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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
Its real evidence. There's a reason why our courts work the way they do, to stop us taking unjust action that is bad for society as a whole. In a court, "I can't think of anyone else that could have done it so he must have done it" isn't good enough. Wait for real evidence and then if we have it, act and act properly. None of this expelling diplomats, but something that makes life difficult for Russia. Until we have good evidence, however, its all just blind speculation. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On March 21 2018 02:41 Plansix wrote: What kind of “real evidence” are you looking for? Something that ties an individual to the crime, and can then tie that individual to whoever is ultimately deemed responsible if it was a state or organization. "The chemical used has once been made in Russia" just doesn't do it for me. Personally I have no doubt that this came from Russia, probably from Putin. The problem is that we need to respond in a way that hurts Russia, and we can't really do that without solid proof. Some press hysteria isn't really a valid response. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On March 21 2018 02:49 Plansix wrote: If they can’t track down a specific person or make an arrest, would you accept evidence that the chemical weapon could only have left Russia with some sort of government approval? I ask because there is a good chance they never catch the person who poisoned these two. Well yeah if they can prove that the chemical was made in Russia. I haven't heard anything that suggests that it was, other than it is a type of chemical that Russia was once making, and that it needs alot of infrastructure to be able to make it. The problem is that we can't react with such tenuous evidence. Sure we've expelled some diplomats but Putin probably laughed into his massive pile of money when he realized that this was all we would do. Its a joke. Get some evidence, show it to the international community and respond as a group properly. Otherwise all we are doing is talking about how evil Putin is again. We knew that anyway. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
Second. What kind of real evidence? For me "I've seen it" testimony also sounds not that convincing. What about Litvanenko? Was that convincing? Both happened pretty much with the same pattern. And how do you react properly? Considering lots of citizens in Russia would struggle due to additional economical sanctions, not the government itself. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On March 21 2018 04:14 Dav1oN wrote: I'm not sure someone can track down the source of gas at all, too late. Only those who responsible for such crime knows the truth and I doubt we would ever know. Second. What kind of real evidence? For me "I've seen it" testimony also sounds not that convincing. What about Litvanenko? Was that convincing? Both happened pretty much with the same pattern. And how do you react properly? Considering lots of citizens in Russia would struggle due to additional economical sanctions, not the government itself. Litvanenko they pretty much know who did it, when he was poisoned, what with, and how it was done. The why is relatively clear. I believe we've got the man fingered as a wanted suspect as well, but Russia doesn't extradite citizens (not a Putin criticism; their constitution doesn't allow for it), so we can't touch him while he hangs out at home. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
On March 21 2018 22:50 iamthedave wrote: Litvanenko they pretty much know who did it, when he was poisoned, what with, and how it was done. The why is relatively clear. I believe we've got the man fingered as a wanted suspect as well, but Russia doesn't extradite citizens (not a Putin criticism; their constitution doesn't allow for it), so we can't touch him while he hangs out at home. So the question is why he escaped unnoticed then. | ||
KwarK
United States42897 Posts
On March 22 2018 03:54 sc-darkness wrote: So the question is why he escaped unnoticed then. No it’s not. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On March 22 2018 03:54 sc-darkness wrote: So the question is why he escaped unnoticed then. The guy was long gone by the time the investigation was complete. He returned to Russia less than a week after the poisoning, and it took a couple months for them to figure out the whos hows and whys. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On March 23 2018 06:43 sc-darkness wrote: Months? I thought it all happened this month. No, Litvinenko was poisoned 12 years ago. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21761 Posts
On March 23 2018 06:43 sc-darkness wrote: Months? I thought it all happened this month. There was a killing before with poison. There was a killing this month with nerve gas. In both cases the perpetrator probably left the country very shortly after the act, while the investigation was just starting. | ||
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
A man who filmed a pet dog giving Nazi salutes before putting the footage on YouTube has been convicted of committing a hate crime. Mark Meechan, 30, recorded his girlfriend's pug, Buddha, responding to statements such as "gas the Jews" and "Sieg Heil" by raising its paw. But police were alerted and he was arrested for allegedly committing a hate crime. The original clip had been viewed more than three million times on YouTube. Grossly offensive Meechan, of Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, went on trial at Airdrie Sheriff Court where he denied any wrong doing. He insisted he made the video, which was posted in April 2016, to annoy his girlfriend Suzanne Kelly, 29. But Sheriff Derek O'Carroll found him guilty of a charge under the Communications Act that he posted a video on social media and YouTube which was grossly offensive because it was "anti-semitic and racist in nature" and was aggravated by religious prejudice. Sheriff O'Carroll told the court he did not believe Meechan had made the video only to annoy his girlfriend and ruled it was anti-Semitic. Image copyrightPRESS TEAM He also said he believed Meechan - who was supported at court by Tommy Robinson, former leader of far-right group the English Defence League (EDL) - left the video on YouTube to drive traffic to other material he had on there. He added: "In my view it is a reasonable conclusion that the video is grossly offensive "The description of the video as humorous is no magic wand. "This court has taken the freedom of expression into consideration. "But the right to freedom of expression also comes with responsibility." Story raises some interesting questions. It's a YouTube-internet controversy with Nazis thrown in -- it's drawn plenty of the wrong attention. But I think you have to put all that aside. I'll admit to laughing at the pug's Nazi-"enthusiasm". The joke is, of course, based on the dog's lack of awareness. It's silly, and I shouldn't feel worried or judged for laughing at it. On the other hand, I do realize a lot use "it's a joke" to excuse what is simply hateful rhetoric. But even if this guy really were an actual Nazi, what he did with this dog and this video can not be illegal. It is crossing such a line to prosecute something like this. I'm a bit shocked to see this. I can think of so many other BBC comedy shows that make light of Nazis (Webb and Mitchell's "are we the badies?", Fawlty Tower's "don't talk about the war", etc, all very hilarious btw). Very strange prosecution and verdict, and I hope the guy appeals and wins. But it won't help if he keeps talking to Alex Jones and the EDL. It's strange to me, because I love Brit comedy for it's complete lack of censorship. Some of your comedians, who I think are very good, decent people, have hilarious routines of saying the wrongest things. Please don't ruin it. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23288 Posts
On March 23 2018 12:53 Leporello wrote: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43478925 Story raises some interesting questions. It's a YouTube-internet controversy with Nazis thrown in -- it's drawn plenty of the wrong attention. But I think you have to put all that aside. I'll admit to laughing at the pug's Nazi-"enthusiasm". The joke is, of course, based on the dog's lack of awareness. It's silly, and I shouldn't feel worried or judged for laughing at it. On the other hand, I do realize a lot use "it's a joke" to excuse what is simply hateful rhetoric. But even if this guy really were an actual Nazi, what he did with this dog and this video can not be illegal. It is crossing such a line to prosecute something like this. I'm a bit shocked to see this. I can think of so many other BBC comedy shows that make light of Nazis (Webb and Mitchell's "are we the badies?", Fawlty Tower's "don't talk about the war", etc, all very hilarious btw). Very strange prosecution and verdict, and I hope the guy appeals and wins. But it won't help if he keeps talking to Alex Jones and the EDL. It's strange to me, because I love Brit comedy for it's complete lack of censorship. Some of your comedians, who I think are very good, decent people, have hilarious routines of saying the wrongest things. Please don't ruin it. I can see the comedy, but I also think 'tough shit'. I don't know what the penalty is, but I'm perfectly fine with people having to do community service or pay a small fine if they make a joke like this. There's a lot of things I think are funny that I also think society should discourage, this is one of them. Not that I think they should lock him up and throw away the key or anything. It probably wouldn't have got as much static if he didn't repeat "gas the Jews" dozens of times too. If he went for the same thing with "Mein Fuhrer" or something a little less over the top I don't think it would have gotten to this point. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10757 Posts
Here he is imho 100% correct. That this should/could be a crime, is ridiculous beyond belief. Grow up. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18042 Posts
On March 23 2018 20:22 GreenHorizons wrote: I can see the comedy, but I also think 'tough shit'. I don't know what the penalty is, but I'm perfectly fine with people having to do community service or pay a small fine if they make a joke like this. There's a lot of things I think are funny that I also think society should discourage, this is one of them. Not that I think they should lock him up and throw away the key or anything. It probably wouldn't have got as much static if he didn't repeat "gas the Jews" dozens of times too. If he went for the same thing with "Mein Fuhrer" or something a little less over the top I don't think it would have gotten to this point. I think the video content itself is hugely important. There is absolutely *no* way the Fawlty Towers sketch cited could possibly be mistaken for something glorifying nazism. It is ridiculously over-the-top satire that, if any *serious* interpretation were to be given, would *still* not glorify nazism. Meanwhile, training your dog to do the nazi greeting any time you say an offensive slur might be funny to some, but if you take it seriously, you're left with someone repeating over and over to gas the jews. Claiming you did it "as a joke" has as much sway as if you yell "filthy nigger" at a black person in the street and then claim it was a joke. And that some people *do* find it funny doesn't change that. It's still a hate crime. E: Just adding that I don't think it matters whether the accused is an actual neo-nazi, or just, as claimed in court: Ross Brown, defending, said Meechan had only intended the video to be seen by a small group of friends and to annoy his girlfriend. He said the material had been leaked and gone viral but Police Scotland then wrongly pursued Meechan despite his later videos attempting to "set the record straight". How does something "get leaked" on YouTube? Either it's a public video, in which case it doesn't "get leaked": it's public. Or it's a private video, and then is impossible to "get leaked" unless someone copied it and made it public, but pretty sure that's not what happened here. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10757 Posts
How could you possibly mistake this for glorifying naziism? And btw. no one took it seirously, the scottish police just went in. There was no one complaining, there was no one offended or anything of that sort calling the police. FFS the Video is still on Youtube because even YouTube seems to think its ok... | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18042 Posts
On March 23 2018 21:28 Velr wrote: Have you watched the Video? How could you possibly mistake this for glorifying naziism? And btw. no one took it seirously, the scottish police just went in. There was no one complaining, there was no one offended or anything of that sort calling the police. FFS the Video is still on Youtube because even YouTube seems to think its ok... The bbc article didn't link it, so no. I haven't seen the video. E: I have now. That dog is cute. And the guy is obviously not serious. But I can sitll see how that is offensive. And "pro-Nazi" offensive stuff is, 80 years later, still something people should know better than to do. Hell, most European countries have a separate law all to itself in order to make extra-specially certain that anything that even comes close to nazi glorification is illegal. And this does fall under that. Also note that while I think it's wrong, and worthy of conviction, I don't think he deserves even a second of jailtime. There is obviously a difference between doing stupid offensive shit, and willfully glorifying nazism. This is very clearly the former, and shouldn't be punished as if it's the latter. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9209 Posts
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