majority or for a show of protest against the Russian political system, however what you will be showing to the overwhelming majority of Russian people is simply that you consider your beliefs, motivations and ways of life better than theirs, you will be showing ingratitude and a bullish attitude. I am really sorry that I can not explain this better, but your wish for a sign of solidarity simply reads to me as childishly spitting in the face of your host (Russian people), because he is unable to accommodate your wish for profound change by a certain deadline. I don't want a profound change by a certain deadline, I want them to stop actively moving backwards. we can only observe, lets be optimistic. i wonder what more liberal-progressive-thinking nations were thinking when minorities were hanging on trees in united states, if there was social media, i'd imagine something similar to what many is saying about russia here. change did happen and i think it can happen to russia too, more likely than some other parts of the world. its a futile situation but if history indeed repeats itself, i think russia can overcome just as usa have in the general main stream sense....but it'll still take generations depending on who steps in power. i dont think pointing fingers at russians help :/ why would pointing out something wrong not help? how were those hypothetical social media people of the past wrong for condemning racism? dont advocate stepping back instead of expressing your opinion when you see injustice. I almost wonder if Russia is attempting to avoid riots or other issues along those lines with their own people, rather than the athletes attending. There is part of me that is super upset about this, and there is part of me that makes knows it won't matter. The Olympics are beyond Russia to control once they start and if an athlete wears a rainbow arm band or says something, there is nothing Russia can do. What are they going to do, arrest the comparators and earn the wrath of every nation attending. As I said before, good luck with that Russia. Once you light that torch, you are not stopping people from talking on camera.
thats actually a good idea, i think athletes should where some subtle symbol to test russia. then again it could back fire. from what i hear this isnt just the government pushing this rule, the general public agrees with the government and those people might get upset seeing these athletes using this event to push the message they dont want to hear.
as for post before, i dont mind speaking opinion on how this is oppressive, but i was just pointing out that cussing out the russian people dont help, as some people like to do here. as in, its not like they had a choice in hating homosexuals, they're merely acting the way they're "suppose" to behave. and to them homosexuality is negative regardless how irrational or illogical that view may be, it goes against what they believe and the act of protecting what they believe to them is logical and rational. only my assumption though.
just saying, if people were able to automatically look past prejudice, looked everything neutral, be able to think in other people's shoes, the world wouldnt be the way it is (i think its improving but that just might be my naivety). since that isnt the case, we should treat it as such and look for solution per se within the confinements/conditions already set.
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On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you.
"Optimism is cowardice."-Oswald Spengler
You can know what's "right" or "decent" all you want. At the end of the day Putin doesn't really give a shit and he has power and you don't. I'm sick of having my words twisted into, "X is good because it can be taken advantage of by Y group."
That's not what I'm saying and I'm not making a moral judgment, I'm making an observation of what would be politically expedient for a given group. It wasn't what I said the first time, and it's not what I'm saying now. I'm being realistic. There's nothing can be done at the current juncture, at least there may come some benefit from it if the politics are played correctly. Is that really so hard to understand?
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On August 07 2013 05:45 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. "Optimism is cowardice."-Oswald Spengler You can know what's "right" or "decent" all you want. At the end of the day Putin doesn't really give a shit and he has power and you don't. I'm sick of having my words twisted into, "X is good because it can be taken advantage of by Y group." That's not what I'm saying and I'm not making a moral judgment, I'm making an observation of what would be politically expedient for a given group. It wasn't what I said the first time, and it's not what I'm saying now. I'm being realistic. There's nothing can be done at the current juncture, at least there may come some benefit from it if the politics are played correctly. Is that really so hard to understand?
"Russia leader do bad shit because power, so no point complaining about it because power. Instead imagine all the good that could come of it: for example if brainy gays emigrate, we can use their skills here."
Compelling argument for sure
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Somehow "might is right" seems more acceptable when it comes from a Ghostbuster, who knew?
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i wonder what more liberal-progressive-thinking nations were thinking when minorities were hanging on trees in united states,
back then lynching was the progressive way to kill minorities compared to the rest of the world yes including europe.
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On August 07 2013 05:45 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. "Optimism is cowardice."-Oswald Spengler You can know what's "right" or "decent" all you want. At the end of the day Putin doesn't really give a shit and he has power and you don't. I'm sick of having my words twisted into, "X is good because it can be taken advantage of by Y group." That's not what I'm saying and I'm not making a moral judgment, I'm making an observation of what would be politically expedient for a given group. It wasn't what I said the first time, and it's not what I'm saying now. I'm being realistic. There's nothing can be done at the current juncture, at least there may come some benefit from it if the politics are played correctly. Is that really so hard to understand?
no, its actually pretty easy to understand. Its just such a bullshit attitude.
"nothing can be changed, lets abuse it." Criticizing other governments is a totally legit and fine way to create pressure. And while Putin probably wont be affected to much by it, russais society might be. Also, its for sure better than doing nothing.
Oh, and please dont put a Oswald Spengler quote in your post. Not only can I read that one in your signature, but its also a Oswald Spengler quote.
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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
Such grants aren't really meant to incentivise birth, as far as I see it, more to help the family/child when it arrives and help the kids that have arrived be more productive both economically and otherwise in later life.
The cost of raising a child both in terms of care and attention and financial outlay dwarfs these incentives.
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On August 07 2013 06:06 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 05:45 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. "Optimism is cowardice."-Oswald Spengler You can know what's "right" or "decent" all you want. At the end of the day Putin doesn't really give a shit and he has power and you don't. I'm sick of having my words twisted into, "X is good because it can be taken advantage of by Y group." That's not what I'm saying and I'm not making a moral judgment, I'm making an observation of what would be politically expedient for a given group. It wasn't what I said the first time, and it's not what I'm saying now. I'm being realistic. There's nothing can be done at the current juncture, at least there may come some benefit from it if the politics are played correctly. Is that really so hard to understand? "Russia leader do bad shit because power, so no point complaining about it because power. Instead imagine all the good that could come of it: for example if brainy gays emigrate, we can use their skills here." Compelling argument for sure
What would you suggest? Because quite frankly all I'm hearing as an alternative is, "Let's whine louder and maybe the bad man will stop." That always works after all.
Nothing? Because that would be a wasted opportunity.
I suppose if a Russian were to make a case, that would be quite different, however to my knowledge you are not Russian and thus have no say over what occurs in Russia. At least until you are willing to invade over this, which I doubt. I suppose we could all pick up our proverbial "balls" and go home (boycott the Olympics) but what real good does that do?
I'm not really making an argument. I'm saying, there's a silver lining to every cloud and we can't actually DO anything about it, so let's look at some positives. Which apparently warrants condescending attacks and rebuttals.
This policy will likely not be going anywhere anytime soon, maybe it will force some homosexual Russians to move. If that's the case, why not be on the lookout for gay Russians with useful skills?
On August 07 2013 06:14 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 05:45 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. "Optimism is cowardice."-Oswald Spengler You can know what's "right" or "decent" all you want. At the end of the day Putin doesn't really give a shit and he has power and you don't. I'm sick of having my words twisted into, "X is good because it can be taken advantage of by Y group." That's not what I'm saying and I'm not making a moral judgment, I'm making an observation of what would be politically expedient for a given group. It wasn't what I said the first time, and it's not what I'm saying now. I'm being realistic. There's nothing can be done at the current juncture, at least there may come some benefit from it if the politics are played correctly. Is that really so hard to understand? no, its actually pretty easy to understand. Its just such a bullshit attitude. "nothing can be changed, lets abuse it." Criticizing other governments is a totally legit and fine way to create pressure. And while Putin probably wont be affected to much by it, russais society might be. Also, its for sure better than doing nothing. Oh, and please dont but a Oswald Spengler quote in your post. Not only can I read that one in your signature, but its also a Oswald Spengler quote.
Okay. It's a bullshit attitude. How?
We're not going to economically sanction Russia (they're too important), it's not even a small ruling elite as was the case in S. Africa (it's the whole society), and no one's going to go to war over it. So where are you? Flailing your arms and pretending that getting upset and telling people your upset is going to do something? Really?
Do you give a shit when Americans get flabbergasted at your lack of personal firearms? No. You defend (haha! get the joke? You can't because you don't have firearms!) your way of life because it works for you.
Do Americans care when European nations can demonstrate higher standards of living and superior public health with state run medicine? No, because our principles are different and, "lalalalala, my way of life!"
Sitting on your computer criticizing Russia DOES jack. Not that I don't condone it (the criticism), but actually thinking it does something is delusional unless you're Russian.
That's all I'm saying. So how is that bullshit?
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On August 07 2013 06:22 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 06:06 FallDownMarigold wrote:On August 07 2013 05:45 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. "Optimism is cowardice."-Oswald Spengler You can know what's "right" or "decent" all you want. At the end of the day Putin doesn't really give a shit and he has power and you don't. I'm sick of having my words twisted into, "X is good because it can be taken advantage of by Y group." That's not what I'm saying and I'm not making a moral judgment, I'm making an observation of what would be politically expedient for a given group. It wasn't what I said the first time, and it's not what I'm saying now. I'm being realistic. There's nothing can be done at the current juncture, at least there may come some benefit from it if the politics are played correctly. Is that really so hard to understand? "Russia leader do bad shit because power, so no point complaining about it because power. Instead imagine all the good that could come of it: for example if brainy gays emigrate, we can use their skills here." Compelling argument for sure What would you suggest? Because quite frankly all I'm hearing as an alternative is, "Let's whine louder and maybe the bad man will stop." That always works after all. Nothing? Because that would be a wasted opportunity. I suppose if a Russian were to make a case, that would be quite different, however to my knowledge you are not Russian and thus have no say over what occurs in Russia. At least until you are willing to invade over this, which I doubt. I suppose we could all pick up our proverbial "balls" and go home (boycott the Olympics) but what real good does that do? I'm not really making an argument. I'm saying, there's a silver lining to every cloud and we can't actually DO anything about it, so let's look at some positives. Which apparently warrants condescending attacks and rebuttals. This policy will likely not be going anywhere anytime soon, maybe it will force some homosexual Russians to move. If that's the case, why not be on the lookout for gay Russians with useful skills? Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 06:14 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 05:45 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:39 Paljas wrote:On August 07 2013 03:20 Kimaker wrote:On August 07 2013 03:08 qotsager wrote:On August 07 2013 01:34 Kimaker wrote:
It's not like the law is actively pursuing people and putting them in camps for being gay, it's just prohibiting those annoying parades.
even IF that law "only" does that, note it is formulated extremely vaguely and therefor might turn into a convenient excuse for doing just what you said it was not supposed to, there is some really messed up shit going on (as several people have mentioned), directed against the homosexual community, that needs to stop. and if you deem those parades annoying, we should probably outrule any kind of parade ever, cause someone is gonna be annoyed by them. Oh God...shouldn't have written anything.... I'm not saying this from the perspective of "This is what I believe". I'm framing it in terms of Russian sovereignty and different cultural values. What would you have us do? Drive tanks into Russia to protect gay rights? Boycott the Olympics? (never gonna happen in this political climate). If you read my first post all the way through I'm less concerned with Russia and more concerned with how this could be taken advantage of by Western nations (particularly the US) since being upset is just...I don't know, it feels futile? yeah, obama should thank putin for discriminating gays, becasue the USA can take advantage of it. or, you know, he could act like a decent human being and be upset. even tho this feels futile to you. "Optimism is cowardice."-Oswald Spengler You can know what's "right" or "decent" all you want. At the end of the day Putin doesn't really give a shit and he has power and you don't. I'm sick of having my words twisted into, "X is good because it can be taken advantage of by Y group." That's not what I'm saying and I'm not making a moral judgment, I'm making an observation of what would be politically expedient for a given group. It wasn't what I said the first time, and it's not what I'm saying now. I'm being realistic. There's nothing can be done at the current juncture, at least there may come some benefit from it if the politics are played correctly. Is that really so hard to understand? no, its actually pretty easy to understand. Its just such a bullshit attitude. "nothing can be changed, lets abuse it." Criticizing other governments is a totally legit and fine way to create pressure. And while Putin probably wont be affected to much by it, russais society might be. Also, its for sure better than doing nothing. Oh, and please dont but a Oswald Spengler quote in your post. Not only can I read that one in your signature, but its also a Oswald Spengler quote. Okay. It's a bullshit attitude. How? We're not going to economically sanction Russia (they're too important), it's not even a small ruling elite as was the case in S. Africa (it's the whole society), and no one's going to go to war over it. So where are you? Flailing your arms and pretending that getting upset and telling people your upset is going to do something? Really? Do you give a shit when Americans get flabbergasted at your lack of personal firearms? No. You defend (haha! get the joke? You can't because you don't have firearms!) your way of life because it works for you. Do Americans care when European nations can demonstrate higher standards of living and superior public health with state run medicine? No, because our principles are different and, "lalalalala, my way of life!" Sitting on your computer criticizing Russia DOES jack. Not that I don't condone it (the criticism), but actually thinking it does something is delusional unless you're Russian. That's all I'm saying. So how is that bullshit?
So you are saying we shouldn't be upset or angry because it doesn't accomplish anything? Does your arguing with us on the subject make us less likely to argue? No, it does not. It does not make us less likely to discuss the matter. However, it does derail the discussion.
At the end of the day, Russia can puff it's chest about its anti gay laws, but they will won't do much once the games start. If the every US team walks out rainbows on their arms and gay pride pins, Russia isn't going to do shit about it. Because at the end of the day, they are as powerless to stop our athletes from protesting and we are to stop them from passing stupid laws.
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