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Active: 1752 users

Bestiality in Sweden soon to be illegal - Page 6

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nojok
Profile Joined May 2011
France15845 Posts
June 14 2013 09:31 GMT
#101
Does it mean I can sue dogs fapping on my leg?
"Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - Kuroky - Flap Flap Wings!
plogamer
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada3132 Posts
June 14 2013 09:32 GMT
#102
On June 14 2013 18:31 nojok wrote:
Does it mean I can sue dogs fapping on my leg?


whatajok
TheRidd
Profile Joined January 2011
713 Posts
June 14 2013 09:32 GMT
#103
On June 14 2013 18:24 Mentalizor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 18:18 syno wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:16 KwarK wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:15 Calliopee wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:11 KwarK wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:09 Calliopee wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:05 KwarK wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:51 Calliopee wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:38 KwarK wrote:
I strongly disagree with this change, if no animal is being harmed then who gives a fuck, people outrank animals anyway and the law has no place in the bedroom.


Using the same logic, would It be cool if I tucked my penis inside a woman who's passed out? I mean she won't get harmed - I make gentle loving and Ill use protection and she won't remember a thing. Also, it's a well-known fact that men outrank women in our day and age - just look at any statitistics - they'll confirm that woman are infact inferior to men. Guess Ill be hitting town tonight!

Sorry, clearly you're confused by your colossal amount of idiocy. When I said I was fine with this because no animal was being harmed I wasn't suggesting that that was the only way of judging whether something was right or wrong. Rape is wrong, even though it doesn't involve any animals at all. I brought up harm of animals because it is eminently relevant to this issue but it's actually less relevant to other issues such as rape which doesn't involve any animals at all. There are things which make things bad and in this case harm of animals would be one of them but in other cases we might use other factors. Hopefully that clears up my point for you so you can avoid making such incredibly, obscenely stupid straw men arguments in future.


I dont mind having this discussion - not that thers much to discuss, we think different about the subject, but if you can't play nice I'll go and spend time in another thread...

You think you were making an actual point but you didn't, instead what you did was brought up something that was not only an irrelevant straw man but also something that was incredibly personally offensive to me.


If I offended you with that post I'm sorry, but calling "X outranks Y and therefore X can do whatever it fucking likes" is in my eyes the worst kind of justification. And who are we to tell whos getting harmed in the process? Last time i checked animals (cept a few) didn't have intercourse for other reasons than reproduction. I agree with you; there are more aspects to it than that, but just because you can do something does in no way or form justify doing it.

If you believe that humans don't outrank animals then I have some bad news for you about where food comes from.

Well, that's called nature. The stronger survives. Eat, or be eaten.
Fucking animals is just sick and wrong, i don't know why we're even discussing about how that's right or wrong.


...you realize alot of people would say the same about same-sex marriage, right? Opinions vary - and yeah, it is important to question your standards every now and then

Man, in this day and age you have to be like very very very open minded. same-sex marriage, fair enough. fucking animals, hmm, ok i guess ?. But what's next ? I heard of some political party dudes a couple years ago, cant remember what country, that were trying to get sex with minors(boys) legalized. So i wonder where does this open minded thing has it's borders?
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
June 14 2013 09:33 GMT
#104
The only reason why bestiality would be morally wrong is that the animal does not give conscent.
But what if the animal clearly enjoys it? (lol)
Besides the conscent it is basicly nothing different from anny other sexual fetish or orientation, some of wich are now widely accepted (like homosexuality)
Annyway i dont realy care lol, its not weird they make a law for this despite it not beeing mainstream and a nobrainer.
Terrorism in the usa is not mainstream (at least i hope so) yet there are countless verry restrictive laws based on the terrorism.
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
June 14 2013 09:33 GMT
#105
On June 14 2013 18:18 SheaR619 wrote:
I think I watched a documentary a while back about some where in south america (could be wrong) where teen (boy) would fuck goat. Since it was very catholic country boy would fuck the goat and it seem pretty much socially acceptable in that area of the country. It goes on to say that boy do it so they can become better lover and to lose their virginity. Didnt know sweden was bad enough to be legally banned.


It was donkeys, and the country was Colombia. The documentary also seemed to say that it was very common in that rural area. Like when a bunch of kids are bored, they just go to the donkeys.
ॐ
narkissos
Profile Joined December 2011
198 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 09:35:02
June 14 2013 09:34 GMT
#106
On June 14 2013 18:31 nojok wrote:
Does it mean I can sue dogs fapping on my leg?


Perhaps the owner has a strict responsibility for damages caused by dogs

http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/20071150.htm


19 § En skada som orsakas av en hund skall ersättas av dess ägare eller innehavare, även om han eller hon inte vållat skadan

"Damage caused by a dog shall bee replaced by the owner even if he or she did not cause the damage."
Reason
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United Kingdom2770 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 09:40:34
June 14 2013 09:34 GMT
#107
On June 14 2013 18:28 eX Killy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 18:18 nttea wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:09 namste wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:05 Laserist wrote:
This is the creepiest thread that I ever saw. Strange people, strange discussions.


I second that. Really freaking strange if people say that banging non-human animals is ok.

So fucking them without harming them (which is what this law outlaws) should be punished(and while you didn't say it, someone brought up that consent apparently matters here) But factory farming and then slaughtering them just for the pleasure of EATING THEIR FLESH is obviously ok? What the fuck you really have to start thinking about what guides your sense of morality.

how can you justify bestiality by the fact that we breed them for food? you know that its just easier and more efficient to do that than to run around chasing them for hundreds of miles right. like somehow hunting them then eating them is more acceptable than breeding them then eating them.

maybe we should all hunt our own food from now on and people can fuck elephants in their free time, except that there wouldnt be any free time because we'd be running around chasing them.

*whooosh*

edit: I hate starting a sentence with because, so I won't, but you can justify it because it doesn't really make sense to completely disregard their "basic rights" and slaughter them to satisfy our physical hunger but not have sex with them to satisfy our sexual hunger, as if the reasoning behind it in any way changes the act itself.

"I had sex with a child"
"That's disgusting, you should go to jail"
"I didn't want to hurt them, I just really wanted to do it"
"Oh, that's okay then"

"I had sex with an animal"
"That's disgusting, you should go to jail"
"I didn't want to hurt them, I just really wanted to do it"
"Oh, that's okay then"

"I ate an animal"
"That's disgusting, you should go to jail"
"I didn't want to hurt them, I was just really hungry"
"Oh, that's okay then"
Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end of speech is not ostentation, but to be understood.
Calliopee
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark151 Posts
June 14 2013 09:34 GMT
#108
On June 14 2013 18:26 NukeD wrote:
Kwark I would say that is no way for a mod to behave really. That was really imature. The other guy wasnt offensive at all but even if he was you went overboard.

It's cool - I was trying to be clever by drawing an over the top comparison - my aplogies.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
June 14 2013 09:37 GMT
#109
On June 14 2013 18:27 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 18:26 NukeD wrote:
Kwark I would say that is no way for a mod to behave really. That was really imature. The other guy wasnt offensive at all but even if he was you went overboard.

He accused me of being fine with raping a girl because I said that animals are outranked by people.


Nah he wasnt, it was just a poor attempt at making a poor point.
sorry for dem one liners
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12632 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 09:41:59
June 14 2013 09:40 GMT
#110
well to be honest, in the more ancient years, farmers/their wives used to to do quite often and it wasn't regarded as super negative and f-ed up. I have read it is still fairly common in some rural China.
In some area (I think it is Mongolia?) the family shares the women and there is some the whole family would make love together and it is probably deemed illegal in most of the other countries

I guess it's just the country wants to separate itself from these less cultural acceptable actions to illegalise it.

no biggie, swedish girls are far too hot for anyone to even think about sex with animals
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
eohs
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States677 Posts
June 14 2013 09:41 GMT
#111
On June 14 2013 16:01 Orangered wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 16:00 TOCHMY wrote:
I've not much experience with beastiality... But I don't see why it should not be illegal

The issue is why need to legislate at all? Is it that mainstream in your country?

all i have to say is lambs are very soft... just saying...
WELCOME TO THE PARTY
Laserist
Profile Joined September 2011
Turkey4269 Posts
June 14 2013 09:42 GMT
#112
On June 14 2013 18:41 eohs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 16:01 Orangered wrote:
On June 14 2013 16:00 TOCHMY wrote:
I've not much experience with beastiality... But I don't see why it should not be illegal

The issue is why need to legislate at all? Is it that mainstream in your country?

all i have to say is lambs are very soft... just saying...


You made it harder to follow man....
“Are you with the Cartel? Because you’re definitely an Angel.”
aNGryaRchon
Profile Joined August 2012
United States438 Posts
June 14 2013 09:45 GMT
#113
On June 14 2013 18:27 Reason wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 18:24 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:16 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:58 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:36 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:31 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:16 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:15 wozzot wrote:
Eh, as long as I can still eat meat. I don't think animals can consent to being eaten either but whatever

Yeah this is the really funny thing and nttea mentioned it earlier.

We can enslave and/or consume them but make love to them? You sick bastard!

Make love? LOL you're ridiculous!

lol it might sound funny but I watched a documentary on this sort of thing and I've seen videos on the internet that confirm some people do genuinely make love to animals, whether you can imagine yourself doing so or not is irrelevant, it happens.

I didn't think it was possible, but you just manage to be more ridiculous than your earlier post?
Make love? Shall we go now and interview "couples" engaged in bestiality and ask how much they love each other to really feel the need to... make LOVE!!! lol how stupid is that!

You obviously know nothing about this topic so do us all a favour and stop posting asinine comments.

The most failed attempt at recovering from a stupid claim that people and animals can in fact make love.

Good lord making love is an expression synonymous with having sex, but usually implies an emotional connection or meaning behind the action than simply having sex.

Do you accept some people love animals?
Do you accept some people have sex with animals?

If the answer to both of those questions is yes then why is it so difficult for your infant mind to wrap itself around the concept that some people consider their intimate relations with an animal to be love making?

Seriously, stop being a massive penis.

Let's use definition then, and kill you with your own sword so to speak.

I am sure 99.99% of the time or more, people involved in bestiality don't allow a dog's or a horse's cock into their vagina, ass, or whatever orifice because they want to express that emotional connection with the animal. On the other side of the act, 100% of the time the animal doesn't care otherwise.

There is no way out of this for you unfortunately. Just admit that you are wrong, that bestiality is not an act of love, and then learn from it and hope that you can develop better reasoning skills in the future.

Massive Facepalm.
Power overwhelming!!!
CYFAWS
Profile Joined October 2012
Sweden275 Posts
June 14 2013 09:45 GMT
#114
This is an absolute bullshit, populist, toothless law.

The only POSSIBLE difference it would make, is if you catch someone in the act which NEVER happens. Otherwise you need the physical or psychological injury to the animal to prove it anyways.

OF COURSE having sex with animals is generally bad, as well as disgusting, but that is not a basis for any civilized juridical system.

Should it be illegal to assfuck your cat? hell yeah, and it already is.
To get on all four and let your pony shag you? why the hell would it be? It's gross ass shit and more than a little crazy, but there is no victim and no government, or no majority, should EVER be allowed to pull that kind of shit off. It's absolutely 100% corrupt and immoral.

So, we're going to outlaw harmless stuff with the purpose of catching people doing harmful stuff that is already illegal, with the added kicker that it won't work. We will not catch any more horse rapists.
Good job swedish jurisdiction, really.

(also, the people that want to fuck animals can just go to the finnish and danish bordello farms)
pHenakism
Profile Joined June 2013
United States4 Posts
June 14 2013 09:51 GMT
#115
On June 14 2013 18:05 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 17:51 Calliopee wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:38 KwarK wrote:
I strongly disagree with this change, if no animal is being harmed then who gives a fuck, people outrank animals anyway and the law has no place in the bedroom.


Using the same logic, would It be cool if I tucked my penis inside a woman who's passed out? I mean she won't get harmed - I make gentle loving and Ill use protection and she won't remember a thing. Also, it's a well-known fact that men outrank women in our day and age - just look at any statitistics - they'll confirm that woman are infact inferior to men. Guess Ill be hitting town tonight!

Sorry, clearly you're confused by your colossal amount of idiocy. When I said I was fine with this because no animal was being harmed I wasn't suggesting that that was the only way of judging whether something was right or wrong. Rape is wrong, even though it doesn't involve any animals at all. I brought up harm of animals because it is eminently relevant to this issue but it's actually less relevant to other issues such as rape which doesn't involve any animals at all. There are things which make things bad and in this case harm of animals would be one of them but in other cases we might use other factors. Hopefully that clears up my point for you so you can avoid making such incredibly, obscenely stupid straw men arguments in future.

What if I told you you can deliver your message across better if you refrain from name calling and insults.
Reason
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United Kingdom2770 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 09:54:49
June 14 2013 09:51 GMT
#116
On June 14 2013 18:45 aNGryaRchon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 18:27 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:24 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:16 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:58 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:36 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:31 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:16 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:15 wozzot wrote:
Eh, as long as I can still eat meat. I don't think animals can consent to being eaten either but whatever

Yeah this is the really funny thing and nttea mentioned it earlier.

We can enslave and/or consume them but make love to them? You sick bastard!

Make love? LOL you're ridiculous!

lol it might sound funny but I watched a documentary on this sort of thing and I've seen videos on the internet that confirm some people do genuinely make love to animals, whether you can imagine yourself doing so or not is irrelevant, it happens.

I didn't think it was possible, but you just manage to be more ridiculous than your earlier post?
Make love? Shall we go now and interview "couples" engaged in bestiality and ask how much they love each other to really feel the need to... make LOVE!!! lol how stupid is that!

You obviously know nothing about this topic so do us all a favour and stop posting asinine comments.

The most failed attempt at recovering from a stupid claim that people and animals can in fact make love.

Good lord making love is an expression synonymous with having sex, but usually implies an emotional connection or meaning behind the action than simply having sex.

Do you accept some people love animals?
Do you accept some people have sex with animals?

If the answer to both of those questions is yes then why is it so difficult for your infant mind to wrap itself around the concept that some people consider their intimate relations with an animal to be love making?

Seriously, stop being a massive penis.

Let's use definition then, and kill you with your own sword so to speak.

I am sure 99.99% of the time or more, people involved in bestiality don't allow a dog's or a horse's cock into their vagina, ass, or whatever orifice because they want to express that emotional connection with the animal. On the other side of the act, 100% of the time the animal doesn't care otherwise.

There is no way out of this for you unfortunately. Just admit that you are wrong, that bestiality is not an act of love, and then learn from it and hope that you can develop better reasoning skills in the future.

Massive Facepalm.


You are sure 99.99% of the time based on what evidence?
100% of the time the animal doesn't care otherwise, based on what evidence?

I didn't declare that bestiality is an act of love.

You need to adjust your attitude very quickly and learn that your own ill-formed and baseless opinions are not universal truths and that if you want to have a discussion or post on this website you'll need to form and express your opinions with a little more humility and a little less pomposity.

You'll notice my original post was made in a jovial nature; enslave was used instead of domesticate, consume was used instead of eat and making love was used instead of having sex.

Learn to appreciate context.
Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end of speech is not ostentation, but to be understood.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 09:56:51
June 14 2013 09:53 GMT
#117
On June 14 2013 18:45 aNGryaRchon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 18:27 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:24 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:16 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:58 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:36 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:31 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:16 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:15 wozzot wrote:
Eh, as long as I can still eat meat. I don't think animals can consent to being eaten either but whatever

Yeah this is the really funny thing and nttea mentioned it earlier.

We can enslave and/or consume them but make love to them? You sick bastard!

Make love? LOL you're ridiculous!

lol it might sound funny but I watched a documentary on this sort of thing and I've seen videos on the internet that confirm some people do genuinely make love to animals, whether you can imagine yourself doing so or not is irrelevant, it happens.

I didn't think it was possible, but you just manage to be more ridiculous than your earlier post?
Make love? Shall we go now and interview "couples" engaged in bestiality and ask how much they love each other to really feel the need to... make LOVE!!! lol how stupid is that!

You obviously know nothing about this topic so do us all a favour and stop posting asinine comments.

The most failed attempt at recovering from a stupid claim that people and animals can in fact make love.

Good lord making love is an expression synonymous with having sex, but usually implies an emotional connection or meaning behind the action than simply having sex.

Do you accept some people love animals?
Do you accept some people have sex with animals?

If the answer to both of those questions is yes then why is it so difficult for your infant mind to wrap itself around the concept that some people consider their intimate relations with an animal to be love making?

Seriously, stop being a massive penis.

Let's use definition then, and kill you with your own sword so to speak.

I am sure 99.99% of the time or more, people involved in bestiality don't allow a dog's or a horse's cock into their vagina, ass, or whatever orifice because they want to express that emotional connection with the animal. On the other side of the act, 100% of the time the animal doesn't care otherwise.

There is no way out of this for you unfortunately. Just admit that you are wrong, that bestiality is not an act of love, and then learn from it and hope that you can develop better reasoning skills in the future.

Massive Facepalm.

dude, just watch bestiality porn. the horses just want to get the fuck out of there or they don't/can't even get hard and are tormented for hours untill they do. the 100% of the time the animal doesn't care is bs. you ASSUME it doesn't care.

edit: they get a mare in heat then have the horse sniff it, just so they could film 5-10 min of something.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
Oshuy
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands529 Posts
June 14 2013 09:54 GMT
#118
What if you intend to kill them anyway after (in order to eat them of course), is part of a ritual killing still illegal (it's part of my religion, honnest) ? What about killing them before (I wasn't cruel to the animal, it's a carcass) ? Should I be weary of what I do with roasted chicken when in Sweden ?
Coooot
eX Killy
Profile Joined November 2012
Taiwan906 Posts
June 14 2013 09:57 GMT
#119
On June 14 2013 18:34 Reason wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 18:28 eX Killy wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:18 nttea wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:09 namste wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:05 Laserist wrote:
This is the creepiest thread that I ever saw. Strange people, strange discussions.


I second that. Really freaking strange if people say that banging non-human animals is ok.

So fucking them without harming them (which is what this law outlaws) should be punished(and while you didn't say it, someone brought up that consent apparently matters here) But factory farming and then slaughtering them just for the pleasure of EATING THEIR FLESH is obviously ok? What the fuck you really have to start thinking about what guides your sense of morality.

how can you justify bestiality by the fact that we breed them for food? you know that its just easier and more efficient to do that than to run around chasing them for hundreds of miles right. like somehow hunting them then eating them is more acceptable than breeding them then eating them.

maybe we should all hunt our own food from now on and people can fuck elephants in their free time, except that there wouldnt be any free time because we'd be running around chasing them.

*whooosh*

edit: I hate starting a sentence with because, so I won't, but you can justify it because it doesn't really make sense to completely disregard their "basic rights" and slaughter them to satisfy our physical hunger but not have sex with them to satisfy our sexual hunger, as if the reasoning behind it in any way changes the act itself.

"I had sex with a child"
"That's disgusting, you should go to jail"
"I didn't want to hurt them, I just really wanted to do it"
"Oh, that's okay then"

"I had sex with an animal"
"That's disgusting, you should go to jail"
"I didn't want to hurt them, I just really wanted to do it"
"Oh, that's okay then"

"I ate an animal"
"That's disgusting, you should go to jail"
"I didn't want to hurt them, I was just really hungry"
"Oh, that's okay then"

what, that would mean a vegan who is against the killing of animals for food would be morally sound when they claim that bestiality is immoral.
telling it like it is
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12632 Posts
June 14 2013 09:58 GMT
#120
On June 14 2013 18:45 aNGryaRchon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2013 18:27 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:24 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 18:16 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:58 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:36 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:31 aNGryaRchon wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:16 Reason wrote:
On June 14 2013 17:15 wozzot wrote:
Eh, as long as I can still eat meat. I don't think animals can consent to being eaten either but whatever

Yeah this is the really funny thing and nttea mentioned it earlier.

We can enslave and/or consume them but make love to them? You sick bastard!

Make love? LOL you're ridiculous!

lol it might sound funny but I watched a documentary on this sort of thing and I've seen videos on the internet that confirm some people do genuinely make love to animals, whether you can imagine yourself doing so or not is irrelevant, it happens.

I didn't think it was possible, but you just manage to be more ridiculous than your earlier post?
Make love? Shall we go now and interview "couples" engaged in bestiality and ask how much they love each other to really feel the need to... make LOVE!!! lol how stupid is that!

You obviously know nothing about this topic so do us all a favour and stop posting asinine comments.

The most failed attempt at recovering from a stupid claim that people and animals can in fact make love.

Good lord making love is an expression synonymous with having sex, but usually implies an emotional connection or meaning behind the action than simply having sex.

Do you accept some people love animals?
Do you accept some people have sex with animals?

If the answer to both of those questions is yes then why is it so difficult for your infant mind to wrap itself around the concept that some people consider their intimate relations with an animal to be love making?

Seriously, stop being a massive penis.

Let's use definition then, and kill you with your own sword so to speak.

I am sure 99.99% of the time or more, people involved in bestiality don't allow a dog's or a horse's cock into their vagina, ass, or whatever orifice because they want to express that emotional connection with the animal. On the other side of the act, 100% of the time the animal doesn't care otherwise.

There is no way out of this for you unfortunately. Just admit that you are wrong, that bestiality is not an act of love, and then learn from it and hope that you can develop better reasoning skills in the future.

Massive Facepalm.

lots of stats pulled out of your ass lol
99.99% of the cases? I am not too sure about that. How about doing something exciting and stimulating together? Is that not the emotional connection?
If the animal truely doesn't care about sex, then what about all those humping legs action that dogs love to do and cats love to making mating sound and keep blocking my way.
seriously, you are talking as if you can fuck a horse easily. A fucking kick would end your life if it doesn't want it.

looks like you are ending yourself with your own sword
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
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