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On July 28 2013 02:56 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 02:50 Mothra wrote:On July 28 2013 02:42 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:23 ZenithM wrote:On July 28 2013 00:25 KwarK wrote:On July 27 2013 23:52 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:35 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:20 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:17 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
no one is defending anything. all i'm saying is: go there, screw them over (at least one generation would be screwed over; i'd say 2 - 3 generations to be generous), say i'm sorry, throw money at them, wait untill their believes = your believes, then take pride in the fact that who had the power won. it's how shit works.
what constitutes freedom, comes from a set of beliefs. the freedom idea changes with said believes.
you have been indoctrinated too. So what are you suggesting? My indoctrination wherein cutting little girls is unacceptable is equivalent to a different indoctrination where cutting little girls is just fine? it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins. if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. OK, so? What exactly are you trying to argue? that winners don't need justification and that playing the vigilante card, is just disguised hypocrisy. On July 27 2013 23:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. That seems off topic, nobody's talking about going to war. Advocacy is not to be dismissed... I guess you can "win" with pressure but yeah... Not sure what your angle is. ideological wars are the bloodiest and this is what we are doing here. mine is right, yours is wrong so let's see who wins. Your argument is morally bankrupt, you are advocating the abdication of rational judgement, the thing that makes us better than animals, in favour of ideological passivity. You can bitch all you like about how it's all subjective and the winner decides what is normal and good but it's not true, maybe not everything I believe is right and true and good but I'm damn sure that my belief that you shouldn't cut off the clitoris of girls and sew their vaginas shut isn't one of them. Sure enough to impose my beliefs on others who disagree. People disagree all the time but that doesn't mean that there aren't right answers, it just means some people are dumb. What's worse than the dumb people though are people like you who have so little conviction that they'd rather see evil go on in front of them than take a stance, at least the dumb people don't know they're dumb, you claim to look at all the evidence and yet can't come to a conclusion. Assuming that every human being can use "Rational judgement" to come up with the same conclusion is flawed anyway. In those countries, they're not using the same premises as you so they won't get to the same conclusion (that "FGM is bad"). For example, over there religious dogma is much more powerful than in western countries and can be the basis for a "reasoned" argument ("God wants A, hence B" is perfectly fine), which is kind of inconceivable for you. So I agree with xMZ that in the end it comes down to a power struggle between cultures. If you want your "right thing" to prevail, fight and impose it on others. And btw, there isn't really anything to discuss or debate in this thread, I'm sure nobody here actually support the practice :D. Good OP nonetheless, informative at least. The fact here is that there is no real "actual right." This is all based on perception. Zenith, you are very right to point out cultural differences, I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I have to quote your comment because of how on point it is. The U.N. exists in a Western way, whereas these countries don't. The differences because of this make us think the action is barbaric, which isn't the case for a lot of the people taking part in it. The process is slowly dying, for various reasons, and while I don't agree with it, we as westerners have no place telling other people that what they are doing is "objectively bad" even if we find the process detestable. So there is nothing objectively wrong with rape or murder either? The only bad thing about them is the possibility of getting caught? Let's throw out the worst things people can do to each other and say they are vaguely related to the topic at hand! No. There is a difference between a ritual that is accepted by a group of people as necessary for a women, one that the women in the area consent to (barring any of the bullshit "brainwashing" talk that people seem to think is any different than the cultures they live in) and someone raping a women, something she doesn't consent to at all. People consent to scarration all the time, or to labia/clitoris rings or piercings in western society, but I'm guessing that's all fine and dandy because it isn't called mutilation is it Mothra.
Consent is a moot point when it's children (even babies) that are being subjected to the practice.
The women only form an opinion on the subject and subsequently "consent" years after actually being subjected to it. If you ask the girls that are yet to be put under the blade, I'm pretty sure most would rather choose not to endure the pain.
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On July 28 2013 02:56 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 02:50 Mothra wrote:On July 28 2013 02:42 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:23 ZenithM wrote:On July 28 2013 00:25 KwarK wrote:On July 27 2013 23:52 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:35 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:20 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:17 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
no one is defending anything. all i'm saying is: go there, screw them over (at least one generation would be screwed over; i'd say 2 - 3 generations to be generous), say i'm sorry, throw money at them, wait untill their believes = your believes, then take pride in the fact that who had the power won. it's how shit works.
what constitutes freedom, comes from a set of beliefs. the freedom idea changes with said believes.
you have been indoctrinated too. So what are you suggesting? My indoctrination wherein cutting little girls is unacceptable is equivalent to a different indoctrination where cutting little girls is just fine? it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins. if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. OK, so? What exactly are you trying to argue? that winners don't need justification and that playing the vigilante card, is just disguised hypocrisy. On July 27 2013 23:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. That seems off topic, nobody's talking about going to war. Advocacy is not to be dismissed... I guess you can "win" with pressure but yeah... Not sure what your angle is. ideological wars are the bloodiest and this is what we are doing here. mine is right, yours is wrong so let's see who wins. Your argument is morally bankrupt, you are advocating the abdication of rational judgement, the thing that makes us better than animals, in favour of ideological passivity. You can bitch all you like about how it's all subjective and the winner decides what is normal and good but it's not true, maybe not everything I believe is right and true and good but I'm damn sure that my belief that you shouldn't cut off the clitoris of girls and sew their vaginas shut isn't one of them. Sure enough to impose my beliefs on others who disagree. People disagree all the time but that doesn't mean that there aren't right answers, it just means some people are dumb. What's worse than the dumb people though are people like you who have so little conviction that they'd rather see evil go on in front of them than take a stance, at least the dumb people don't know they're dumb, you claim to look at all the evidence and yet can't come to a conclusion. Assuming that every human being can use "Rational judgement" to come up with the same conclusion is flawed anyway. In those countries, they're not using the same premises as you so they won't get to the same conclusion (that "FGM is bad"). For example, over there religious dogma is much more powerful than in western countries and can be the basis for a "reasoned" argument ("God wants A, hence B" is perfectly fine), which is kind of inconceivable for you. So I agree with xMZ that in the end it comes down to a power struggle between cultures. If you want your "right thing" to prevail, fight and impose it on others. And btw, there isn't really anything to discuss or debate in this thread, I'm sure nobody here actually support the practice :D. Good OP nonetheless, informative at least. The fact here is that there is no real "actual right." This is all based on perception. Zenith, you are very right to point out cultural differences, I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I have to quote your comment because of how on point it is. The U.N. exists in a Western way, whereas these countries don't. The differences because of this make us think the action is barbaric, which isn't the case for a lot of the people taking part in it. The process is slowly dying, for various reasons, and while I don't agree with it, we as westerners have no place telling other people that what they are doing is "objectively bad" even if we find the process detestable. So there is nothing objectively wrong with rape or murder either? The only bad thing about them is the possibility of getting caught? Let's throw out the worst things people can do to each other and say they are vaguely related to the topic at hand! No. There is a difference between a ritual that is accepted by a group of people as necessary for a women, one that the women in the area consent to (barring any of the bullshit "brainwashing" talk that people seem to think is any different than the cultures they live in) and someone raping a women, something she doesn't consent to at all. People consent to scarration all the time, or to labia/clitoris rings or piercings in western society, but I'm guessing that's all fine and dandy because it isn't called mutilation is it Mothra.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation
Maybe you should read up. Yeah, I'm sure those toddlers are consenting to their genitals being mutilated. Nobody really cares if a person wants to get a clitoral piercing, or if someone wants to have their clitoris removed; they can go to a professional/hospital and get that stuff setup. What people care about is when permanent damage, which drastically affects one's sexuality, is made a cultural or religious right of passage. I don't understand how anyone can actually think widespread FGM is anything like the few adult women who elect to get labia/clitoris rings. First off, labia/clitoris rings aren't the same thing as cutting off the entire organ. Secondly, FGM is normally performed without anesthetic on prepubescent girls. How the fuck is that not incredibly abusive? Yeah, I know everyone kinda permits male circumcision, but the defense for it is usually something like "well, it doesn't really change much other than aesthetics." Well, FGM has no such defense (and I don't think the male circumcision defense is good anyway, FWIW) because it changes a LOT about sexual experiences. In terms of how it affects a woman's libido/pleasure from sex, it's probably equivalent to cutting off a man's testicles (though castration has many more side effects than just loss of libido, of course). I can't even believe that there are people who think that this is some sort of Western superiority complex.
They literally make it so that little girls are incapable of ever enjoying sex with anyone for the rest of their lives. How is this defensible?
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On July 28 2013 02:56 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 02:50 Mothra wrote:On July 28 2013 02:42 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:23 ZenithM wrote:On July 28 2013 00:25 KwarK wrote:On July 27 2013 23:52 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:35 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:20 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:17 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
no one is defending anything. all i'm saying is: go there, screw them over (at least one generation would be screwed over; i'd say 2 - 3 generations to be generous), say i'm sorry, throw money at them, wait untill their believes = your believes, then take pride in the fact that who had the power won. it's how shit works.
what constitutes freedom, comes from a set of beliefs. the freedom idea changes with said believes.
you have been indoctrinated too. So what are you suggesting? My indoctrination wherein cutting little girls is unacceptable is equivalent to a different indoctrination where cutting little girls is just fine? it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins. if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. OK, so? What exactly are you trying to argue? that winners don't need justification and that playing the vigilante card, is just disguised hypocrisy. On July 27 2013 23:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. That seems off topic, nobody's talking about going to war. Advocacy is not to be dismissed... I guess you can "win" with pressure but yeah... Not sure what your angle is. ideological wars are the bloodiest and this is what we are doing here. mine is right, yours is wrong so let's see who wins. Your argument is morally bankrupt, you are advocating the abdication of rational judgement, the thing that makes us better than animals, in favour of ideological passivity. You can bitch all you like about how it's all subjective and the winner decides what is normal and good but it's not true, maybe not everything I believe is right and true and good but I'm damn sure that my belief that you shouldn't cut off the clitoris of girls and sew their vaginas shut isn't one of them. Sure enough to impose my beliefs on others who disagree. People disagree all the time but that doesn't mean that there aren't right answers, it just means some people are dumb. What's worse than the dumb people though are people like you who have so little conviction that they'd rather see evil go on in front of them than take a stance, at least the dumb people don't know they're dumb, you claim to look at all the evidence and yet can't come to a conclusion. Assuming that every human being can use "Rational judgement" to come up with the same conclusion is flawed anyway. In those countries, they're not using the same premises as you so they won't get to the same conclusion (that "FGM is bad"). For example, over there religious dogma is much more powerful than in western countries and can be the basis for a "reasoned" argument ("God wants A, hence B" is perfectly fine), which is kind of inconceivable for you. So I agree with xMZ that in the end it comes down to a power struggle between cultures. If you want your "right thing" to prevail, fight and impose it on others. And btw, there isn't really anything to discuss or debate in this thread, I'm sure nobody here actually support the practice :D. Good OP nonetheless, informative at least. The fact here is that there is no real "actual right." This is all based on perception. Zenith, you are very right to point out cultural differences, I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I have to quote your comment because of how on point it is. The U.N. exists in a Western way, whereas these countries don't. The differences because of this make us think the action is barbaric, which isn't the case for a lot of the people taking part in it. The process is slowly dying, for various reasons, and while I don't agree with it, we as westerners have no place telling other people that what they are doing is "objectively bad" even if we find the process detestable. So there is nothing objectively wrong with rape or murder either? The only bad thing about them is the possibility of getting caught? Let's throw out the worst things people can do to each other and say they are vaguely related to the topic at hand! No. There is a difference between a ritual that is accepted by a group of people as necessary for a women, one that the women in the area consent to (barring any of the bullshit "brainwashing" talk that people seem to think is any different than the cultures they live in) and someone raping a women, something she doesn't consent to at all. People consent to scarration all the time, or to labia/clitoris rings or piercings in western society, but I'm guessing that's all fine and dandy because it isn't called mutilation is it Mothra.
Sex and mutilation of a sexual organ are pretty closely related, and there's just as much consent in FGM on a child as there is in rape.
But since the lady down the road is totally fine with it because she also suffered through it, it's totally okay to do and if you try to disagree you're xenophobic scum who's trying to insert American propaganda into their innocent cultural mores of hacking apart genitals. Just like how they're trying to shut down other places AIDs prevention rituals by taking away their virgin girls (and it's not rape because it's culture accepted by some people in the general vicinity of the not-crime).
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Just went over this in my human sexuality course. theres a fine line between culture and torture and that is whats going on here.
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United States41936 Posts
On July 28 2013 02:56 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 02:50 Mothra wrote:On July 28 2013 02:42 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:23 ZenithM wrote:On July 28 2013 00:25 KwarK wrote:On July 27 2013 23:52 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:35 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:20 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:17 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
no one is defending anything. all i'm saying is: go there, screw them over (at least one generation would be screwed over; i'd say 2 - 3 generations to be generous), say i'm sorry, throw money at them, wait untill their believes = your believes, then take pride in the fact that who had the power won. it's how shit works.
what constitutes freedom, comes from a set of beliefs. the freedom idea changes with said believes.
you have been indoctrinated too. So what are you suggesting? My indoctrination wherein cutting little girls is unacceptable is equivalent to a different indoctrination where cutting little girls is just fine? it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins. if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. OK, so? What exactly are you trying to argue? that winners don't need justification and that playing the vigilante card, is just disguised hypocrisy. On July 27 2013 23:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. That seems off topic, nobody's talking about going to war. Advocacy is not to be dismissed... I guess you can "win" with pressure but yeah... Not sure what your angle is. ideological wars are the bloodiest and this is what we are doing here. mine is right, yours is wrong so let's see who wins. Your argument is morally bankrupt, you are advocating the abdication of rational judgement, the thing that makes us better than animals, in favour of ideological passivity. You can bitch all you like about how it's all subjective and the winner decides what is normal and good but it's not true, maybe not everything I believe is right and true and good but I'm damn sure that my belief that you shouldn't cut off the clitoris of girls and sew their vaginas shut isn't one of them. Sure enough to impose my beliefs on others who disagree. People disagree all the time but that doesn't mean that there aren't right answers, it just means some people are dumb. What's worse than the dumb people though are people like you who have so little conviction that they'd rather see evil go on in front of them than take a stance, at least the dumb people don't know they're dumb, you claim to look at all the evidence and yet can't come to a conclusion. Assuming that every human being can use "Rational judgement" to come up with the same conclusion is flawed anyway. In those countries, they're not using the same premises as you so they won't get to the same conclusion (that "FGM is bad"). For example, over there religious dogma is much more powerful than in western countries and can be the basis for a "reasoned" argument ("God wants A, hence B" is perfectly fine), which is kind of inconceivable for you. So I agree with xMZ that in the end it comes down to a power struggle between cultures. If you want your "right thing" to prevail, fight and impose it on others. And btw, there isn't really anything to discuss or debate in this thread, I'm sure nobody here actually support the practice :D. Good OP nonetheless, informative at least. The fact here is that there is no real "actual right." This is all based on perception. Zenith, you are very right to point out cultural differences, I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I have to quote your comment because of how on point it is. The U.N. exists in a Western way, whereas these countries don't. The differences because of this make us think the action is barbaric, which isn't the case for a lot of the people taking part in it. The process is slowly dying, for various reasons, and while I don't agree with it, we as westerners have no place telling other people that what they are doing is "objectively bad" even if we find the process detestable. So there is nothing objectively wrong with rape or murder either? The only bad thing about them is the possibility of getting caught? Let's throw out the worst things people can do to each other and say they are vaguely related to the topic at hand! No. There is a difference between a ritual that is accepted by a group of people as necessary for a women, one that the women in the area consent to (barring any of the bullshit "brainwashing" talk that people seem to think is any different than the cultures they live in) and someone raping a women, something she doesn't consent to at all. People consent to scarration all the time, or to labia/clitoris rings or piercings in western society, but I'm guessing that's all fine and dandy because it isn't called mutilation is it Mothra.
There are women who argue to this day that marital rape is acceptable and that a women's body belongs to her husband and if the husband wants to have sex with her then he has the right to, even if she does not consent to it. That doesn't make it less rape. You're using consent wrong.
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I'm not a big fan of doing anything, to anyone with out consent. That being said, I really feel like the 'Prime Directive" from Star Trek should be implemented when countries, and cultures are dealing with each other. Just because I think something is wrong, doesn't make it wrong. Many cultures, do many things to their kids that some people think are crazy.
Scarification Rituals
+ Show Spoiler +
Piercings
+ Show Spoiler +
Ritual Penis Cutting
+ Show Spoiler +
These things are done with out consent, just like Male Circumcision in the west, which some people think is weird too.
I would kill someone if they tried to do this to circumcise my daughter, but I would also do the same if they tried to circumcise my son.
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Just because I think something is wrong, doesn't make it wrong.
Erm, then why do you think it's wrong? If you don't have a good reason, then why do you think it's wrong? If you do have a good reason, why doesn't your reason apply to people living outside of the West?
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On July 28 2013 04:44 Shiori wrote:Erm, then why do you think it's wrong? If you don't have a good reason, then why do you think it's wrong? If you do have a good reason, why doesn't your reason apply to people living outside of the West?
Because I don't think my own personal beliefs should have to be followed, or believed, and I don't think it's right to try and force them on anyone else.
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I live in Sweden and have done so for several years now. I have learnt through media and politicians that all cultures are equal and should never be questioned. Thus i feel that if these people really want to keep going like they have for centuries then by all means let them. Who are we to decide which cultures are good or bad?
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Seriously? Has this thread devolved into having cultures trump the general well-being of humans again?
Morals can be reasoned and 100% rational. FGM is as it says, mutilation without consent. There's no health benefits whatsoever, instead it's a deadly practice. The only supposed benefits are those created by the society around them.
If we look at it from a purely scientific view, thus reasoned and 100% rational we can say that it's morally unacceptable. Only when we accept irrational thoughts such as those created by the society around them into the equation we reach a point of what you're arguing, of morality being variable between persons. However, you're at the same time admitting that it's not an objective point of view. That in my opinion is why such a morality is simply faulty, and more reasoned morals are objectively better.
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Edit: Nevermind, I won't get baited by the science troll.
And again, I don't know who you're arguing with, I don't think anybody here thinks that FGM is morally right. The point is: is it our place (us being, Western societies I guess?) to force them to stop that shit?
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On July 28 2013 01:25 Falling wrote:
I don't your angle xmz. What are you getting at? That our outrage is only worth something if it is effacious through the means of war? That we should not condemn something unless we mean to conquer, but then we are just another Machiavellian imperialist?
In your mind, is there nothing in between defending the practice due to cultural relativism and an invasion over ideology?
ideally speaking, you should educate them, present them with a (different/better) choice, then let them make the call. in under no circumstances you are to apply pressure on their governments and force them to pass laws banning shit, just because your magic bucket full of objective judgments and reasons, told you so.
you can be outraged as much as you want, until you turn all blue and purple. it's inconsequential.
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On July 28 2013 04:38 dotHead wrote:I'm not a big fan of doing anything, to anyone with out consent. That being said, I really feel like the 'Prime Directive" from Star Trek should be implemented when countries, and cultures are dealing with each other. Just because I think something is wrong, doesn't make it wrong. Many cultures, do many things to their kids that some people think are crazy. Scarification Rituals + Show Spoiler +Piercings + Show Spoiler +Ritual Penis Cutting + Show Spoiler +These things are done with out consent, just like Male Circumcision in the west, which some people think is weird too. I would kill someone if they tried to do this to circumcise my daughter, but I would also do the same if they tried to circumcise my son.
The prime directive isn't applicable here because they aren't a different species. They're humans just like you and me.
On July 28 2013 05:23 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: Nevermind, I won't get baited by the science troll.
And again, I don't know who you're arguing with, I don't think anybody here thinks that FGM is morally right. The point is: is it our place (us being, Western societies I guess?) to force them to stop that shit?
Why do you need to label yourself as western? Why not just accept that this is a moral, humanist issue that needs no nationalism or cultural relativism getting in the way?
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On July 28 2013 05:23 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: Nevermind, I won't get baited by the science troll.
And again, I don't know who you're arguing with, I don't think anybody here thinks that FGM is morally right. The point is: is it our place (us being, Western societies I guess?) to tell them to stop that shit?
None in particular.
As to your last point, why the heck do you involve western society into this, it's never been about that. If one argues from facts, do we ignore those facts simply because he's from a western society and blame him for cultural imperialism?
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Assuming that "this is objectively wrong", what now?
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On July 28 2013 03:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 02:56 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:50 Mothra wrote:On July 28 2013 02:42 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:23 ZenithM wrote:On July 28 2013 00:25 KwarK wrote:On July 27 2013 23:52 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:35 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:20 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
So what are you suggesting? My indoctrination wherein cutting little girls is unacceptable is equivalent to a different indoctrination where cutting little girls is just fine? it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins. if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. OK, so? What exactly are you trying to argue? that winners don't need justification and that playing the vigilante card, is just disguised hypocrisy. On July 27 2013 23:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. That seems off topic, nobody's talking about going to war. Advocacy is not to be dismissed... I guess you can "win" with pressure but yeah... Not sure what your angle is. ideological wars are the bloodiest and this is what we are doing here. mine is right, yours is wrong so let's see who wins. Your argument is morally bankrupt, you are advocating the abdication of rational judgement, the thing that makes us better than animals, in favour of ideological passivity. You can bitch all you like about how it's all subjective and the winner decides what is normal and good but it's not true, maybe not everything I believe is right and true and good but I'm damn sure that my belief that you shouldn't cut off the clitoris of girls and sew their vaginas shut isn't one of them. Sure enough to impose my beliefs on others who disagree. People disagree all the time but that doesn't mean that there aren't right answers, it just means some people are dumb. What's worse than the dumb people though are people like you who have so little conviction that they'd rather see evil go on in front of them than take a stance, at least the dumb people don't know they're dumb, you claim to look at all the evidence and yet can't come to a conclusion. Assuming that every human being can use "Rational judgement" to come up with the same conclusion is flawed anyway. In those countries, they're not using the same premises as you so they won't get to the same conclusion (that "FGM is bad"). For example, over there religious dogma is much more powerful than in western countries and can be the basis for a "reasoned" argument ("God wants A, hence B" is perfectly fine), which is kind of inconceivable for you. So I agree with xMZ that in the end it comes down to a power struggle between cultures. If you want your "right thing" to prevail, fight and impose it on others. And btw, there isn't really anything to discuss or debate in this thread, I'm sure nobody here actually support the practice :D. Good OP nonetheless, informative at least. The fact here is that there is no real "actual right." This is all based on perception. Zenith, you are very right to point out cultural differences, I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I have to quote your comment because of how on point it is. The U.N. exists in a Western way, whereas these countries don't. The differences because of this make us think the action is barbaric, which isn't the case for a lot of the people taking part in it. The process is slowly dying, for various reasons, and while I don't agree with it, we as westerners have no place telling other people that what they are doing is "objectively bad" even if we find the process detestable. So there is nothing objectively wrong with rape or murder either? The only bad thing about them is the possibility of getting caught? Let's throw out the worst things people can do to each other and say they are vaguely related to the topic at hand! No. There is a difference between a ritual that is accepted by a group of people as necessary for a women, one that the women in the area consent to (barring any of the bullshit "brainwashing" talk that people seem to think is any different than the cultures they live in) and someone raping a women, something she doesn't consent to at all. People consent to scarration all the time, or to labia/clitoris rings or piercings in western society, but I'm guessing that's all fine and dandy because it isn't called mutilation is it Mothra. There are women who argue to this day that marital rape is acceptable and that a women's body belongs to her husband and if the husband wants to have sex with her then he has the right to, even if she does not consent to it. That doesn't make it less rape. You're using consent wrong.
That's not marital rape. Not wanting to but doing it anyway without compulsion is giving consent. It may be stupid and wrong in your eyes but it is not withholding consent.
Not wanting to and your husband threatens you for not doing your wifely duties (or whatever) or physically overpowers you would be no consent and thus rape.
"I don't want to but I'll do it anyway" is consent. "I don't want to and I won't" and then being compelled to through threats or violence is not consent.
You're using consent wrong.
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Wow, I think this is the one thread on the internet about FGM that hasn't devolved into talking about circumcision. Well done TL.
On July 28 2013 05:34 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:23 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: Nevermind, I won't get baited by the science troll.
And again, I don't know who you're arguing with, I don't think anybody here thinks that FGM is morally right. The point is: is it our place (us being, Western societies I guess?) to tell them to stop that shit? None in particular. As to your last point, why the heck do you involve western society into this, it's never been about that. If one argues from facts, do we ignore those facts simply because he's from a western society and blame him for cultural imperialism?
I'd say yes, this happens quite frequently.
It kind of reminds me of a quote from General Sir Charles Napier about the practice of Sati where widows are burned on their husbands funeral pyres:
This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.
This technically is what "cultural imperialists" do. Not to say that we shouldn't do it. I'm just saying there are complications. Which is why we haven't fixed it yet.
On July 28 2013 05:43 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 03:59 KwarK wrote:On July 28 2013 02:56 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:50 Mothra wrote:On July 28 2013 02:42 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:23 ZenithM wrote:On July 28 2013 00:25 KwarK wrote:On July 27 2013 23:52 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:35 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. OK, so? What exactly are you trying to argue? that winners don't need justification and that playing the vigilante card, is just disguised hypocrisy. On July 27 2013 23:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. That seems off topic, nobody's talking about going to war. Advocacy is not to be dismissed... I guess you can "win" with pressure but yeah... Not sure what your angle is. ideological wars are the bloodiest and this is what we are doing here. mine is right, yours is wrong so let's see who wins. Your argument is morally bankrupt, you are advocating the abdication of rational judgement, the thing that makes us better than animals, in favour of ideological passivity. You can bitch all you like about how it's all subjective and the winner decides what is normal and good but it's not true, maybe not everything I believe is right and true and good but I'm damn sure that my belief that you shouldn't cut off the clitoris of girls and sew their vaginas shut isn't one of them. Sure enough to impose my beliefs on others who disagree. People disagree all the time but that doesn't mean that there aren't right answers, it just means some people are dumb. What's worse than the dumb people though are people like you who have so little conviction that they'd rather see evil go on in front of them than take a stance, at least the dumb people don't know they're dumb, you claim to look at all the evidence and yet can't come to a conclusion. Assuming that every human being can use "Rational judgement" to come up with the same conclusion is flawed anyway. In those countries, they're not using the same premises as you so they won't get to the same conclusion (that "FGM is bad"). For example, over there religious dogma is much more powerful than in western countries and can be the basis for a "reasoned" argument ("God wants A, hence B" is perfectly fine), which is kind of inconceivable for you. So I agree with xMZ that in the end it comes down to a power struggle between cultures. If you want your "right thing" to prevail, fight and impose it on others. And btw, there isn't really anything to discuss or debate in this thread, I'm sure nobody here actually support the practice :D. Good OP nonetheless, informative at least. The fact here is that there is no real "actual right." This is all based on perception. Zenith, you are very right to point out cultural differences, I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I have to quote your comment because of how on point it is. The U.N. exists in a Western way, whereas these countries don't. The differences because of this make us think the action is barbaric, which isn't the case for a lot of the people taking part in it. The process is slowly dying, for various reasons, and while I don't agree with it, we as westerners have no place telling other people that what they are doing is "objectively bad" even if we find the process detestable. So there is nothing objectively wrong with rape or murder either? The only bad thing about them is the possibility of getting caught? Let's throw out the worst things people can do to each other and say they are vaguely related to the topic at hand! No. There is a difference between a ritual that is accepted by a group of people as necessary for a women, one that the women in the area consent to (barring any of the bullshit "brainwashing" talk that people seem to think is any different than the cultures they live in) and someone raping a women, something she doesn't consent to at all. People consent to scarration all the time, or to labia/clitoris rings or piercings in western society, but I'm guessing that's all fine and dandy because it isn't called mutilation is it Mothra. There are women who argue to this day that marital rape is acceptable and that a women's body belongs to her husband and if the husband wants to have sex with her then he has the right to, even if she does not consent to it. That doesn't make it less rape. You're using consent wrong. That's not marital rape. Not wanting to but doing it anyway without compulsion is giving consent. Not wanting to and your husband threatens you for not doing your wifely duties (or whatever) or physically overpowers you would be no consent and thus rape. "I don't want to but I'll do it anyway" is consent. "I don't want to and I won't" and then being compelled to through threats or violence is not consent. You're using consent wrong.
He's not using consent wrong. You just took a completely ridiculous interpretation of what he said.
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He's not using consent wrong. You just took a completely ridiculous interpretation of what he said.
Nope. You're just saying something that's completely ridiculous because you don't like what I said.
It boggles the mind that people can think that a wholly internal decision can be characterized as one where consent is absent. Husband wants sex; wife doesn't but with no compulsion from him, because of her own beliefs, has sex with him. Where is the lack of consent? She decided to consent because of an internally felt obligation. Her husband is not controlling her decision-making. She is.
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On July 28 2013 05:43 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 03:59 KwarK wrote:On July 28 2013 02:56 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:50 Mothra wrote:On July 28 2013 02:42 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:23 ZenithM wrote:On July 28 2013 00:25 KwarK wrote:On July 27 2013 23:52 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:35 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. OK, so? What exactly are you trying to argue? that winners don't need justification and that playing the vigilante card, is just disguised hypocrisy. On July 27 2013 23:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 27 2013 23:30 xM(Z wrote:
it's not about right or wrong (fine or not fine), it's about who wins.
if they win, your (grand)kids would end up believing that cutting little girls is acceptable. That seems off topic, nobody's talking about going to war. Advocacy is not to be dismissed... I guess you can "win" with pressure but yeah... Not sure what your angle is. ideological wars are the bloodiest and this is what we are doing here. mine is right, yours is wrong so let's see who wins. Your argument is morally bankrupt, you are advocating the abdication of rational judgement, the thing that makes us better than animals, in favour of ideological passivity. You can bitch all you like about how it's all subjective and the winner decides what is normal and good but it's not true, maybe not everything I believe is right and true and good but I'm damn sure that my belief that you shouldn't cut off the clitoris of girls and sew their vaginas shut isn't one of them. Sure enough to impose my beliefs on others who disagree. People disagree all the time but that doesn't mean that there aren't right answers, it just means some people are dumb. What's worse than the dumb people though are people like you who have so little conviction that they'd rather see evil go on in front of them than take a stance, at least the dumb people don't know they're dumb, you claim to look at all the evidence and yet can't come to a conclusion. Assuming that every human being can use "Rational judgement" to come up with the same conclusion is flawed anyway. In those countries, they're not using the same premises as you so they won't get to the same conclusion (that "FGM is bad"). For example, over there religious dogma is much more powerful than in western countries and can be the basis for a "reasoned" argument ("God wants A, hence B" is perfectly fine), which is kind of inconceivable for you. So I agree with xMZ that in the end it comes down to a power struggle between cultures. If you want your "right thing" to prevail, fight and impose it on others. And btw, there isn't really anything to discuss or debate in this thread, I'm sure nobody here actually support the practice :D. Good OP nonetheless, informative at least. The fact here is that there is no real "actual right." This is all based on perception. Zenith, you are very right to point out cultural differences, I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I have to quote your comment because of how on point it is. The U.N. exists in a Western way, whereas these countries don't. The differences because of this make us think the action is barbaric, which isn't the case for a lot of the people taking part in it. The process is slowly dying, for various reasons, and while I don't agree with it, we as westerners have no place telling other people that what they are doing is "objectively bad" even if we find the process detestable. So there is nothing objectively wrong with rape or murder either? The only bad thing about them is the possibility of getting caught? Let's throw out the worst things people can do to each other and say they are vaguely related to the topic at hand! No. There is a difference between a ritual that is accepted by a group of people as necessary for a women, one that the women in the area consent to (barring any of the bullshit "brainwashing" talk that people seem to think is any different than the cultures they live in) and someone raping a women, something she doesn't consent to at all. People consent to scarration all the time, or to labia/clitoris rings or piercings in western society, but I'm guessing that's all fine and dandy because it isn't called mutilation is it Mothra. There are women who argue to this day that marital rape is acceptable and that a women's body belongs to her husband and if the husband wants to have sex with her then he has the right to, even if she does not consent to it. That doesn't make it less rape. You're using consent wrong. That's not marital rape. Not wanting to but doing it anyway without compulsion is giving consent. It may be stupid and wrong in your eyes but it is not withholding consent. Not wanting to and your husband threatens you for not doing your wifely duties (or whatever) or physically overpowers you would be no consent and thus rape. "I don't want to but I'll do it anyway" is consent. "I don't want to and I won't" and then being compelled to through threats or violence is not consent. You're using consent wrong.
If you don't want to do it, you're not giving consent. How is that hard to mix up?
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On July 28 2013 05:49 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:43 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 28 2013 03:59 KwarK wrote:On July 28 2013 02:56 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:50 Mothra wrote:On July 28 2013 02:42 docvoc wrote:On July 28 2013 02:23 ZenithM wrote:On July 28 2013 00:25 KwarK wrote:On July 27 2013 23:52 xM(Z wrote:On July 27 2013 23:35 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
OK, so? What exactly are you trying to argue? that winners don't need justification and that playing the vigilante card, is just disguised hypocrisy. On July 27 2013 23:34 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
That seems off topic, nobody's talking about going to war. Advocacy is not to be dismissed... I guess you can "win" with pressure but yeah... Not sure what your angle is. ideological wars are the bloodiest and this is what we are doing here. mine is right, yours is wrong so let's see who wins. Your argument is morally bankrupt, you are advocating the abdication of rational judgement, the thing that makes us better than animals, in favour of ideological passivity. You can bitch all you like about how it's all subjective and the winner decides what is normal and good but it's not true, maybe not everything I believe is right and true and good but I'm damn sure that my belief that you shouldn't cut off the clitoris of girls and sew their vaginas shut isn't one of them. Sure enough to impose my beliefs on others who disagree. People disagree all the time but that doesn't mean that there aren't right answers, it just means some people are dumb. What's worse than the dumb people though are people like you who have so little conviction that they'd rather see evil go on in front of them than take a stance, at least the dumb people don't know they're dumb, you claim to look at all the evidence and yet can't come to a conclusion. Assuming that every human being can use "Rational judgement" to come up with the same conclusion is flawed anyway. In those countries, they're not using the same premises as you so they won't get to the same conclusion (that "FGM is bad"). For example, over there religious dogma is much more powerful than in western countries and can be the basis for a "reasoned" argument ("God wants A, hence B" is perfectly fine), which is kind of inconceivable for you. So I agree with xMZ that in the end it comes down to a power struggle between cultures. If you want your "right thing" to prevail, fight and impose it on others. And btw, there isn't really anything to discuss or debate in this thread, I'm sure nobody here actually support the practice :D. Good OP nonetheless, informative at least. The fact here is that there is no real "actual right." This is all based on perception. Zenith, you are very right to point out cultural differences, I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I have to quote your comment because of how on point it is. The U.N. exists in a Western way, whereas these countries don't. The differences because of this make us think the action is barbaric, which isn't the case for a lot of the people taking part in it. The process is slowly dying, for various reasons, and while I don't agree with it, we as westerners have no place telling other people that what they are doing is "objectively bad" even if we find the process detestable. So there is nothing objectively wrong with rape or murder either? The only bad thing about them is the possibility of getting caught? Let's throw out the worst things people can do to each other and say they are vaguely related to the topic at hand! No. There is a difference between a ritual that is accepted by a group of people as necessary for a women, one that the women in the area consent to (barring any of the bullshit "brainwashing" talk that people seem to think is any different than the cultures they live in) and someone raping a women, something she doesn't consent to at all. People consent to scarration all the time, or to labia/clitoris rings or piercings in western society, but I'm guessing that's all fine and dandy because it isn't called mutilation is it Mothra. There are women who argue to this day that marital rape is acceptable and that a women's body belongs to her husband and if the husband wants to have sex with her then he has the right to, even if she does not consent to it. That doesn't make it less rape. You're using consent wrong. That's not marital rape. Not wanting to but doing it anyway without compulsion is giving consent. It may be stupid and wrong in your eyes but it is not withholding consent. Not wanting to and your husband threatens you for not doing your wifely duties (or whatever) or physically overpowers you would be no consent and thus rape. "I don't want to but I'll do it anyway" is consent. "I don't want to and I won't" and then being compelled to through threats or violence is not consent. You're using consent wrong. If you don't want to do it, you're not giving consent. How is that hard to mix up?
If you don't want to do it and do it anyway with no one but you making the decision, how are you not giving consent? How is that hard to mix up? Consent is a personal issue.
No consent takes two to tango.
If my girlfriend asks me to go to the store to pick up tampons and I don't want to but I decide to do it anyway because she's my girlfriend and I feel an obligation to do what she asks, am I going to buy tampons without my consent? How exactly was I forced to do that when no one but me was making the decision?
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