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On December 10 2018 21:46 Jockmcplop wrote:
Of course, the uncertainty generated by this government over the simple yes/no issue of a vote tomorrow has caused the pound to devalue again., quite severely.
Whatever keeps the Maybot in power, I suppose.
I think of all PMs in our lifetime, Theresa May is the least power-hungry or concerned with the role. She's probably eagerly looking forward to getting shot of the thing.
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I feel this is very typical for the state of women in this society. Takes a shit job that nobody else, her included, really wants to do, works against her belief while still doing what she thinks is best for everyone.
And of course everyone blasts her for failing after setting her up to have no chance but to do exactly that.
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She didn't have to be PM. She actively put hereself up for selection for it. Teresa May is not some hapless victim of fate for a postion she didn't want. She fought to be in power; she chose to be PM. She chose "brexit means brexit", she chose "no deal is better than a bad deal", and she chose all the actions that led to the current situation.
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On December 10 2018 22:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
She didn't have to be PM. She actively put hereself up for selection for it. Teresa May is not some hapless victim of fate for a postion she didn't want. She fought to be in power; she chose to be PM. She chose "brexit means brexit", she chose "no deal is better than a bad deal", and she chose all the actions that led to the current situation.
Exactly. This narrative that has developed of 'poor Theresa May' and the unfortunate circumstance she finds herself in are total bullshit. She was undermining the relationship between the UK and the EU long before Brexit, has had a hand in engineering the anti immigrant sentiment that led directly to the anger around Brexit, and has been desperately clinging on to power despite her own party and everyone else telling her to GTFO since she took over.
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As much as May has chosen to take on her job with the Brexit Baggage and all, she actually done alright considering the number of self serving bellends throughout Parliment who amount to armchair PMs without any actual solutions.
She's done well to avoid populism.
It's nice to blame the PM for Brexit but really it all started with "the people" who voted for the damn thing in a completely uninformed manner.
In her role she has actually tried to get "the people" what they wanted (Brexit), but unfortunately "the people" did not realise how bad a negotiating position Britain was coming in from and didn't really understand that Jacob, Boris, Nigel et al. fed them propaganda and lies (where's the backlash against them?) let alone Dave who quit his negotiating role because he was shit.
The narrative should be: You fucking idiots, the general population voted for this. You believed what was sold to you by Team Brexit. Take some responsibility and hold them to account or shut up. May has put something on the table (it's not what was promised because that's reality), nobody else has, eat up or reject it.
(Disclosure, voted remain, am overall more Conservative but voted Labour last election because Conservatives cocked up and 4 years of Corbyn would've hopefully woken them up)
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Given that she played a figurative role in greasing the groove that got the Brexit referendum through in the first place, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that she’s avoided populism; she basically rode into PM on it. The populace didn’t vote on Brexit in a vacuum, after all.
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She benefited from Populism, but she hasn't been the one promoting it.
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On December 10 2018 23:09 MoonfireSpam wrote:
She benefited from Populism, but she hasn't been the one promoting it.
As home secretary, she created arbitrary, impossible to achieve immigration targets and then failed to meet them, practically inventing a massive immigration issue out of nothing. If that isn't promoting populism I don't know what is.
Either she did that to promote populism, or she really is an incompetent moron.
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Wasn't the she, as Home Secretary, also trying to deport a bunch of British citizens who immigrated here during a labor shortage back in teh 1970s or something? I remember that story reaching the US because of how brazen it was.
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Shes made some moronic decisions. So has Britain. So have I. That's a stupid policy. Populism looks like this.
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyway the point I was trying to make that theres plenty of blame to go around from the person that didn't vote, to the person that thought the Brexit Campaign was delivering realistic promises, to the back benches, to the PM and holding one person accountable is silly.
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On December 10 2018 23:13 Plansix wrote:
Wasn't the she, as Home Secretary, also trying to deport a bunch of British citizens who immigrated here during a labor shortage back in teh 1970s or something? I remember that story reaching the US because of how brazen it was.
It was a complex mess that one, but the Home office when she was home secretary destroyed those citizens' documents that were needed to prove that they were British citizens. The policy under which they were deported was started by May, but stepped up a gear under her successor, Amber Rudd.
Many of the people who were deported were shipped over here to help build our country and May's 'hostile environment' immigration policy basically made it impossible for them to avoid getting deported, impossible for them to get NHS healthcare, many were fired from their jobs under pressure from the home office.
The whole hostile environment thing was May's brainchild, and uses every single aspect of someone's life against them until they leave the country, or end up permanently in a detention center like Yarl's Wood. Its like a genius sadistic dystopic vision. The woman is evil.
On December 10 2018 23:15 MoonfireSpam wrote:Shes made some moronic decisions. So has Britain. So have I. That's a stupid policy. Populism looks like this. + Show Spoiler +Anyway the point I was trying to make that theres plenty of blame to go around from the person that didn't vote, to the person that thought the Brexit Campaign was delivering realistic promises, to the back benches, to the PM and holding one person accountable is silly.
I'm not trying to put all of the blame on May for Brexit, but she is as responsible as anyone else in the world for the position she finds herself in, she wasn't whisked out of a quiet housewife life by a group of old tory men, she chose her path, engineered the circumstances of her rise to power, took on a job that she wasn't ready to do, and has screwed it up quite badly by misreading everyone at every turn.
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Brexit means Brexit is iconic, true that :D
Though at the time that pretty much was the only thing that was clear. Her position of no deal being better than a bad one did get turned upside down by her managing a pretty dope deal without much apparent help from her DExEU folk, or rather Brexit secretary.
My metaphor is lacking accuracy regarding her being forced into the position, I agree with that. And she also, after all is said and done, managed to get a deal that is to her liking, relatively speaking.
Nevertheless, I think it does have enough truth in it to not be completely ridiculous. Actively sabotaging or not contributing to the project at all and being unhappy with the result afterwards go hand in hand and you forfeit your right to outrage if you do that.
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On December 10 2018 23:17 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2018 23:13 Plansix wrote:
Wasn't the she, as Home Secretary, also trying to deport a bunch of British citizens who immigrated here during a labor shortage back in teh 1970s or something? I remember that story reaching the US because of how brazen it was. It was a complex mess that one, but the Home office when she was home secretary destroyed those citizens' documents that were needed to prove that they were British citizens. The policy under which they were deported was started by May, but stepped up a gear under her successor, Amber Rudd. Many of the people who were deported were shipped over here to help build our country and May's 'hostile environment' immigration policy basically made it impossible for them to avoid getting deported, impossible for them to get NHS healthcare, many were fired from their jobs under pressure from the home office. The whole hostile environment thing was May's brainchild, and uses every single aspect of someone's life against them until they leave the country, or end up permanently in a detention center like Yarl's Wood. Its like a genius sadistic dystopic vision. The woman is evil. Show nested quote +On December 10 2018 23:15 MoonfireSpam wrote:Shes made some moronic decisions. So has Britain. So have I. That's a stupid policy. Populism looks like this. + Show Spoiler +Anyway the point I was trying to make that theres plenty of blame to go around from the person that didn't vote, to the person that thought the Brexit Campaign was delivering realistic promises, to the back benches, to the PM and holding one person accountable is silly. I'm not trying to put all of the blame on May for Brexit, but she is as responsible as anyone else in the world for the position she finds herself in, she wasn't whisked out of a quiet housewife life by a group of old tory men, she chose her path, engineered the circumstances of her rise to power, took on a job that she wasn't ready to do, and has screwed it up quite badly by misreading everyone at every turn.
Except this isn't true at all.
May was badgered into running for PM because all the alternatives to May were fucking awful and made everyone angry. She was an internal compromise candidate because of her long period as Home secretary putting her in a position to at least understand how the EU worked. She was the only candidate nobody in her own party had no issue with. She was put out front to be shot by the public and has gamely gone out to get shot and is getting shot while the people who put her out there to get shot throw eggs.
Unless you seriously would want our PM to be Boris Johnson, of course, given he was the other front runner at the time.
May did her duty as a civil servant and loyal party member, and essentially sacrificed her political career to get the Tory party through this period. She wasn't some macchiavellian schemer planning to seize the premiership. She was totally a David Cameron inner circle woman and one of the only ones who stayed loyal, which is again why she was chosen. Shockingly, even the Tories balk at rewarding blatant personal treachery.
Yes, the home office made immigratrants lives fucking miserable. Why is this a surprise? The Tories have hated immigrants forever. more importantly, Tory voters have hated immigrants forever.
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On December 11 2018 00:51 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2018 23:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2018 23:13 Plansix wrote:
Wasn't the she, as Home Secretary, also trying to deport a bunch of British citizens who immigrated here during a labor shortage back in teh 1970s or something? I remember that story reaching the US because of how brazen it was. It was a complex mess that one, but the Home office when she was home secretary destroyed those citizens' documents that were needed to prove that they were British citizens. The policy under which they were deported was started by May, but stepped up a gear under her successor, Amber Rudd. Many of the people who were deported were shipped over here to help build our country and May's 'hostile environment' immigration policy basically made it impossible for them to avoid getting deported, impossible for them to get NHS healthcare, many were fired from their jobs under pressure from the home office. The whole hostile environment thing was May's brainchild, and uses every single aspect of someone's life against them until they leave the country, or end up permanently in a detention center like Yarl's Wood. Its like a genius sadistic dystopic vision. The woman is evil. On December 10 2018 23:15 MoonfireSpam wrote:Shes made some moronic decisions. So has Britain. So have I. That's a stupid policy. Populism looks like this. + Show Spoiler +Anyway the point I was trying to make that theres plenty of blame to go around from the person that didn't vote, to the person that thought the Brexit Campaign was delivering realistic promises, to the back benches, to the PM and holding one person accountable is silly. I'm not trying to put all of the blame on May for Brexit, but she is as responsible as anyone else in the world for the position she finds herself in, she wasn't whisked out of a quiet housewife life by a group of old tory men, she chose her path, engineered the circumstances of her rise to power, took on a job that she wasn't ready to do, and has screwed it up quite badly by misreading everyone at every turn. Except this isn't true at all. May was badgered into running for PM because all the alternatives to May were fucking awful and made everyone angry. She was an internal compromise candidate because of her long period as Home secretary putting her in a position to at least understand how the EU worked. She was the only candidate nobody in her own party had no issue with. She was put out front to be shot by the public and has gamely gone out to get shot and is getting shot while the people who put her out there to get shot throw eggs.Unless you seriously would want our PM to be Boris Johnson, of course, given he was the other front runner at the time. May did her duty as a civil servant and loyal party member, and essentially sacrificed her political career to get the Tory party through this period. She wasn't some macchiavellian schemer planning to seize the premiership. She was totally a David Cameron inner circle woman and one of the only ones who stayed loyal, which is again why she was chosen. Shockingly, even the Tories balk at rewarding blatant personal treachery. Yes, the home office made immigratrants lives fucking miserable. Why is this a surprise? The Tories have hated immigrants forever. more importantly, Tory voters have hated immigrants forever.
These are just assertions. If she didn't want the job all she had to do is not run for the job. I don't understand this, whether its some bizarre patronizing sexism or some other kind of blind spot, but Theresa May isn't controlled by people, she has a choice, and has had choices all throughout her political career, and each time has chosen the stupid one or the evil one.
She is constantly screwing everything up. I really can't see why people insist on defending her. Poor Theresa May, just running through fields of wheat one day and then an evil tory overlord picks her up and makes her prime minister totally against her will.
Just today she has completely misjudged the following situations:
Spending a hundred grand on social media promoting her deal which she has now cancelled to go back to the EU with her tail between her legs because the thing that everyone said would happen, happened.
Failing to announce in a timely fashion that the vote was cancelled leading to uncertainty that caused the pound to fall to its lowest point against the dollar in over a year
Cancelling the vote for the deal that she screwed up, leaving absolutely no margin for error after the next vote (ie the next vote will be May's deal or no deal - no more time for further exploring of options).
That's one day in the life of Theresa May, the poor public servant with power hoisted upon her by the eeeeeeeeeevil Boris Johnson.
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As an outsider, I cannot feel bad for someone who ran the immigration office during the time of a surge of anti immigrant sentiment, who is then saddled with having to clean up the fall out of that anti immigrant sentiment she helped create.
And from the reading above, her office destroyed a bunch of documents that lead to the deportation of UK citizens. Given the benefit of assuming zero malice, her time running of the Home Office appears to have been marred with gross incompetence on such a scale that is cost people their rights as UK citizens. That would be like my wife being deported to Italy because some nob destroyed her birth certificate and all records of her father’s citizenship.
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On December 11 2018 00:51 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2018 23:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2018 23:13 Plansix wrote:
Wasn't the she, as Home Secretary, also trying to deport a bunch of British citizens who immigrated here during a labor shortage back in teh 1970s or something? I remember that story reaching the US because of how brazen it was. It was a complex mess that one, but the Home office when she was home secretary destroyed those citizens' documents that were needed to prove that they were British citizens. The policy under which they were deported was started by May, but stepped up a gear under her successor, Amber Rudd. Many of the people who were deported were shipped over here to help build our country and May's 'hostile environment' immigration policy basically made it impossible for them to avoid getting deported, impossible for them to get NHS healthcare, many were fired from their jobs under pressure from the home office. The whole hostile environment thing was May's brainchild, and uses every single aspect of someone's life against them until they leave the country, or end up permanently in a detention center like Yarl's Wood. Its like a genius sadistic dystopic vision. The woman is evil. On December 10 2018 23:15 MoonfireSpam wrote:Shes made some moronic decisions. So has Britain. So have I. That's a stupid policy. Populism looks like this. + Show Spoiler +Anyway the point I was trying to make that theres plenty of blame to go around from the person that didn't vote, to the person that thought the Brexit Campaign was delivering realistic promises, to the back benches, to the PM and holding one person accountable is silly. I'm not trying to put all of the blame on May for Brexit, but she is as responsible as anyone else in the world for the position she finds herself in, she wasn't whisked out of a quiet housewife life by a group of old tory men, she chose her path, engineered the circumstances of her rise to power, took on a job that she wasn't ready to do, and has screwed it up quite badly by misreading everyone at every turn. Except this isn't true at all. May was badgered into running for PM because all the alternatives to May were fucking awful and made everyone angry. She was an internal compromise candidate because of her long period as Home secretary putting her in a position to at least understand how the EU worked. She was the only candidate nobody in her own party had no issue with. She was put out front to be shot by the public and has gamely gone out to get shot and is getting shot while the people who put her out there to get shot throw eggs. Unless you seriously would want our PM to be Boris Johnson, of course, given he was the other front runner at the time. May did her duty as a civil servant and loyal party member, and essentially sacrificed her political career to get the Tory party through this period. She wasn't some macchiavellian schemer planning to seize the premiership. She was totally a David Cameron inner circle woman and one of the only ones who stayed loyal, which is again why she was chosen. Shockingly, even the Tories balk at rewarding blatant personal treachery. Yes, the home office made immigratrants lives fucking miserable. Why is this a surprise? The Tories have hated immigrants forever. more importantly, Tory voters have hated immigrants forever.
Except you're wrong.
May didn't just magically pop up when the brexit vote happened. And you literally said it. Tories hate immigrants. And she was the executive behind that sentiment.
Did she grab power? Nah, i don't actually think so (though she absolutely banked on the anti-immigrant/EU wave, trying to ride it which spectacularly backfired with the snap elections too). Does she understand how the EU works (remember all the cherries the UK will get?)? No, she didn't either. By now she does, so there's that i suppose.
As a sidenote, May deserves every egg that has been thrown. Just not exclusively, there's my issue. People often point at May and only at May to explain why this shitshow sits where it sits. Fact of the matter is, 99% of Tories deserve as many eggs - and a few, like Farage, deserve considerably worse.
"Yeah you not gonna vote positively on my deal, so you don't get a vote at all for now. Bye now."
This is probably as bad, or worse than US gerrymandering. Worse, because this has the potential do spectacularly backfire and throw the UK back decades. I mean, sure, that's what some tories want, but then they also wanted all kinds of things from the EU without understanding jack shit, so there's that.
I feel this is very typical for the state of women in this society. Takes a shit job that nobody else, her included, really wants to do, works against her belief while still doing what she thinks is best for everyone.
And of course everyone blasts her for failing after setting her up to have no chance but to do exactly that.
Yeah, .. wow. That's probably the dumbest, most patronising sexist statement in the entire thread.
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I'm super curious as to how that's sexist.
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So, the vote for tomorrow is postponed because May doesn't have the votes. But she is unlikely to ever get the votes because parliament is split between remain, soft and hard brexit.
And thanks to the EU courts decision we will now spend the next 3 months wondering if Britain is going to cancel Brexit or not with all the massive market volatility the comes from that uncertainty.
God, this is a shitshow.
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I'm just glad the UK is waiting until after Christmas to kick the world's economy in the jimmies.
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On December 11 2018 02:00 Gorsameth wrote:
So, the vote for tomorrow is postponed because May doesn't have the votes. But she is unlikely to ever get the votes because parliament is split between remain, soft and hard brexit.
And thanks to the EU courts decision we will now spend the next 3 months wondering if Britain is going to cancel Brexit or not with all the massive market volatility the comes from that uncertainty.
God, this is a shitshow.
Companies will work on the assumption of a hard brexit at this point. It is the only thing they can work towards without gambling. If remain happens that will mean extra costs were had but the alternative would be missing parts on both sides of the border if hard brexit happened.
Has the UK started hiring extra customs workers for a hard brexit yet?
On December 11 2018 02:05 Plansix wrote:
I'm just glad the UK is waiting until after Christmas to kick the world's economy in the jimmies.
If the pound keeps tanking it might be a good idea to order from the UK in the sales after Christmas for EU members.
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