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On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment.
Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave.
What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour.
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On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour.
What you are saying is highly hypothetical, I actually believe that the type of work made by the chinese is the type of work firms can't yet entirely replace with capital, which is why it's made elsewhere where the labor is cheaper. It's a question of substitution labor/capital, the idea that the technology nowadays is so advanced that we must accept a world with no job seems dubious to me ; the secular stagnation that we face right now is not made by technological advancement, but a lack of demand and a high level of inequalities (at least, for the main part).
Economist who argue around the evolution of technology are usually doing that the defend the current evolution of the global economy, like it is normal, like those level of inequalities are the most efficient way for our economy to function. For exemple, many economist believe the high level of inequality in the workplace has something to do with the high level of education needed to understand the subtlety of our modern technology (it's the idea of the "O-Ring" technology, of the name of the piece of the apollo space shuttle disaster : a very small piece that can completly destroy such a huge construction). Except when we look at facts high wages actually exist in services, like law and council, and not that much in scientific research or high technological fields.
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"I could've killed them all" that's top meme material
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On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more.
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On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour.
We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism.
On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more.
You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change.
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United States42883 Posts
On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more.
Nettles believes that he can read zerohedge and understand the global economy better than any hedge fund, economist or bank. He predicts crashes constantly and makes extreme claims based on single line arguments. You won't get him to see reason on this. He's basically a paranoid survivalist at this point
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On July 29 2016 11:24 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour. We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism. Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more. You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change.
The English workers outside of London would be more accurate I guess
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On July 29 2016 14:26 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 11:24 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour. We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism. On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more. You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change. The English workers outside of London would be more accurate I guess
When people say 'workers' they typically mean labourers and the working class. Those in London also voted for Brexit. As a whole London didn't even reach 60% for Remain, and in the working class areas there wasn't much in it.
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On July 29 2016 11:24 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour. We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism.
Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more. You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change.
You have been well educated by Tatcher. It's true that, if you put the entire history of UK (which is that of intelligence), then you're the country of free market. If your goal was free market, leaving europe was dumb.
If anything, the country of free market is the US.
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On July 29 2016 20:45 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 11:24 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour. We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism.
On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more. You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change. You have been well educated by Tatcher. It's true that, if you put the entire history of UK (which is that of intelligence), then you're the country of free market. If your goal was free market, leave europe was dumb. If anything, the country of free market is the US.
The EU is protectionist and prevents its member states from trading freely with the rest of the world. For example, they put enormous tariffs on the goods of African farmers in order to sustain European farmers. The EU also accounts for an ever-decreasing share of world trade. The UK still has every intention of pursuing free trade with Europe, but we also want it with the rest of the world.
And that's what I said. The US is now the #1 free market country, but it inherited that (along with most of it's geopolitical biases and responsibilities) from the UK.
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On July 29 2016 20:51 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 20:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 29 2016 11:24 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour. We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism.
On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more. You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change. You have been well educated by Tatcher. It's true that, if you put the entire history of UK (which is that of intelligence), then you're the country of free market. If your goal was free market, leave europe was dumb. If anything, the country of free market is the US. The EU is protectionist and prevents its member states from trading freely with the rest of the world. For example, they put enormous tariffs on the goods of African farmers in order to sustain European farmers. The EU also accounts for an ever-decreasing share of world trade. The UK still has every intention of pursuing free trade with Europe, but we also want it with the rest of the world.
The EU account for an ever decreasing share of the world trade because some other countries have better growth, that's it, and the UK is not really brilliant in comparaison to the rest of the world either.
The EU protect a few specific fields that do not work when they're too open - the protection of european agricultural goods has been done because, for a long time, the europe was dependant of eastern europe agricultural production (Russia being a big producer). That's it, for the rest of the production it is very open to free market.
If you believe it's good that you completly open your doors for foreign countries' agricultural production with such cheap cost like africa, you're nuts ; as soon as a crisis come by, you'll be cut with your source of food. The UK has had, for the longest time, laws to prevent high arrival of foreign goods, they only removed them (intelligently) when the price of agricultural goods was too high : it permitted those price to go down, because the national production could not keep up with the needs. Agricultural goods are too expensive in the UK today ? Or is that your own wages are shit with 0 hour contracts, lack of growth and all that ? Me think it's the second.
It was the "free market" country because it had a huge advantage over others in terms of production, not because it is in its blood. It's the difference between blindly believing in economic principles, and being intelligent. Keynes for exemple, argued for short term protection to increase the effect of the multiplicator in 1930. The US, with Trump and Sanders, is going back on the free market stance because they are losing it from it more and more.
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On July 29 2016 20:56 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 20:51 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 20:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 29 2016 11:24 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour. We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism.
On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more. You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change. You have been well educated by Tatcher. It's true that, if you put the entire history of UK (which is that of intelligence), then you're the country of free market. If your goal was free market, leave europe was dumb. If anything, the country of free market is the US. The EU is protectionist and prevents its member states from trading freely with the rest of the world. For example, they put enormous tariffs on the goods of African farmers in order to sustain European farmers. The EU also accounts for an ever-decreasing share of world trade. The UK still has every intention of pursuing free trade with Europe, but we also want it with the rest of the world. The EU account for an ever decreasing share of the world trade because some other countries have better growth, that's it, and the UK is not really brilliant in comparaison to the rest of the world either. The EU protect a few specific fields that do not work when they're too open - the protection of european agricultural goods has been done because, for a long time, the europe was dependant of eastern europe agricultural production (Russia being a big producer). That's it, for the rest of the production it is very open to free market. If you believe it's good that you completly open your doors for foreign countries' agricultural production with such cheap cost like africa, you're nuts ; as soon as a crisis come by, you'll be cut with your source of food. The UK has had, for the longest time, laws to prevent high arrival of foreign goods, they only removed them (intelligently) when the price of agricultural goods was too high : it permitted those price to go down, because the national production could not keep up with the needs. Agricultural goods are too expensive in the UK today ? Or is that your own wages are shit with 0 hour contracts, lack of growth and all that ? Me think it's the second. It was the "free market" country because it had a huge advantage over others in terms of production, not because it is in its blood. It's the difference between blindly believing in economic principles, and being intelligent. Keynes for exemple, argued for short term protection to increase the effect of the multiplicator in 1930. The US, with Trump and Sanders, is going back on the free market stance because they are losing it from it more and more.
I know that is the reason that the EU accounts for a decreasing share of world trade. Two points on that: one, there is no excuse for Europe's terrible growth. For Scandinavia, Germany and the UK, for example, it is inevitable that growth will be limited relative to somewhere like China, which has so much room to grow. But much of eastern Europe is in a similar position to China. That is where the growth should be coming from. Also, other highly developed regions (NA, AUS/NZ) are limited in the same way but still perform better in terms of growth. Secondly, the reason doesn't matter. It's about balancing whether you want to sacrifice access to the rest of the world (increasing share of world trade) for the sake of preferential access to Europe (decreasing share of world trade).
Also, I am not blindly in favour of free market economics. I can understand limited protectionism, particularly when an industry is likely to rebound from its current difficulties. Still, the UK is a greater beneficiary of free market economics than most, and was always arguing against EU protectionism (unlike France, which is considered one of the most protectionist countries in the bloc). The ability to set those boundaries on protectionism nationally is important. One frustrating instance where the EU got this completely wrong is that the UK was prevented from subsidising faster broadband for its countryside, as this was considered state aid, where in reality it was clearly infrastructural investment.
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Must have missed this but they are apparently removing CCTV cameras around Westminster.
Surely this is the area most likely to be targeted by suicide bombers?
Odd decision if you ask me.
https://next.ft.com/content/2a619ecc-27e5-11e6-8b18-91555f2f4fde#axzz4F8Fn4YYi
The local authority in London is going against conventional wisdom in the UK, which is thought to have one CCTV camera for every 13 citizens. Council officials plan to turn off and remove the 75-camera system from September. In addition to the running costs, the council wants to avoid spending £1.68m it had planned for upgrading what it says is an old and unreliable system...
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How would CCTV cameras help against suicide bombers?
CCTV cameras help in finding the perpetrators of crimes afterwards. They help in preventing crimes because people fear that they will get caught. Suicide bombers don't care if they are caught, and it is usually quite easy to figure out who the terrorist was afterwards, and doesn't matter that much anyways since he is already dead.
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On July 29 2016 21:54 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 20:56 WhiteDog wrote:On July 29 2016 20:51 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 20:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 29 2016 11:24 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour. We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism.
On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more. You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change. You have been well educated by Tatcher. It's true that, if you put the entire history of UK (which is that of intelligence), then you're the country of free market. If your goal was free market, leave europe was dumb. If anything, the country of free market is the US. The EU is protectionist and prevents its member states from trading freely with the rest of the world. For example, they put enormous tariffs on the goods of African farmers in order to sustain European farmers. The EU also accounts for an ever-decreasing share of world trade. The UK still has every intention of pursuing free trade with Europe, but we also want it with the rest of the world. The EU account for an ever decreasing share of the world trade because some other countries have better growth, that's it, and the UK is not really brilliant in comparaison to the rest of the world either. The EU protect a few specific fields that do not work when they're too open - the protection of european agricultural goods has been done because, for a long time, the europe was dependant of eastern europe agricultural production (Russia being a big producer). That's it, for the rest of the production it is very open to free market. If you believe it's good that you completly open your doors for foreign countries' agricultural production with such cheap cost like africa, you're nuts ; as soon as a crisis come by, you'll be cut with your source of food. The UK has had, for the longest time, laws to prevent high arrival of foreign goods, they only removed them (intelligently) when the price of agricultural goods was too high : it permitted those price to go down, because the national production could not keep up with the needs. Agricultural goods are too expensive in the UK today ? Or is that your own wages are shit with 0 hour contracts, lack of growth and all that ? Me think it's the second. It was the "free market" country because it had a huge advantage over others in terms of production, not because it is in its blood. It's the difference between blindly believing in economic principles, and being intelligent. Keynes for exemple, argued for short term protection to increase the effect of the multiplicator in 1930. The US, with Trump and Sanders, is going back on the free market stance because they are losing it from it more and more. I know that is the reason that the EU accounts for a decreasing share of world trade. Two points on that: one, there is no excuse for Europe's terrible growth. For Scandinavia, Germany and the UK, for example, it is inevitable that growth will be limited relative to somewhere like China, which has so much room to grow. But much of eastern Europe is in a similar position to China. That is where the growth should be coming from. Also, other highly developed regions (NA, AUS/NZ) are limited in the same way but still perform better in terms of growth. Secondly, the reason doesn't matter. It's about balancing whether you want to sacrifice access to the rest of the world (increasing share of world trade) for the sake of preferential access to Europe (decreasing share of world trade). Also, I am not blindly in favour of free market economics. I can understand limited protectionism, particularly when an industry is likely to rebound from its current difficulties. Still, the UK is a greater beneficiary of free market economics than most, and was always arguing against EU protectionism (unlike France, which is considered one of the most protectionist countries in the bloc). The ability to set those boundaries on protectionism nationally is important. One frustrating instance where the EU got this completely wrong is that the UK was prevented from subsidising faster broadband for its countryside, as this was considered state aid, where in reality it was clearly infrastructural investment.
I didn't respond yet because I think we agree and you just use the term free market to refer to something that's not free market. And I want to enlight that by pointing out something you wrote.
"One frustrating instance where the EU got this completely wrong is that the UK was prevented from subsidising faster broadband for its countryside, as this was considered state aid, where in reality it was clearly infrastructural investment."
Yes you are entirely right but THIS IS FREE MARKET. Free market is about letting the market find the most "optimal" course for production and trading, any kind of interference from the state is a step away from free market. So yes, in a free market economy the role of the state is restricted and any kind of subsidising is a form of "protectionnism". What is the difference between a tariff that increase the price of non UK goods by X % and a policy that reduce the price of UK goods by X % ? It's virtually the same. So the EU targetted some specific fields where the state was allowed to act (energy, water, that kind of fields) and, aside from those, nothing is accepted. That is the logic free market, it just goes beyond just reducing tariffs because tariffs are too obvious.
A country like China has low tariffs, but at the same time has a closed economy where the state control directly or indirectly a huge part of the production. They are, effectively, a very protective economy : you can't invest in China like you could in Britain. That's what people don't get, free market is an utopy that does not work. Countries that profit from low tariff usually play with various deals / laws / investment to give their firms the necessary tools to win in the global competition. The EU does not because it's a stupid ass idea, hence why we're being eaten.
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On July 31 2016 22:19 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2016 21:54 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 20:56 WhiteDog wrote:On July 29 2016 20:51 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 20:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 29 2016 11:24 bardtown wrote:On July 29 2016 04:16 RvB wrote:On July 28 2016 22:12 kollin wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
I think most Remainers are extremely empathetic, and see the Leave vote as working class people shooting themselves in the foot. Channelling unbridled rage against the establishment into support for Farage, Johnson and Gove is...just supporting the establishment. Working class and pensioners whose pension is protected by a triple lock. Funny how the ones nkt facing the consequences vote to leave. What they don'tget is that working class jobs won't come back with protectionism. Even if the UK closes itself completely most working class jobs which are done by the Chinese will be replaced by capital not labour. We are the free market country in Europe (and, prior to the US, in the world). Nobody voted for protectionism.
On July 29 2016 08:54 Shield wrote:On July 28 2016 19:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I just wanted to see more empathy from the remainders toward the people, especially outside London, that have been fucked over the past 10 years.A 10.4% fall in real wages over the past decade, while house prices have doubled or more, don't go calling people who voted leave racists or whatever because like in every election the main issue is economics.And these are the people paying interest on the 850 billion debt accrued by bailing out the banks back in 2008, can you see why they are angry with the establishment?.It's fucked.
If you talk about economy, you've already lost that argument. This has been discussed by top economists already. You can visit google to find out more. You're incapable of even making an argument. It recently emerged that three countries in Europe have seen a fall in real wages: Greece, Portugal and the UK. The economy works for migrants and big businesses, but not for the British workers. Unsurprisingly, the British workers voted for change. You have been well educated by Tatcher. It's true that, if you put the entire history of UK (which is that of intelligence), then you're the country of free market. If your goal was free market, leave europe was dumb. If anything, the country of free market is the US. The EU is protectionist and prevents its member states from trading freely with the rest of the world. For example, they put enormous tariffs on the goods of African farmers in order to sustain European farmers. The EU also accounts for an ever-decreasing share of world trade. The UK still has every intention of pursuing free trade with Europe, but we also want it with the rest of the world. The EU account for an ever decreasing share of the world trade because some other countries have better growth, that's it, and the UK is not really brilliant in comparaison to the rest of the world either. The EU protect a few specific fields that do not work when they're too open - the protection of european agricultural goods has been done because, for a long time, the europe was dependant of eastern europe agricultural production (Russia being a big producer). That's it, for the rest of the production it is very open to free market. If you believe it's good that you completly open your doors for foreign countries' agricultural production with such cheap cost like africa, you're nuts ; as soon as a crisis come by, you'll be cut with your source of food. The UK has had, for the longest time, laws to prevent high arrival of foreign goods, they only removed them (intelligently) when the price of agricultural goods was too high : it permitted those price to go down, because the national production could not keep up with the needs. Agricultural goods are too expensive in the UK today ? Or is that your own wages are shit with 0 hour contracts, lack of growth and all that ? Me think it's the second. It was the "free market" country because it had a huge advantage over others in terms of production, not because it is in its blood. It's the difference between blindly believing in economic principles, and being intelligent. Keynes for exemple, argued for short term protection to increase the effect of the multiplicator in 1930. The US, with Trump and Sanders, is going back on the free market stance because they are losing it from it more and more. I know that is the reason that the EU accounts for a decreasing share of world trade. Two points on that: one, there is no excuse for Europe's terrible growth. For Scandinavia, Germany and the UK, for example, it is inevitable that growth will be limited relative to somewhere like China, which has so much room to grow. But much of eastern Europe is in a similar position to China. That is where the growth should be coming from. Also, other highly developed regions (NA, AUS/NZ) are limited in the same way but still perform better in terms of growth. Secondly, the reason doesn't matter. It's about balancing whether you want to sacrifice access to the rest of the world (increasing share of world trade) for the sake of preferential access to Europe (decreasing share of world trade). Also, I am not blindly in favour of free market economics. I can understand limited protectionism, particularly when an industry is likely to rebound from its current difficulties. Still, the UK is a greater beneficiary of free market economics than most, and was always arguing against EU protectionism (unlike France, which is considered one of the most protectionist countries in the bloc). The ability to set those boundaries on protectionism nationally is important. One frustrating instance where the EU got this completely wrong is that the UK was prevented from subsidising faster broadband for its countryside, as this was considered state aid, where in reality it was clearly infrastructural investment. I didn't respond yet because I think we agree and you just use the term free market to refer to something that's not free market. And I want to enlight that by pointing out something you wrote. " One frustrating instance where the EU got this completely wrong is that the UK was prevented from subsidising faster broadband for its countryside, as this was considered state aid, where in reality it was clearly infrastructural investment." Yes you are entirely right but THIS IS FREE MARKET. Free market is about letting the market find the most "optimal" course for production and trading, any kind of interference from the state is a step away from free market. So yes, in a free market economy the role of the state is restricted and any kind of subsidising is a form of "protectionnism". What is the difference between a tariff that increase the price of non UK goods by X % and a policy that reduce the price of UK goods by X % ? It's virtually the same. So the EU targetted some specific fields where the state was allowed to act (energy, water, that kind of fields) and, aside from those, nothing is accepted. That is the logic free market, it just goes beyond just reducing tariffs because tariffs are too obvious. A country like China has low tariffs, but at the same time has a closed economy where the state control directly or indirectly a huge part of the production. They are, effectively, a very protective economy : you can't invest in China like you could in Britain. That's what people don't get, free market is an utopy that does not work. Countries that profit from low tariff usually play with various deals / laws / investment to give their firms the necessary tools to win in the global competition. The EU does not because it's a stupid ass idea, hence why we're being eaten.
There is no system that doesn't fall apart when you take it to its absolute extreme. There are many regulations in place to prevent a 'true' free market. In particular, governments tend to strictly regulate (or indeed nationalise) infrastructure interests. In the UK this includes healthcare, roads and, until recently, rail and postal services. There is a general perception in the UK that the government should regulate everything needed to ensure a basic standard of living for all citizens, and that the (not quite) free market takes place beyond those basics. That's how we end up with apparent contradictions like myself, believing both in strong capitalism and basic income.
From that perspective, the broadband question is a no brainer. It is a government investment to give people in the countryside equal access to the tools needed to compete in the free market. It's all about balance, and balance is best achieved by national governments, not broad brush policies at the European level.
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Interesting. Seems I'm wrong there, and people are just frustrated that they need the EU's permission before going ahead with it.
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Well it will a wake-up call for the leave voters when they see just what England is going to be like when the right wing of the conservative party has a free hand.
Also;
There was a programme on radio 4 the other day where they asked a load of small business owners about there staff and every single one of them said that they had tried to hire local English staff but that foreign workers were better, worked harder and where infinitely more motivated and productive.
Its not racism that makes the working class dis-like foreign workers its the fact that foreign workers are better employees than them in almost every measurable way.
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I doubt that. How much superior must foreign staff be to overcome language barriers?
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EPT
