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Ai.Cola
Germany236 Posts
Look at Boston, didn't see the NSA intervene last minute. there has been no decline or rise in terrorist activities at all. and most "terrorists" that have been captured by these kind of spying software probably mostly are crazy kids/losers that pose no real threat at all anyways (for example the "Sauerland group" from Germany) If it is online in existance to stop terrorism, why does nobody like it and why was it a secret? | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:03 Shiori wrote: LegalLord, you stated that certain things would qualify as grounds for asylum for a North Korean defector. Well, Snowden is attempting to obtain asylum from various countries (despite the US disrespecting the sovereignty of other nations behind the scenes and trying to make difficulties for him). It's not like he's on the run and the every nation in the world is trying to have him arrested. It's just that the US wants him to be extradited. Snowden is seeking asylum because he thinks that he qualifies for it and because he thinks that the extradition requests are predicated on unjust/unconstitutional/illegal arguments. What exactly do you have a problem with? He doesn't deserve asylum as a political refugee, which is what many of you make him out to be. No one will give him asylum because they believe that he did the right thing by disclosing critical government documents. The Latin American countries do so as a "screw you" to the US for past troubles. He's not being persecuted, he's just being asked to answer for crimes that he did commit in a fair court of law. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On July 18 2013 02:56 Ai.Cola wrote: I mean seriously guys, how can anybody thing this will protect us form terrorism? Look at Boston, didn't see the NSA intervene last minute. there has been no decline or rise in terrorist activities at all. and most "terrorists" that have been captured by these kind of spying software probably mostly are crazy kids/losers that pose no real threat at all anyways (for example the "Sauerland group" from Germany) If it is online in existance to stop terrorism, why does nobody like it and why was it a secret? This is exactly that doesn't seem to get through to people. Nobody's security is being compromised by these leaks other than the security of NSA/government figureheads' jobs (and apparently, not even that). The idea that Snowden compromised national security is the only thing they CAN say in an attempt to mitigate the PR damage and distract the public from the topic that actually matters. Of course people that are behind this program are going to say this to justify their activities, or at the very least to justify their wages. There is noevidence that PRISM is an effective tool for countering and preventing terrorist activities. There are no results to be seen, there is no transparency, there is no way to demand accountability, even though the fundamental logic of the program is questionable when it comes to its potential to solve problems it was supposedly designed to solve. In this thread alone, it has been pointed out in dozens of posts that nobody should be surprised by the fact PRISM exists. Well guess who else is not surprised - that's right, people this program is supposed to be catching. You can bet they know more than enough about communication security do bypass basic data mining. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:08 LegalLord wrote: The Latin American countries do so as a "screw you" to the US for past troubles. This is exactly what the US position was with respect to Soviet defectors, and NK defectors during the Korean War. Why is it suddenly not okay now? I don't think the US has a justifiable claim against Snowden except as defined by their own (immoral) understanding of state secrets and the role of the NSA. Nobody outside of the US is under any obligation to respect the US's position on "treason" in this case. He doesn't deserve asylum as a political refugee, which is what many of you make him out to be. Why doesn't he deserve asylum as a political refugee? | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On July 18 2013 01:16 AnomalySC2 wrote: In all honesty I don't think people actually expect he will will the Nobel Peace Prize, but more so just showing their support for him and what he has done. Also I don't really agree that most people already knew what our government was up to in regards to spying on not just suspected terrorists, but well, everyone and everything. Even if that were the case, he has provided proof and confirmation of it all in exchange for essentially his entire life. That is a true hero imo. That's a legit view for sure. I guess it depends on how one views a hero, I don't view someone who gives away national security issues to enemies a hero (his more recent actions) but I do view what he did along the lines of talking about the NSA a more heroic venture, but still not one that deserves the peace prize. Also, about Arafat, yeah I agree. There is a lot of politics regarding all the prizes, and because of that there tend to be bullshit winners. The peace prize shows this most often; often times the prize will be given more as a politically correct venture or as an outstretched hand to a people who are "under privileged." | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:11 Shiori wrote: This is exactly what the US position was with respect to Soviet defectors, and NK defectors during the Korean War. Why is it suddenly not okay now? I don't think the US has a justifiable claim against Snowden except as defined by their own (immoral) understanding of state secrets and the role of the NSA. Nobody outside of the US is under any obligation to respect the US's position on "treason" in this case. Does the US have a justifiable claim against a criminal who committed an armed robbery and then fled the country? Yes they do. That's the reason they have a claim to Snowden. He stole documents and he is charged with espionage. The big difference is that the US is not at war, and that due process doesn't exist in NK, and possibly not in a USSR court martial. On July 18 2013 03:11 Shiori wrote:Why doesn't he deserve asylum as a political refugee? Because he isn't one. | ||
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aFganFlyTrap
Australia212 Posts
On July 15 2013 23:34 -Archangel- wrote: Nobel prize lost all value after giving one to Obama so nobody cares who gets it anymore. But if my vote counted for anything I say Yes. Henry Kissinger won it in the early 70's. Ill let that sink in... He is just one of many, many totally undeserving winners since then. Even before the 70s there are numerous controversial winners. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:08 LegalLord wrote: He doesn't deserve asylum as a political refugee, which is what many of you make him out to be. No one will give him asylum because they believe that he did the right thing by disclosing critical government documents. The Latin American countries do so as a "screw you" to the US for past troubles. He's not being persecuted, he's just being asked to answer for crimes that he did commit in a fair court of law. rofl @ "fair" court of law. While we're at it why not use the secret fisa court that has been used to "legalize" (or in other words, hide/manipulate) everything the NSA has been doing. That sure would be "fair". | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:15 LegalLord wrote: Does the US have a justifiable claim against a criminal who committed an armed robbery and then fled the country? No, they do not. The US has a claim against a criminal* who committed... The claim is not "justifiable" because it is predicated on a nonsensical interpretation of the exposure of this information somehow harming the United States. *As defined by US laws regarding espionage. Because he isn't one. According to whom? Political asylum is a matter of national sovereignty. If Venezuela judges Snowden to meet the criteria for asylum (probably on the grounds of protecting political activism) then is that not their right as a sovereign nation? | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:22 TBO wrote: I have no idea how things work, but why isn't there an international warrant for Snowden if the USA think he is guilty of some crimes? There probably is. Good thing there are still countries out there willing to stand up to injustice. | ||
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Ai.Cola
Germany236 Posts
Is it standard practice in the USA to revoke the passport of a person suspected of a crime (or at least not yet sentenced guilty by a court) ? (I really don't know if it is) | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:26 Millitron wrote: There probably is. Good thing there are still countries out there willing to stand up to injustice. didn't find anything about it though, other than Ireland rejecting to issue a warrant for Snowden for formal reasons: http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-high-court-arrest-warrant-snowden-984276-Jul2013/ . Them asking Ireland to issue an warrant would make no sense if there is an international warrant. | ||
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Meow-Meow
Germany451 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:08 LegalLord wrote: No one will give him asylum because they believe that he did the right thing by disclosing critical government documents. The Latin American countries do so as a "screw you" to the US for past troubles. He's not being persecuted, he's just being asked to answer for crimes that he did commit in a fair court of law. I'm sure he will get a fair trial. It would be very unjust indeed if he didn't have to answer for raping and murdering the girl. | ||
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:15 LegalLord wrote: Does the US have a justifiable claim against a criminal who committed an armed robbery and then fled the country? Yes they do. That's the reason they have a claim to Snowden. He stole documents and he is charged with espionage. The big difference is that the US is not at war, and that due process doesn't exist in NK, and possibly not in a USSR court martial. Because he isn't one. he is one because he is being persecuted by the USA because he obviously has a different understanding of the constitution than the government/NSA he did what he thaught was right (btw that is also why your comparison to armed robbery is completely irrelevant) and he is being persecuted for it by the government ---> political refugee | ||
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:15 LegalLord wrote: Does the US have a justifiable claim against a criminal who committed an armed robbery and then fled the country? Yes they do. That's the reason they have a claim to Snowden. He stole documents and he is charged with espionage. The big difference is that the US is not at war, and that due process doesn't exist in NK, and possibly not in a USSR court martial. Because he isn't one. As for the claim against an armed robber, there is no doubt that most treaties would recognize that under certain other restrictions. How on earth do you conflate theft and robbery? I do not believe theft is generally covered by extradition treaties, since the severity of the crime has to reach a certain threshold. And please elaborate on the materiality of the claim that he is not a political refugee. I do not see where that comes from. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On July 18 2013 03:11 docvoc wrote: That's a legit view for sure. I guess it depends on how one views a hero, I don't view someone who gives away national security issues to enemies a hero (his more recent actions) but I do view what he did along the lines of talking about the NSA a more heroic venture, but still not one that deserves the peace prize. Also, about Arafat, yeah I agree. There is a lot of politics regarding all the prizes, and because of that there tend to be bullshit winners. The peace prize shows this most often; often times the prize will be given more as a politically correct venture or as an outstretched hand to a people who are "under privileged." Enemies being American citizens? | ||
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