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On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions.
Not sure if this is aimed at me but I think the idea would be simply that this could have been more like a spiteful person also mentioned by this guy, or someone else with access to the weapon used who could benefit from something that looked like a brazenly Russian attack that would seem foolish and unnecessarily risky.
SY wouldn't have to be lying so much as presuming more than they know. Nor would the UK have to nerve gas their own people for this to be used in error for pretext to/justification of conflict.
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Aimed at the people in general who don't believe Scotland Yard.
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On March 19 2018 22:21 Gorsameth wrote:
Aimed at the people in general who don't believe Scotland Yard.
It's not that I "don't believe them" it's that I've known investigators of all stripes and nationalities to be overconfident in their assessments of guilt and motive. That's one reason why they typically aren't the end of criminal justice processes.
That's where my skepticism stems from, not so much a conspiracy or lies, just plain old incompetence and overzealous confidence. Admittedly I don't know the history of Scotland Yard but I'd venture they have similar issues as everywhere else. I mean that's kinda the whole shtick behind Sherlock (not that it's a documentary or anything) isn't it?
That's just to say that Scotland Yard isn't an unimpeachable institution in the common folks mind I would hazard to guess.
Can't say if you meant to include me still or for the others who took similar positions though.
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On March 19 2018 22:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 22:21 Gorsameth wrote:
Aimed at the people in general who don't believe Scotland Yard. It's not that I "don't believe them" it's that I've known investigators of all stripes and nationalities to be overconfident in their assessments of guilt and motive. That's one reason why they typically aren't the end of criminal justice processes. That's where my skepticism stems from, not so much a conspiracy or lies, just plain old incompetence and overzealous confidence. Admittedly I don't know the history of Scotland Yard but I'd venture they have similar issues as everywhere else. I mean that's kinda the whole shtick behind Sherlock (not that it's a documentary or anything) isn't it? That's just to say that Scotland Yard isn't an unimpeachable institution in the common folks mind I would hazard to guess. Can't say if you meant to include me still or for the others who took similar positions though.
If you don't think Russia did it and that Scotland Yard is wrong/being overconfident or whatever then yes I also meant you, just as I would like to hear the opinion of others.
No I don't think Scotland Yard is infallible.
Yes I think they understand the severity of their accusation and would not make it without cause.
And No I don't think Joe Average has the expertise to question their conclusion without good cause.
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I don't know and I don't speculate in whoever could or would have done it. Because I have zero knowledge about that.
I wouldn't be surprised if the evidence congress up with Russia as the culprit, but I wouldn't be surprised either if it doesn't.
Therefore, lashing out strokes before the verdict is only worrying and wrong.
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On March 19 2018 22:41 Schmobutzen wrote:
I don't know and I don't speculate in whoever could or would have done it. Because I have zero knowledge about that.
I wouldn't be surprised if the evidence congress up with Russia as the culprit, but I wouldn't be surprised either if it doesn't.
Therefore, lashing out strokes before the verdict is only worrying and wrong.
Id agree with this as well. I only speculate to put to rest the idea that I was presuming that the UK attacked it's own people.
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On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions.
All of this depends what you mean by Russia.
Do you mean the Russian government, Russian organized crime, ex-Russian spies, or the Russian people as a whole, or something else like the idea of Russia?
People calling for caution are doing so for a very good reason. This has turned into a mob accusation where dissent against the accusation itself is seen as inherently wrong. It could very well be that Putin himself ordered the murder, but there hasn't really been much discussion about it.
The basic thing we have been told since this attack is Russia=bad.
Everything about it is so vague. Our government is blaming Russia for this, not the Russian government, the Russian people or the oligarchs. The whole of Russia is to blame, whatever that means.
Maybe we should be cautious about accepting messages from our government that are obviously dumbed down to the point of idiocy.
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On March 19 2018 23:07 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions. All of this depends what you mean by Russia. Do you mean the Russian government, Russian organized crime, ex-Russian spies, or the Russian people as a whole, or something else like the idea of Russia?
The first 3 of your Russias are pretty much identical?
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On March 19 2018 23:07 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions. All of this depends what you mean by Russia. Do you mean the Russian government, Russian organized crime, ex-Russian spies, or the Russian people as a whole, or something else like the idea of Russia? People calling for caution are doing so for a very good reason. This has turned into a mob accusation where dissent against the accusation itself is seen as inherently wrong. It could very well be that Putin himself ordered the murder, but there hasn't really been much discussion about it. The basic thing we have been told since this attack is Russia=bad. Everything about it is so vague. Our government is blaming Russia for this, not the Russian government, the Russian people or the oligarchs. The whole of Russia is to blame, whatever that means. Maybe we should be cautious about accepting messages from our government that are obviously dumbed down to the point of idiocy.
Your argument is that "Russia did it" is to ambiguous?
Well, thank you for your answer. It sheds a lot of light on your position.
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On March 19 2018 23:13 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 23:07 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions. All of this depends what you mean by Russia. Do you mean the Russian government, Russian organized crime, ex-Russian spies, or the Russian people as a whole, or something else like the idea of Russia? People calling for caution are doing so for a very good reason. This has turned into a mob accusation where dissent against the accusation itself is seen as inherently wrong. It could very well be that Putin himself ordered the murder, but there hasn't really been much discussion about it. The basic thing we have been told since this attack is Russia=bad. Everything about it is so vague. Our government is blaming Russia for this, not the Russian government, the Russian people or the oligarchs. The whole of Russia is to blame, whatever that means. Maybe we should be cautious about accepting messages from our government that are obviously dumbed down to the point of idiocy. Your argument is that "Russia did it" is to ambiguous? Well, thank you for your answer. It sheds a lot of light on your position.
Well fuck it then in the absence of any discussion I'll go fetch my pitchfork.
I'll summarize anyway using an analogy.
There's a murder in France. They realize that the knife used in the murder came from the UK.
The case is solved, the UK did it.
Happy with that?
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On March 19 2018 23:07 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions. All of this depends what you mean by Russia. Do you mean the Russian government, Russian organized crime, ex-Russian spies, or the Russian people as a whole, or something else like the idea of Russia? People calling for caution are doing so for a very good reason. This has turned into a mob accusation where dissent against the accusation itself is seen as inherently wrong. It could very well be that Putin himself ordered the murder, but there hasn't really been much discussion about it. The basic thing we have been told since this attack is Russia=bad. Everything about it is so vague. Our government is blaming Russia for this, not the Russian government, the Russian people or the oligarchs. The whole of Russia is to blame, whatever that means. Maybe we should be cautious about accepting messages from our government that are obviously dumbed down to the point of idiocy.
It should be obvious from the topic we are discussing that by Russia people mean GRU, and of course something so high profile could not be done by them without Putin's go-ahead. You can't possibly believe anyone here meant "Russian people as a whole".
On March 20 2018 01:12 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 23:13 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2018 23:07 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions. All of this depends what you mean by Russia. Do you mean the Russian government, Russian organized crime, ex-Russian spies, or the Russian people as a whole, or something else like the idea of Russia? People calling for caution are doing so for a very good reason. This has turned into a mob accusation where dissent against the accusation itself is seen as inherently wrong. It could very well be that Putin himself ordered the murder, but there hasn't really been much discussion about it. The basic thing we have been told since this attack is Russia=bad. Everything about it is so vague. Our government is blaming Russia for this, not the Russian government, the Russian people or the oligarchs. The whole of Russia is to blame, whatever that means. Maybe we should be cautious about accepting messages from our government that are obviously dumbed down to the point of idiocy. Your argument is that "Russia did it" is to ambiguous? Well, thank you for your answer. It sheds a lot of light on your position. Well fuck it then in the absence of any discussion I'll go fetch my pitchfork. I'll summarize anyway using an analogy. There's a murder in France. They realize that the knife used in the murder came from the UK. The case is solved, the UK did it. Happy with that?
Depends, did Theresa May promise on TV that people like him will die for betraying the UK? Is it a type of knife banned by the Geneva convention that only a few nation-states have access to?
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The issue here, for me at least, isn't really who dunnit but what the motivations are.
I surely agree that it is fairly probable that Russian secret police had something to do with the murder.
What bothers me is the speed and ferocity with which every single UK politician was expected to parrot the line that it was Russia. It also bothers me that those who didn't do this,including Corbyn who dared to suggest that we might want to look at the evidence before drawing conclusions, were berated by the press and their fellow politicians for forgetting their groupthink responsibilities.
Its almost as if this fits neatly into an agenda that was already ongoing.
Its because of that that I am taking all press coverage of this event with a huge pinch of salt.
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On March 20 2018 01:24 Jockmcplop wrote:
The issue here, for me at least, isn't really who dunnit but what the motivations are.
I surely agree that it is fairly probable that Russian secret police had something to do with the murder.
What bothers me is the speed and ferocity with which every single UK politician was expected to parrot the line that it was Russia. It also bothers me that those who didn't do this,including Corbyn who dared to suggest that we might want to look at the evidence before drawing conclusions, were berated by the press and their fellow politicians for forgetting their groupthink responsibilities.
Its almost as if this fits neatly into an agenda that was already ongoing.
Its because of that that I am taking all press coverage of this event with a huge pinch of salt.
I don't disagree but no matter how much we dislike it, this is how the game works. Corbyn doesn't know how to pick his battles, he also got slaughtered in the press for the whole Trident affair. And for what? He walked back on it anyway. Next time he's asked about this I won't be shocked to hear him condemn Russia, despite the evidence being the same.
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On March 20 2018 01:12 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 23:13 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2018 23:07 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions. All of this depends what you mean by Russia. Do you mean the Russian government, Russian organized crime, ex-Russian spies, or the Russian people as a whole, or something else like the idea of Russia? People calling for caution are doing so for a very good reason. This has turned into a mob accusation where dissent against the accusation itself is seen as inherently wrong. It could very well be that Putin himself ordered the murder, but there hasn't really been much discussion about it. The basic thing we have been told since this attack is Russia=bad. Everything about it is so vague. Our government is blaming Russia for this, not the Russian government, the Russian people or the oligarchs. The whole of Russia is to blame, whatever that means. Maybe we should be cautious about accepting messages from our government that are obviously dumbed down to the point of idiocy. Your argument is that "Russia did it" is to ambiguous? Well, thank you for your answer. It sheds a lot of light on your position. Well fuck it then in the absence of any discussion I'll go fetch my pitchfork. I'll summarize anyway using an analogy. There's a murder in France. They realize that the knife used in the murder came from the UK. The case is solved, the UK did it. Happy with that? If the knives were banned, as hard to make and kept as securely as a Cold War nerve agent?
Sure
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United States43565 Posts
On March 19 2018 23:07 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 22:04 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine, lets explore this line of thought a little.
We know Russia has a history and motive for the attack but lets assume what your saying that Scotland Yard is lying.
Why, for what reason and who could have done it instead that needs to be hidden.
And please, please tell me the UK government nerve gassed its own people so it could dismiss a few diplomats and impose some weak sanctions. All of this depends what you mean by Russia. Do you mean the Russian government, Russian organized crime, ex-Russian spies, or the Russian people as a whole, or something else like the idea of Russia? People calling for caution are doing so for a very good reason. This has turned into a mob accusation where dissent against the accusation itself is seen as inherently wrong. It could very well be that Putin himself ordered the murder, but there hasn't really been much discussion about it. The basic thing we have been told since this attack is Russia=bad. Everything about it is so vague. Our government is blaming Russia for this, not the Russian government, the Russian people or the oligarchs. The whole of Russia is to blame, whatever that means. Maybe we should be cautious about accepting messages from our government that are obviously dumbed down to the point of idiocy.
If Russian organized crime has access to Soviet era chemical weapons stockpiles we still have a problem. People assume the order came from the top because they assume that WMDs are controlled from the top.
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Is the idea that Putin made it obviously trace back to himself because he underestimated the blowback or correctly estimated it would fall in his favor?
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Even Boris said on Andrew Marr that if Putin thought the nerve agent was stolen and the attack carried out by rogue elements in Russia or a 3rd party he could have privately communicated this to the British government, he did not do so.
The only logical conclusion is it was carried out by the Russian State, mostly like sanctioned by Putin because its effectively a WMD.
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On March 20 2018 03:37 Zaros wrote:
Even Boris said on Andrew Marr that if Putin thought the nerve agent was stolen and the attack carried out by rogue elements in Russia or a 3rd party he could have privately communicated this to the British government, he did not do so.
What would be the point of privately communicating it if someone like Boris would just tell everyone what they said?
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View it as a test to see what he can get away with. He wants to see how the blow back take form.
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On March 20 2018 03:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 03:37 Zaros wrote:
Even Boris said on Andrew Marr that if Putin thought the nerve agent was stolen and the attack carried out by rogue elements in Russia or a 3rd party he could have privately communicated this to the British government, he did not do so. What would be the point of privately communicating it if someone like Boris would just tell everyone what they said?
To stop them falsely blaming your country and rallying international support for potential sanctions?
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EPT
