On December 18 2020 10:26 RowdierBob wrote: I wonder how long it will be for a major government to ban businesses accepting Crypto as a form of payment? Things like pornhub accepting crypto as payment will only reinforce the negativity about crypto being the domain of child porn peddlers, crims in general and terrorists (not saying I agree but this is the justification they will use).
They'll need to introduce measures as soon as the total flow of btc reaches some value and the government is losing serious money. But right now, btc or any crypto isn't suited at all for scaling towards taking the place of cash or banks. It's mostly a store of value, with a couple of shady businesses using it to sell stuff. As soon as btc will be your main 'wallet' and you only convert to cash when something odd can't be paid for in btc, the government will need to find a way to regulate crypto. But i can't see this happening when crypto transactions: - are not instant (at all) - are subject to getting cancelled when a fork is resolved - aren't refundable, in case of mistakes - are not insured, in case of crime - are impossible to scale globally, we saw full blocks/jams in 2017 and hardly anyone uses it yet - don't have any features for interest, loans or credit - are too techical for general public to understand well, which is necessary, currently. - tricky to use, compared to a credit card (last 2 are easiest to fix) Who wants to buy a house or car using crypto when a single mistake loses you all the money? I think anyone sensible would pay that 2-4% fee a credit card company asks and get rid of the entire list of problems above.
Yup those bitcoin fees in 2017 were crazy.I paid $30 per transaction a few times, which means if you have less than 30$ in your account you can't really do anything with the money there unless you deposit more in there. Additionally since it's not centralised and controlled by government if someone dies that cryptocurrency account is pretty much inaccessible unless a password was left somewhere with other peoples knowledge (a risk in itself).
Tax law here treats cryptocurrency as an investment rather than an actual currency, which means if i buy 10 bitcoin cash at the start of year and buy one coffee every day for the year i technically need to calculate 365 x capital gains for my tax return.Whether regular users of crypto here actually do all that i don't know but it stops me doing much actual trading with it, so i just hold 5k worth as a curiosity and occasionally buy stuff with it.
In my country, it's also an investment, so part of your possessions (so it's essentially after income taxes). But here, you do have to pay a wealth tax on any possessions over a certain limit, which you only have to calculate once a year. No need to recalculate after every cup of coffee.
On December 18 2020 10:26 RowdierBob wrote: I wonder how long it will be for a major government to ban businesses accepting Crypto as a form of payment? Things like pornhub accepting crypto as payment will only reinforce the negativity about crypto being the domain of child porn peddlers, crims in general and terrorists (not saying I agree but this is the justification they will use).
They'll need to introduce measures as soon as the total flow of btc reaches some value and the government is losing serious money. But right now, btc or any crypto isn't suited at all for scaling towards taking the place of cash or banks. It's mostly a store of value, with a couple of shady businesses using it to sell stuff. As soon as btc will be your main 'wallet' and you only convert to cash when something odd can't be paid for in btc, the government will need to find a way to regulate crypto. But i can't see this happening when crypto transactions: - are not instant (at all) - are subject to getting cancelled when a fork is resolved - aren't refundable, in case of mistakes - are not insured, in case of crime - are impossible to scale globally, we saw full blocks/jams in 2017 and hardly anyone uses it yet - don't have any features for interest, loans or credit - are too techical for general public to understand well, which is necessary, currently. - tricky to use, compared to a credit card (last 2 are easiest to fix) Who wants to buy a house or car using crypto when a single mistake loses you all the money? I think anyone sensible would pay that 2-4% fee a credit card company asks and get rid of the entire list of problems above.
Yup those bitcoin fees in 2017 were crazy.I paid $30 per transaction a few times, which means if you have less than 30$ in your account you can't really do anything with the money there unless you deposit more in there. Additionally since it's not centralised and controlled by government if someone dies that cryptocurrency account is pretty much inaccessible unless a password was left somewhere with other peoples knowledge (a risk in itself).
Tax law here treats cryptocurrency as an investment rather than an actual currency, which means if i buy 10 bitcoin cash at the start of year and buy one coffee every day for the year i technically need to calculate 365 x capital gains for my tax return.Whether regular users of crypto here actually do all that i don't know but it stops me doing much actual trading with it, so i just hold 5k worth as a curiosity and occasionally buy stuff with it.
In my country, it's also an investment, so part of your possessions (so it's essentially after income taxes). But here, you do have to pay a wealth tax on any possessions over a certain limit, which you only have to calculate once a year. No need to recalculate after every cup of coffee.
You would have to. Using it to buy coffee is considered a sale of the investment and so you would have to record the value of the coffee you received in trade as an investment gain (less your basis). It’s logical but also makes cryptos other than stable coins poor currencies.
Under a capital gains tax yes but The Netherlands doesn't have one. We only have a wealth tax which looks at private assets - liabilities at the start of the year. You pay a percentage of the net assets as a tax. It's irrelevant for the tax whether the assets are in cash, crypto, stocks etc.
On December 18 2020 10:26 RowdierBob wrote: I wonder how long it will be for a major government to ban businesses accepting Crypto as a form of payment? Things like pornhub accepting crypto as payment will only reinforce the negativity about crypto being the domain of child porn peddlers, crims in general and terrorists (not saying I agree but this is the justification they will use).
They'll need to introduce measures as soon as the total flow of btc reaches some value and the government is losing serious money. But right now, btc or any crypto isn't suited at all for scaling towards taking the place of cash or banks. It's mostly a store of value, with a couple of shady businesses using it to sell stuff. As soon as btc will be your main 'wallet' and you only convert to cash when something odd can't be paid for in btc, the government will need to find a way to regulate crypto. But i can't see this happening when crypto transactions: - are not instant (at all) - are subject to getting cancelled when a fork is resolved - aren't refundable, in case of mistakes - are not insured, in case of crime - are impossible to scale globally, we saw full blocks/jams in 2017 and hardly anyone uses it yet - don't have any features for interest, loans or credit - are too techical for general public to understand well, which is necessary, currently. - tricky to use, compared to a credit card (last 2 are easiest to fix) Who wants to buy a house or car using crypto when a single mistake loses you all the money? I think anyone sensible would pay that 2-4% fee a credit card company asks and get rid of the entire list of problems above.
Yup those bitcoin fees in 2017 were crazy.I paid $30 per transaction a few times, which means if you have less than 30$ in your account you can't really do anything with the money there unless you deposit more in there. Additionally since it's not centralised and controlled by government if someone dies that cryptocurrency account is pretty much inaccessible unless a password was left somewhere with other peoples knowledge (a risk in itself).
Tax law here treats cryptocurrency as an investment rather than an actual currency, which means if i buy 10 bitcoin cash at the start of year and buy one coffee every day for the year i technically need to calculate 365 x capital gains for my tax return.Whether regular users of crypto here actually do all that i don't know but it stops me doing much actual trading with it, so i just hold 5k worth as a curiosity and occasionally buy stuff with it.
In my country, it's also an investment, so part of your possessions (so it's essentially after income taxes). But here, you do have to pay a wealth tax on any possessions over a certain limit, which you only have to calculate once a year. No need to recalculate after every cup of coffee.
You would have to. Using it to buy coffee is considered a sale of the investment and so you would have to record the value of the coffee you received in trade as an investment gain (less your basis). It’s logical but also makes cryptos other than stable coins poor currencies.
Maybe in the US, but not here. We pax taxes over the size of the investment, since the government has specified an expected investment gain (which is sometimes too high, sometimes too low). You don't pax taxes over the actual gains (unless you're a major stakeholder). Afaik at least, not a professional. Edit: RvB beat me to it.
Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s cool, deals with a lot of the wealth issues in the US where taxes are only owed after liquidation. So if Bezos has a hundred billion of Amazon stock but doesn’t sell any then no taxes owed. A wealth tax is a better system in many ways, though it would amount to forced liquidation of a percentage of investments each year which is what the US system is trying to avoid.
On December 19 2020 01:09 KwarK wrote: Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s cool, deals with a lot of the wealth issues in the US where taxes are only owed after liquidation. So if Bezos has a hundred billion of Amazon stock but doesn’t sell any then no taxes owed. A wealth tax is a better system in many ways, though it would amount to forced liquidation of a percentage of investments each year which is what the US system is trying to avoid.
What is bad about a limited amount of forced liquidation? Surely economically speaking you want money to move around, not sit still doing nothing.
On December 19 2020 01:09 KwarK wrote: Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s cool, deals with a lot of the wealth issues in the US where taxes are only owed after liquidation. So if Bezos has a hundred billion of Amazon stock but doesn’t sell any then no taxes owed. A wealth tax is a better system in many ways, though it would amount to forced liquidation of a percentage of investments each year which is what the US system is trying to avoid.
What is bad about a limited amount of forced liquidation? Surely economically speaking you want money to move around, not sit still doing nothing.
Money invested isn't doing nothing, nor is it even money, it's whatever you bought and it's actively doing whatever the thing it is does. If I spend a million dollars buying a meadow for grazing then I have zero dollars and a big meadow and I don't want to have to sell 2% of my meadow each year to pay the wealth taxes. But I don't really disagree if I'm honest, I think it's probably more frequently a good policy than a bad one.
On December 19 2020 01:09 KwarK wrote: Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s cool, deals with a lot of the wealth issues in the US where taxes are only owed after liquidation. So if Bezos has a hundred billion of Amazon stock but doesn’t sell any then no taxes owed. A wealth tax is a better system in many ways, though it would amount to forced liquidation of a percentage of investments each year which is what the US system is trying to avoid.
What is bad about a limited amount of forced liquidation? Surely economically speaking you want money to move around, not sit still doing nothing.
I don't see how taxes achieve that. Money moving into the governments coffers doesn't mean it's necessarily going to benefit you or anyone not employed or subsidized by the government. And if you're subsidized by the government, you're technically stealing from everyone who isn't.
The question whether the stealing is morally sound depends on whether it ensures the recipients survival, basic quality of life or ability to fulfill a vital function in society. When the vital function becomes the survival of the government at any cost, that's when you get a parasitic form of socialism that relies on keeping citizens powerless, or ignorant. Can't have a problem when you don't realize it.
While preventing excessive accumulation of wealth is good, do you know if in NL it's also ensured that the tax is going to the right places? My pocket would seem like a good place, if I were to decide that (anecdotally speaking).
On December 19 2020 01:09 KwarK wrote: Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s cool, deals with a lot of the wealth issues in the US where taxes are only owed after liquidation. So if Bezos has a hundred billion of Amazon stock but doesn’t sell any then no taxes owed. A wealth tax is a better system in many ways, though it would amount to forced liquidation of a percentage of investments each year which is what the US system is trying to avoid.
What is bad about a limited amount of forced liquidation? Surely economically speaking you want money to move around, not sit still doing nothing.
Money invested isn't doing nothing, nor is it even money, it's whatever you bought and it's actively doing whatever the thing it is does. If I spend a million dollars buying a meadow for grazing then I have zero dollars and a big meadow and I don't want to have to sell 2% of my meadow each year to pay the wealth taxes. But I don't really disagree if I'm honest, I think it's probably more frequently a good policy than a bad one.
But if you earn money from the grazing in some way (like having cows graze and selling milk/meat) that can pay for the wealth tax on the meadow, at least in theory.
That is what I was trying to get at. You don't want someone sitting on a piece of land doing nothing with it, you want them to build something on it that creates jobs or use it for agriculture ect.
On December 19 2020 01:09 KwarK wrote: Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s cool, deals with a lot of the wealth issues in the US where taxes are only owed after liquidation. So if Bezos has a hundred billion of Amazon stock but doesn’t sell any then no taxes owed. A wealth tax is a better system in many ways, though it would amount to forced liquidation of a percentage of investments each year which is what the US system is trying to avoid.
The way our tax system is designed it doesn't really do that. If you have more than 5% of the shares in a company it's not considered as an asset for the wealth tax. You pay a 26% tax rate on dividends/ capital gains out of that company. Starting a company isn't hard so it's pretty easy for the rich to avoid the wealth tax. Our wealth tax mostly manages to tax the middle class not the rich.
On December 19 2020 01:09 KwarK wrote: Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s cool, deals with a lot of the wealth issues in the US where taxes are only owed after liquidation. So if Bezos has a hundred billion of Amazon stock but doesn’t sell any then no taxes owed. A wealth tax is a better system in many ways, though it would amount to forced liquidation of a percentage of investments each year which is what the US system is trying to avoid.
The way our tax system is designed it doesn't really do that. If you have more than 5% of the shares in a company it's not considered as an asset for the wealth tax. You pay a 26% tax rate on dividends/ capital gains out of that company. Starting a company isn't hard so it's pretty easy for the rich to avoid the wealth tax. Our wealth tax mostly manages to tax the middle class not the rich.
Sold what i had of bitcoin today (around 0.1) , it's up another $10k in the past 2 weeks to 33k now. Happy with 3x return from when i bought it, wouldn't surprise me to see a big correction shortly. Picked up more bitcoin cash from the proceeds.
finally happening, it only took 12 years for the financial industry to figure out there isn't much BTC left.
Its bitter sweet because i know so many people that got wrecked playing this market.
Take it from me, i've learnt this BTC is really a long term game, its not different from playing long game terran in sc, just slow, lock down the expansions down and you will win.
do the math, 21 million BTC, with many lost forever and many already bought up by longer term holders, this things going above 100k and will be future savings technology.
Finite <> valuable I have fewer than 21 million farts left to share with the world and many of them have already been lost forever. Would you pay me $100k to start bottling them for you?
On January 09 2021 02:07 zvx wrote: finally happening, it only took 12 years for the financial industry to figure out there isn't much BTC left.
Its bitter sweet because i know so many people that got wrecked playing this market.
Take it from me, i've learnt this BTC is really a long term game, its not different from playing long game terran in sc, just slow, lock down the expansions down and you will win.
do the math, 21 million BTC, with many lost forever and many already bought up by longer term holders, this things going above 100k and will be future savings technology.
gl and gg, were going to the moon!
It's a speculative bubble, you can make money if you time it right but you could also lose your shirt.
I have investments in crypto but also shares, physical precious metals and property.All the 'Moon' stuff i am seeing from crypto bugs screams bubble to me.And after looking into how tether is propping up the market and watching XRP collapse 70% due to lawsuits that just adds to that feeling.
BTC has the name recognition but it's a bad crypto due to slow transaction speeds and high transaction fees (currently around $10-15 per transaction yes?).Even in crypto space, far better options long term IMO.
On January 09 2021 02:07 zvx wrote: finally happening, it only took 12 years for the financial industry to figure out there isn't much BTC left.
Its bitter sweet because i know so many people that got wrecked playing this market.
Take it from me, i've learnt this BTC is really a long term game, its not different from playing long game terran in sc, just slow, lock down the expansions down and you will win.
do the math, 21 million BTC, with many lost forever and many already bought up by longer term holders, this things going above 100k and will be future savings technology.
gl and gg, were going to the moon!
It's a speculative bubble, you can make money if you time it right but you could also lose your shirt.
I have investments in crypto but also shares, physical precious metals and property.All the 'Moon' stuff i am seeing from crypto bugs screams bubble to me.And after looking into how tether is propping up the market and watching XRP collapse 70% due to lawsuits that just adds to that feeling.
BTC has the name recognition but it's a bad crypto due to slow transaction speeds and high transaction fees (currently around $10-15 per transaction yes?).Even in crypto space, far better options long term IMO.
On January 09 2021 02:10 KwarK wrote: Finite <> valuable I have fewer than 21 million farts left to share with the world and many of them have already been lost forever. Would you pay me $100k to start bottling them for you?
If people want your fart then they can pay for that but you gotta create a market for that.
That's why we have technology to figure out prices called online markets. BTC just so happens to be the price it is because we've been trading it online for over 10 years. (BTC didnt have market early days)
On January 09 2021 02:07 zvx wrote: finally happening, it only took 12 years for the financial industry to figure out there isn't much BTC left.
Its bitter sweet because i know so many people that got wrecked playing this market.
Take it from me, i've learnt this BTC is really a long term game, its not different from playing long game terran in sc, just slow, lock down the expansions down and you will win.
do the math, 21 million BTC, with many lost forever and many already bought up by longer term holders, this things going above 100k and will be future savings technology.
gl and gg, were going to the moon!
It's a speculative bubble, you can make money if you time it right but you could also lose your shirt.
I have investments in crypto but also shares, physical precious metals and property.All the 'Moon' stuff i am seeing from crypto bugs screams bubble to me.And after looking into how tether is propping up the market and watching XRP collapse 70% due to lawsuits that just adds to that feeling.
BTC has the name recognition but it's a bad crypto due to slow transaction speeds and high transaction fees (currently around $10-15 per transaction yes?).Even in crypto space, far better options long term IMO.
Lol that chart,its very deceptive.
Why does the tech part of that chart (nasdaq) end in 2003? The nasdaq is still there and is now 3 times higher then the peak of 2000. And the same goes for other parts of that chart like gold,china or us housing. Their price development didnt stop at the end of their "bubble".
In some ways btc is the ultimate bubble,artificial scarcity of a digital product vs an always increasing supply of money. As long as there is trust and acceptance there is value but it seems that the best opportunitys are behind us. It went from a few dollars to 40k dollars,a 10.000 times increase. Or a 1000 times increase measured from 400 dollar which wasnt even that long ago. It for sure wont increase 10.000 times or even 1000 times from this level again though even doubling your money wouldnt be a bad return.
On January 11 2021 17:38 Chrono000 wrote: def interesting data but this is money we are talking about. Primordial part of our life that is changing and i think its impossible to messure.
On January 09 2021 02:07 zvx wrote: finally happening, it only took 12 years for the financial industry to figure out there isn't much BTC left.
Its bitter sweet because i know so many people that got wrecked playing this market.
Take it from me, i've learnt this BTC is really a long term game, its not different from playing long game terran in sc, just slow, lock down the expansions down and you will win.
do the math, 21 million BTC, with many lost forever and many already bought up by longer term holders, this things going above 100k and will be future savings technology.
gl and gg, were going to the moon!
It's a speculative bubble, you can make money if you time it right but you could also lose your shirt.
I have investments in crypto but also shares, physical precious metals and property.All the 'Moon' stuff i am seeing from crypto bugs screams bubble to me.And after looking into how tether is propping up the market and watching XRP collapse 70% due to lawsuits that just adds to that feeling.
BTC has the name recognition but it's a bad crypto due to slow transaction speeds and high transaction fees (currently around $10-15 per transaction yes?).Even in crypto space, far better options long term IMO.
Well the bitcoiners don't see it as money they see it as 'Digital Gold' or an investment, unless you're buying a lambo. When you're paying $15 per transaction to buy a cup of coffee it's clearly not viable as money.Yet other cryptos like BCH have a fee of $0.006 per transaction. https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin cash-transactionfees.html
So in terms of scaling and widescale adoption there are far better options than Bitcoin core.It should also be said that governments will crack down and regulate cryptos more when they threaten the established financial system, which will be within the next couple of years.Already happening with XRP SEC lawsuit like I said.So personally I wouldn't look 10 years ahead.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/HCQd8f1/bitcoin-mother-of-all-bubbles.jpg)
