EPTBTW I really don't get why people are making such a big deal about phone records. I don't give a fuck if the government sees that I called my Mom this weekend, and you know what, the government doesn't care that I called my Mom either. But why do you care, unless you are a terrorist planning an attack?
Does Snowden deserve the Nobel Peace Prize? - Page 24
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rhs408
United States904 Posts
BTW I really don't get why people are making such a big deal about phone records. I don't give a fuck if the government sees that I called my Mom this weekend, and you know what, the government doesn't care that I called my Mom either. But why do you care, unless you are a terrorist planning an attack? | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:39 Ghostcom wrote: Ah the good old "why do you care if you have nothing to hide" argument.... Expect to hear more and more of it across standard media outlets. | ||
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Blackhawk13
United States442 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:31 rhs408 wrote: BTW I really don't get why people are making such a big deal about phone records. I don't give a fuck if the government sees that I called my Mom this weekend, and you know what, the government doesn't care that I called my Mom either. But why do you care, unless you are a terrorist planning an attack? Because privacy is freedom and the perceived "security" we get from this loss of privacy is not worth it. If you let the government have an inch, they'll want a foot. If they can take our privacy away without a raised finger, then what's next? Defend your rights or lose them. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:31 rhs408 wrote: BTW I really don't get why people are making such a big deal about phone records. I don't give a fuck if the government sees that I called my Mom this weekend, and you know what, the government doesn't care that I called my Mom either. But why do you care, unless you are a terrorist planning an attack? Agreed. With that in mind, any citizen should be able to view the phone records of any other citizens. As you say, they don't have anything to hide unless they're terrorists, and harassing people on such knowledge is already illegal, so what's the problem? | ||
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
Hopefully well placed words lead to continued increase in actions. "Under New START, each former Cold War adversary agreed to cut their deployed nuclear weapons to 1,550, a 30 percent reduction from the previous 2002 bilateral agreement between the two states" (http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/06/19/2179481/obama-announces-new-plans-to-reduce-global-nuclear-weapons-stockpile/?mobile=nc) I"m glad that he's still trying, and to yOngKON, I agree that it would have been better to give the prize after more action. A little progress, hopefully is better than a little retrogress. | ||
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Ai.Cola
Germany236 Posts
What does this have to do with keeping track on what other nations are up to? Some people talked about Germany and WW2. Nobody would be so upset if we were talking about spying on military numbers, industrial production, and so on. And by the way, in the age of cellphones, internet, and so on, who needs spys to figure out that a nation is preparing for war with it's neighbours? In any country it is highly illegal to spy on people's homes and letters, so why would we tolerate spying in our personal messages that we send online, or our personal calls we make via the internet? Those things are exactly the same, only the technoligy/medium used to transfer the information is a different one. PS: to be fair I should point out that as far as I know every E-mail in Germany, and probably in other countries too, is officially scanned for keywords and if it turns out to be very alarming it is checked by the police or whoever is responsible. This makes the secret spying even more absurd. And yes, I also think this should be illegal and stopped. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:48 Ai.Cola wrote: I find it alarming that some people here keep defeinding the spying, I mean we are talking about private E-mails, SKYPE CALLS, facebook chat, and so on. What does this have to do with keeping track on what other nations are up to? Some people talked about Germany and WW2. Nobody would be so upset if we were talking about spying on military numbers, industrial production, and so on. And by the way, in the age of cellphones, internet, and so on, who needs spys to figure out that a nation is preparing for war with it's neighbours? In any country it is highly illegal to spy on people's homes and letters, so why would we tolerate spying in our personal messages that we send online, or our personal calls we make via the internet? Those things are exactly the same, only the technoligy/medium used to transfer the information is a different one. PS: to be fair I should point out that as far as I know every E-mail in Germany, and probably in other countries too, is officially scanned for keywords and if it turns out to be very alarming it is checked by the police or whoever is responsible. This makes the secret spying even more absurd. And yes, I also think this should be illegal and stopped. Ai.Cola, I agree that it is completely illegal and hope it will be stopped. Just to point out some cultural differences, I guess that we didn't go through occupation by another country nor genocide. So the US is still struggling to grasp that. We didn't have to meet at church to hide information from an occupier, we didn't have a wall dividing our people. We don't have near as much censorship in the US.(GoGo mods, who censor the ascii genitals) We let anyone say stupid things, and just give people arbitrary varying amounts of credibility. We still have a young country that believes that negotiating and spying is better than genocide, even though they are just as bad but in a different way. I have family that was in East Germany and I feel the same way as you. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:43 Blackhawk13 wrote: Because privacy is freedom and the perceived "security" we get from this loss of privacy is not worth it. If you let the government have an inch, they'll want a foot. If they can take our privacy away without a raised finger, then what's next? Defend your rights or lose them. There are a lot of rights that we need to defend. Look at Guantanamo Bay, or the police brutality that happens with frightening regularity. This Snowden smokescreen is drawing attention to the wrong things. Privacy is a right that we need to defend, it's a right that we should have. But is it really being violated here? Do you think that anyone in the government will actually read your messages, among the trillions of other messages that are sent every day? I doubt it, unless you happen to be planning a terrorist attack. Snowden should know better than anyone that very little harm is being done here, and that's why I think he's doing this mainly for attention purposes. | ||
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quebecman77
Canada133 Posts
Only a small % of the population did know that the USA was doing something like that , now everyone knows , and we can guess we will get new law and in 10 years this will have helped most of you guys posting here , it will get better , maybe not but this will get worst realy less fast that how fast it was going right now , they were close to control the internet with pipa , sofa ect , now you can be sure these kind of law will just not pass easy like before !! , he have fought for freedom and you call him a criminal ??? What's wrong with your guy ?? I was thinking Starcraft game was smart , stop to be brain washed and just get what the TV news tell you and think for yourself !! Look at the internet , find the info , think !! this make me angry what bob in the usa think , but that not his fault , are you bob ? | ||
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amaDeus
Germany205 Posts
Privacy is a right that we need to defend, it's a right that we should have. But is it really being violated here? Do you think that anyone in the government will actually read your messages, among the trillions of other messages that are sent every day? I doubt it, unless you happen to be planning a terrorist attack. Snowden should know better than anyone that very little harm is being done here, and that's why I think he's doing this mainly for attention purposes. It's actually a pretty huge deal. It's not about Obama reading your personal letter to Person X. it's about all of the data gathered and saved (for unlimited time) without you actually able to stop that. it's the possibility of being a little step towards the "glassy citizen" where there's no real privacy left. if it was all about attention the US wouldn't have pressed on other nations that hard because of snowden. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:31 rhs408 wrote: The only thing more shocking and irksome than the fact that people took the Nobel Peace Prize nomination for Snowden seriously is the poll results in the OP of this thread. 75% here think he actually deserves it? What. The. Fuck. Nobel Peace prize for letting it out that the US... has access to its citizens' phone records? smh. Not only is it ridiculous but it is a big slap in the face to everyone else who has ever won a Nobel Peace Prize. BTW I really don't get why people are making such a big deal about phone records. I don't give a fuck if the government sees that I called my Mom this weekend, and you know what, the government doesn't care that I called my Mom either. But why do you care, unless you are a terrorist planning an attack? It's a blatant breach of the fourth amendment. A right US citizens are guaranteed at birth -- that their privacy won't be violated to "fish" for crimes without probable cause. This isn't just about random phone calls to a mother. The audacity you have to flaunt your ignorance by suggesting any American who defends their right is a terrorist. And Snowden is sacrificing his own freedom, possibly even his life to make the people aware their rights are being taken away. Freedom, a privilege you have apparently taken for granted. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:58 tokinho wrote: Ai.Cola, I agree that it is completely illegal and hope it will be stopped. Just to point out some cultural differences, I guess that we didn't go through occupation by another country nor genocide. So the US is still struggling to grasp that. We didn't have to meet at church to hide information from an occupier, we didn't have a wall dividing our people. We don't have near as much censorship in the US.(GoGo mods, who censor the ascii genitals) We let anyone say stupid things, and just give people arbitrary varying amounts of credibility. We still have a young country that believes that negotiating and spying is better than genocide, even though they are just as bad but in a different way. I have family that was in East Germany and I feel the same way as you. I think you missed a couple of lessons in your history class. As for the bolded: Are you really trying to say that it is either spying or genocide? I think you might want to reconsider that. | ||
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quebecman77
Canada133 Posts
they could control everything... and SERIOUSLY , It's a blatant breach of the fourth amendment. A right US citizens are guaranteed at birth -- that their privacy won't be violated to "fish" for crimes without probable cause. This isn't just about random phone calls to a mother. The audacity you have to flaunt your ignorance by suggesting any American who defends their right is a terrorist. if people want to fight again big corporation , they can supress them easy , no one would dare do that in 2052 then we get 1984 , maybe you dont care that they know you have called your mom today but in 15 year when you see for exemple someone realy rich do a murder and because of this system you just disappear , you will care . | ||
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Mansef
59 Posts
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Ai.Cola
Germany236 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:58 tokinho wrote: Ai.Cola, I agree that it is completely illegal and hope it will be stopped. Just to point out some cultural differences, I guess that we didn't go through occupation by another country nor genocide. So the US is still struggling to grasp that. We didn't have to meet at church to hide information from an occupier, we didn't have a wall dividing our people. We don't have near as much censorship in the US.(GoGo mods, who censor the ascii genitals) We let anyone say stupid things, and just give people arbitrary varying amounts of credibility. We still have a young country that believes that negotiating and spying is better than genocide, even though they are just as bad but in a different way. I have family that was in East Germany and I feel the same way as you. Kind of don't know what you mean, but here are some facts to enlighten you. 1. the USA are built upon the genocide of the Native American population 2. Ever heared of slavery? 3. the USA also started out as the colony of another Nation, sounds pretty much like occupation to me 4. You didn't have a wall, but a straight on civil war, north vs east 5. "not near as much censorship" !? Where exactly is the terrible censorship in Germany? At least you can say "fuck" out loud here and say any word you want in a song. The censorship is pretty even when it comes to more or less "normal" people. We still have a young country that believes that negotiating and spying is better than genocide, even though they are just as bad but in a different way. I don't get this at all, what does it have to do with the topic? However, the USA were based on the idea of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, privacy, and so on, because at the time those ideas were not yet established in europe. So it is very sad to see that the USA (AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ASWELL) start to take those rights away from us again, under the ridiculous excuse of terrorism ... | ||
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amaDeus
Germany205 Posts
On July 18 2013 09:28 Mansef wrote: Maybe if he had not ran away and evaded the legal system like a coward. Uh...wat? Yeah. Sure. He should get "judged" by the USA. Cause USA will "judge right" in this case. He will get imprisoned, tortured and you want him to stay? He did an unbelieveable self-sacrifice by doing what he did. Ever heard of Bradley Manning, the whisteblower of WikiLeaks? Ridiculous. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:59 Loanshark wrote: Privacy is a right that we need to defend, it's a right that we should have. But is it really being violated here? Do you think that anyone in the government will actually read your messages, among the trillions of other messages that are sent every day? I doubt it, unless you happen to be planning a terrorist attack. Or if the algorithm mistakenly identifies a completely random person as a high priority surveillance target. Or if you make a joke about terrorist attacks while playing League of Legends. Or if you write something that could even remotely be interpreted as being sympathetic towards terrorists. Or if you're found to be a threat-to-national-security in a way completely unrelated to terrorism. Snowden isn't a terrorist, but he's been branded as the enemy nonetheless - seems kind of easy to be branded the "enemy" nowadays. If anything, messages about actual terrorist attacks are probably the only kind they're NOT going to read, because nobody is going to be stupid enough to plan terrorist attacks via Gmail, nor were they doing that so far. The foundation of privacy is that you cannot access any of my private information unless I decide to give you permission or you come with an actual warrant. Is that being violated here? Of course it bloody is. It doesn't matter what they will read and what won't they read in the end. They have access to it, they have no ethical right to that access, and they should certainly have no legal right to it, but fuck knows they've been allowed to pass a metric ton of legislation that is completely out of place in a modern democracy. | ||
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Basic Basic
Tuvalu52 Posts
On July 18 2013 09:28 quebecman77 wrote: For example someone knows the police did something really wrong , with this system he can never talk , no one will know . they could control everything... and SERIOUSLY , It's a blatant breach of the fourth amendment. A right US citizens are guaranteed at birth -- that their privacy won't be violated to "fish" for crimes without probable cause. This isn't just about random phone calls to a mother. The audacity you have to flaunt your ignorance by suggesting any American who defends their right is a terrorist. if people want to fight again big corporation , they can supress them easy , no one would dare do that in 2052 then we get 1984 , maybe you dont care that they know you have called your mom today but in 15 year when you see for exemple someone realy rich do a murder and because of this system you just disappear , you will care . "They" already do control everything, in case you didn't notice. The government has been spying since the Patriot Act. I understand that there's a scare of the Orwellian Nightmare, but honestly...I just don't see that happening with the U.S. government. I do believe that the NSA is only doing this to help the populace, not harm us. You may say I'm just a brainwashed idiot, but it seems like people are making too big of a fuss. I don't see the harm in letting some pasty faced government official look over all my posts, emails, conversations, and pictures. They're not going to use the information they gather unless it looks like a serious threat to national security. If the NSA begins to use the info they gather to really start oppressing the populace, then I'd get worried. As for the fourth amendment... I honestly think our Constitution is outdated for the most part anyway. That's going off-topic, though. | ||
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